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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug 2017, 21:03 
cuneiform
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I always said to myself that if I ever create languages and cultures for a conworld, I want the conworld to be a mirrored earth, nothing more. This saves time (for me as a perfectionist without motivation) because I would spend ages creating the continents and I only have to worry about the climate being right. My goal is for the climate to be as realistically and detailed as possible but I don't think I am able to pull that off alone. I would be very happy if someone could help me with this.

This would be the "conworld" then:
Spoiler: show
Image


I looked at some tutorials at Cartographers' Guild but it's a lot and I don't know if I did everything right so I wanted to ask you. The rainfall is also very very basic and not detailed at all because I just wanted to do it quickly to post it here. Anyways, here's everything I have so far:

Pressure/Winds January
Rainfall January

Pressure/Winds July
Rainfall July

And here's what I think the climates are so far:
Spoiler: show
Image

  • South America's climate is probably just mirrored along the Andes? So Northern Chile (Atacame desert) is green and Northern Argentina is desert while Southern Argentina (Patagonian desert) is green.
  • North America resembles Europe so Québec is very standard European temperate climate and Florida could be like Baja California with the Southern US being very mediterranean or even drier than that?
  • Africa is practically the same but I think Morocco could be different but I don't know how? Somalia could be wetter as well as the Arabian peninsula but the Arabian peninsula might still be mostly desert?
  • Europe is frozen except for the Mediterranean Sea but I don't know how warm/cold it would be there.
  • India is the same except mirrored. The monsoon in the West probably is weaker because the ground rises way slowlier.
  • Indonesia is still a jungle.
  • I have absolutely no idea about Asia. Help is really needed there because I thought about placing important cultures there. Is China a desert? Are Japan, Korea and Kamchatka temperate and could be this "conworld's" Europe?
  • I think Australia is still a desert inland but the East could be greener because the mountains don't block the rain?
  • Greenland and Antarctica are obviously the same.

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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug 2017, 21:59 
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I am impressed with:
* how much work you were willing to do
* how you still thought of it as avoiding work
* how much of it you completed
* how good it all looks
!!!!

I doubt I could help you.
Unless encouragement counts as help.
'Cause I can say "Way to go!"

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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug 2017, 12:29 
sinic
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This is a great idea! I'll try and give some more detailed comments later because I've just spent a good while trying to figure out climates for my map, but initial observations are:

I think it's accurate overall.

Europe I think would basically be like the East coast of northern China/Japan/Korea - that is, hot summers and cold, mostly dry winters due to the continental influence. Spain and Morocco are probably more subtropical than mediterranean/desert, similar to US East coast on similar latitudes, because this is where the High and Low fronts meet, creating unstable weather (= more rain).

The Caribbean and Central America falls within the 'desert' latitudes, especially as they have winds blowing eastwards to them, but being islands this probably isn't as pronounced, so they may be more rainforest/savannah.

I don't think your mediterranean area in the US should be as large - they are usually quite limited regions. Basically around New York should be the mediterranean area. Texas, Florida etc. would probably be desert moving into arid steppe.

China is probably now mostly desert - it has become the new Sahara. Winds blowing Eastward from a high pressure zone are usually very dry at these latitudes (e.g. Atacama, Sahara).

Japan, Korea and North East China (Liaoning Peninsula) as well as possibly Vladivostok are probably now mediterranean, moving up towards temperate. I imagine Eastern Russia (Western in your map) would be much more temperate, especially if we assume is there is also a kind of Gulf Stream heading in that direction. I really like the idea of a mediterranean Japan and Korea actually!

South America is probably a lot drier now - using the Sahara as an analogue, West coast with winds blowing onshore from high pressure around those latitudes are very dry. The desert would likely continue until it hits the Andes. The East coast would be a lot wetter, but also create a rain shadow, meaning the West (or what was the East) is now a lot drier. The Atacama is probably now no longer desert, though.

I am unsure about Arabia - in real life, it receives dry winds from the Sahara and the Eurasian landmass, and even though the ITCZ is close to the southern half, it is still very arid. In your map, it is probably a bit more monsoonal, so, wetter summers. In winter, it is receiving winds from the Central Asia which are dry.

I think for a more realistic climate zone for this area, we need a more detailed map of the winds would help, as then you can decide where they are blowing from, and if they are blowing onshore/offshore/parallel to shore. I was confused for a long time as to why Somalia, supposedly in rainforest/monsoon/savannah latitudes is actually mostly steppe and desert. The reason is because the winds either come from the arid interior, or blow parallel to its coast, not onshore.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug 2017, 18:12 
cuneiform
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Thank you for your comments!

Comments:
Spoiler: show
eldin raigmore wrote:
I doubt I could help you.
Unless encouragement counts as help.
'Cause I can say "Way to go!"
Of course, encouragement always motivates me and I really need motivation for this! [:P]
Davush wrote:
This is a great idea! I'll try and give some more detailed comments later [...], but initial observations are:
I think you're initial observations are very detailed already! I think trying to find out the climates of a mirrored Earth like this is interesting from both a conlanging and general perspective just like this one site that tried multiple things with moving our Earth upside etc. Too bad I always forget the name of it. [:'(]
Davush wrote:
Europe I think would basically be like the East coast of northern China/Japan/Korea
I expected it to be very cold in general, but that might be to people saying Europe will be very cold if the Gulf Stream wouldn't exist.
Davush wrote:
I don't think your mediterranean area in the US should be as large - they are usually quite limited regions. Basically around New York should be the mediterranean area.
Looking at it again, you're right. I placed the mediterranean climate too far down south.
Davush wrote:
China is probably now mostly desert - it has become the new Sahara.
That's interesting to hear. I didn't expect it to really be such a giant desert but it's probably like I just said about America. Placed my climate guesses too far south again!
Davush wrote:
South America is probably a lot drier now
Looks like it is, I focused on South America for now using Pixie's tutorial (althouth the last step seems to be wrong by now, but I still used it for now). The Andes really catch a lot of rain.
Davush wrote:
I think for a more realistic climate zone for this area, we need a more detailed map of the winds would help, as then you can decide where they are blowing from, and if they are blowing onshore/offshore/parallel to shore.
The winds were very hard for me and I based it off of an Earth wind map and changed it accordingly. I'm not sure if I am able to do it detailed for a regions like Arabia. [:S] They still seem to be coming from mostly continental regions so it probably will still be a desert.



I worked on South America's climate using Pixie's tutorial and this is what I have so far. I reworked the rain and added a bit more rain at the coast in July and cleaned it up a bit. Bad thing is I used the same colour Pixie uses in her tutorial which is exactly the same colour as the oceans. [>_<]

Left is the rain, right is the temperature. The whiter the rain, the wetter it is and I think the temperature should be obvious.

January:
Spoiler: show
ImageImage


July:

Spoiler: show
ImageImage


The center of the continent is very dry and this is mostly because of the Andes catching all the rain that would go all over the Amazon. I'm not sure about the Brazilian plateau in the (now) West. Would it stop the rain from going inland that much? The continent just looks so so dry in my opinion. [:S]

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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug 2017, 19:53 
sinic
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After looking at it some more, I have a few more comments. Of course, these are just based on what I have learnt by reading tutorials and information from real world examples - don't feel like you have to implement anything! They are just suggestions based on how I would probably do it if I were making a similar map. [:D]

I think the ITCZ zone in summer should not extend as far as the Tibetan plateau. The actual ITCZ zone does not really go above 20 degrees in the real world, Tibet is 30+. The great amount of land on a west > east gradient in the real world pushes it higher towards India and China, but the reversed world does not have this amount of land near the equator going west > east. In my opinion, the ITCZ on your map in summer would more or less follow the equator, maybe rising slightly around India, and peaking around the East of Africa (the Sahara) as before that point it is mostly water around the equator. Similarly for the Americas, it would probably not extend much further than Central America.

Consequently, the monsoon will not affect India as much, probably leading to a semi-arid climate overall (or even desert), but the Sahara will definitely be smaller now. So with that in mind, the Eastern part of Sahara (on your map) would probably be monsoonal/subtropical (China-like) rather than desert, getting a bit drier inland.

Scandinavia is probably much colder now, more like Siberia. The UK will probably be receiving mostly continental winds, so it will have much colder drier winters. The more western parts of Central Asia in temperate latitudes are probably wetter and more European-like in climate now, getting drier the further east you go.

For South America, I think the desert area will actually be quite large. The Brazilian plateau is more or less 10-30 latitude, west coast, with more or less constant equator-ward winds, which have already lost moisture, or are dry - which is perfect desert conditions. In July, the high pressure system is mostly blowing offshore and equator wards, water will be dumped at the Andes coast. The landmass is not big enough for a massive low pressure in January (summer), so it is still quite dry. Really, in this configuration it is very similar to non-reversed Africa at similar latitudes.


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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug 2017, 01:40 
cuneiform
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Davush wrote:
I think the ITCZ zone in summer should not extend as far as the Tibetan plateau. The actual ITCZ zone does not really go above 20 degrees in the real world, Tibet is 30+. The great amount of land on a west > east gradient in the real world pushes it higher towards India and China, but the reversed world does not have this amount of land near the equator going west > east. In my opinion, the ITCZ on your map in summer would more or less follow the equator, maybe rising slightly around India, and peaking around the East of Africa (the Sahara) as before that point it is mostly water around the equator. Similarly for the Americas, it would probably not extend much further than Central America.
Oh, I didn't know a west > east gradient has influence on the ITCZ. I actually copied it from this map. The ITCZ fluctuates a lot in this map so I tried to keep the fluctuation down a bit. I'll definitely change it in India. And well, concerning South America I think I'll steer a middle course between the map and your suggestion. So basically I'll lift it up to the north a bit while still touching South America. This makes the ITCZ rain zones overlap more, the region gets wetter in general and there's more rainforest inland (look at the map down below to understand [:P]).
Davush wrote:
Consequently, the monsoon will not affect India as much, probably leading to a semi-arid climate overall (or even desert), but the Sahara will definitely be smaller now. So with that in mind, the Eastern part of Sahara (on your map) would probably be monsoonal/subtropical (China-like) rather than desert, getting a bit drier inland.
I definitely expected India not to have a monsoon, but the smaller Sahara makes me happy, to be honest! Less desert always makes me happy though!
Davush wrote:
For South America, I think the desert area will actually be quite large. The Brazilian plateau is more or less 10-30 latitude, west coast, with more or less constant equator-ward winds, which have already lost moisture, or are dry - which is perfect desert conditions. In July, the high pressure system is mostly blowing offshore and equator wards, water will be dumped at the Andes coast. The landmass is not big enough for a massive low pressure in January (summer), so it is still quite dry. Really, in this configuration it is very similar to non-reversed Africa at similar latitudes.
It's already quite large with my current ITCZ zones and it will only get bigger after that. Do coasts get no rain at all when they're affected by offshore winds or will there still be a little bit because of the sea? Because the north coast might get quite dry then.



So this is the current climate map of South America. I missed a lot of climates in the north but I'll rework the map anyways. I used the colours of this map but I also wrote down the major climates on the map for quicker reading.

Spoiler: show
Image

  • The Andes block all the rain from going inland so there is a lot of rainforest in the East and the West is severely dry so all the rain forest is gone except for the coastal part.
  • The south is somehow very mediterranean? That probably has to change, it seems way too far down to be mediterranean.


Here are the things that will probably change:
Spoiler: show
Image

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug 2017, 11:06 
sinic
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This is a fun project - I look forward to seeing how you place your conlangs and cultures!

Regarding the ITCZ - what I meant was that the presence of a very large landmass on the equator which continues across and upwards pushes the ITCZ upwards as the land is hotter than water. In your map, however, East Asia (i.e. the 'peak' of the ITCZ in the real world) is far above the equator with a lot of ocean beneath it, so the ITCZ doesn't get a 'chance' to move upwards until it hits significant land, Africa in your case. I think keeping it more or less semi-permanently over the top of South America is fine.

As for coasts - desert is often found on west coasts, in fact, the Atacama desert is the driest in the world, despite being on a coast. There are a few reasons, but: if offshore winds have travelled a large distance in arid latitudes, they probably bring no rain. There is also another important phenomenon which keep coasts dry, and it is related to 'upwelling' of cold currents - where upwelling occurs, there is not much evaporation and hence no precipitation. In the real world these winds tend to blow parallel to the coasts as well.

I think your map is good overall, the main thing I noticed was the belt of steppe between savanna and rainforest. This wouldn't really happen - the transition is usually steppe > savannah > rainforest. The ITCZ latitudes will be wet all over, even inland.

The desert would probably reach the coast and the mediterranean zone would be higher. I don't think there would be a green subtropical zone before the mediterranean on the west coast.

I think the extended rainforest along the Andes is very nice and realistic. The mountains attract all the water, and so the wet area is brought further south.

I have made a quick map of where I think the climate zones would be roughly. Feel free to ignore it, of course! I think the main thing in your map is the subtropical zone bordering the desert on the west coast - this doesn't happen in the real world. In my current map, I realised the arid regions were particularly large, but it helped me keep in mind that many successful civilisations actually began in quite arid regions. [:D]

South American Climates:
Spoiler: show
Image


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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug 2017, 21:29 
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Davush wrote:
This is a fun project - I look forward to seeing how you place your conlangs and cultures!
Thank you, and I hope you will keep commenting. It's a lot of fun discussing this!
Davush wrote:
so the ITCZ doesn't get a 'chance' to move upwards until it hits significant land, Africa in your case.
Ah I get it, that makes sense!
Davush wrote:
There is also another important phenomenon which keep coasts dry, and it is related to 'upwelling' of cold currents - where upwelling occurs, there is not much evaporation and hence no precipitation. In the real world these winds tend to blow parallel to the coasts as well.
Davush wrote:
The desert would probably reach the coast [...]
So there would be no rain in the west at all? I put a lot of rain in that place actually because wind blows directly onto the mountains there. If winds coming from cold currents blow inland, there will be no rain? Even with mountains that catch the rain?
Davush wrote:
I think your map is good overall, the main thing I noticed was the belt of steppe between savanna and rainforest. This wouldn't really happen - the transition is usually steppe > savannah > rainforest. The ITCZ latitudes will be wet all over, even inland.
Yeah, I thought that was weird, too. The ITCZ wasn't rainy enough but I'll definitely fix that ASAP. But then, there is still a lot of rain missing because of the Andes blocking the rain.
Davush wrote:
I have made a quick map of where I think the climate zones would be roughly.
To be honest, that's how I actually expected my map to turn out. [:D]

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PostPosted: Mon 28 Aug 2017, 06:02 
mayan
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even as far north as Peru in our timeline with our continent placement, the western coast gets lots and lots of fog and mist...even if there isn't lots of rain. (people and plants there actually collect dew and fog up there)

and wouldn't the Antarctic current/winds bring something up along the west/east coasts in the lands' new position?

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PostPosted: Mon 28 Aug 2017, 10:45 
sinic
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The ITCZ band is rainy overall (or monsoonal) because it is a band of almost constant low pressure - the moisture is 'self-sustaining' in a way, which is one of the reasons why the amazon is so wet. The Andes of the northern half shouldn't affect the savannah/rainforest zone as the lTCZ low pressure pressure bands are wet regardless.

As for the western desert - I think the winds are actually more likely to be blowing northwards towards the equator, so parallel to the coast, not directly onshore. I think South America has quite weak winds inland overall, as the trade winds get pushed towards the equator on both sides when they hit land. It might help to think of your western desert as the Atacama, just extended. The Atacama is on the same latitudes, west coast, but receives almost no precipitation, even though it is bordered by the Andes which are even higher than the Brazilian plateau.

This map might help: https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Featu ... ern_rt.gif

If you really don't want the desert along the coast, I suppose you could always drag the semi-arid zone down a bit - the elevated portion might have a climate similar to the Yemeni highlands in that case. I.e. mostly dry but enough rain which can support limited agriculture.

@Keenir - That's interesting, and it actually sounds like it could be a good setting for something. Lots of mist and fog in a desert/arid place...
The cold current from the Antarctic actually helps prevent precipitation at the horse latitudes due to upwelling, but probably makes the southern tip a bit cooler than it might be otherwise. [:)]


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PostPosted: Mon 28 Aug 2017, 13:25 
cuneiform
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Keenir wrote:
and wouldn't the Antarctic current/winds bring something up along the west/east coasts in the lands' new position?
Do you mean like this?

Image

Davush wrote:
As for the western desert - I think the winds are actually more likely to be blowing northwards towards the equator, so parallel to the coast, not directly onshore. I think South America has quite weak winds inland overall, as the trade winds get pushed towards the equator on both sides when they hit land. It might help to think of your western desert as the Atacama, just extended. The Atacama is on the same latitudes, west coast, but receives almost no precipitation, even though it is bordered by the Andes which are even higher than the Brazilian plateau.

This map might help: https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Featu ... ern_rt.gif
I read more about cold currents and I get it now. It's reasonable that the area is very dry. I still made a map and I put the wind pattern of the map you linked on top of it. The wind kind of hits the mountains in the red circles though, so I expect it might be a little bit wetter there? Also not much. There are tall enough for mountain rain in the real world (1200-2800m). The green circle has wind blowing parallel to the coast so I agree that there will be a desert. Concerning the arrow with the question mark: In combination with the picture above based on Keenir's assumption, is it realistic for the winds to blow so far inland and cool down the area a bit?
Davush wrote:
@Keenir - That's interesting, and it actually sounds like it could be a good setting for something. Lots of mist and fog in a desert/arid place...
That's true. Could be called something kitschy along the lines of "Place of Lost Souls" in the surrounding languages with many tales of people going missing when they enter the area! [:D]

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PostPosted: Mon 28 Aug 2017, 14:28 
sinic
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I think the horse latitudes are always quite arid - the air has already lost its moisture, as well as this belt being more or less a semi-permanent high pressure zone with weak winds in general - this is why nearly all west coasts around 20-35 latitudes are desert even if the winds are onshore and there are mountains - there is just not enough precipitation to fall. Those red areas you highlighted could have some precipitation, I think, probably with a climate similar to Yemen (some of which is surprisingly green - although this is related to the Indian monsoon system as well, but oh well [:D] ).

The question mark area looks like it is directly in the typical desert latitudes, and it is also flat, which means hotter temperatures, which means desert is more likely. The winds in this area are likely to be weak in general (are do appear so in the real world winds map), so not much precipitation as they are
already blowing in an arid region. You can start to get more precipitation at 30+ latitudes when the westerlies become dominant.

I think having a reduced desert is reasonable though - in general it is not receiving as much continental winds as the Sahara in the real world, and South America seems to have some unique systems which influence its climate a lot as well as. The east of the Andes in the real world is very wet because of the ITCZ influence, a warm current and a general low pressure system which meets with the Atlantic high, the extensive rainforest further increases precipitation. Whether a flipped south America would be similar is guesswork I suppose... [:D]


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PostPosted: Mon 28 Aug 2017, 19:06 
mayan
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ixals wrote:
Keenir wrote:
and wouldn't the Antarctic current/winds bring something up along the west/east coasts in the lands' new position?
Do you mean like this?

Image


oh.
well that's bizarre, then...because I was always taught that the reason there are penguins and rich feeding waters in the Galapagos, is because of the Antarctic current going up the Andean coast (also making it possible for lots of fishermen to live in the arid coast)

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PostPosted: Wed 30 Aug 2017, 13:53 
sinic
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I think this is correct. The antarctic circumpolar current is drawn up into the Peru current, but it also continues flowing in its usual direction, with some minor currents coming from it (such as Falklands current).

http://www.indiana.edu/~geol105/images/ ... lation.jpg


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PostPosted: Thu 14 Sep 2017, 00:48 
cuneiform
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Just a quick post! I used Azelor's tutorial and I got results very similar to yours, Davush. There are still some weird things (tundra in all of the Andes, no steppe between desert and tropical savannah) but I think I'm done with the majority now. I only need to clean the climate map up and then I'll either start the next continent or I'll try to think more about cultures/languages/etc. of that continent.

Spoiler: show
Image

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