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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 01:16 
sinic
sinic

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Bimetallism (that is, if you're not clear, allowing two different metals as legal tender simultaneously, with a fixed exchange rate between them) was largely, probably entirely, extinct by 1900.


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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 01:36 
cleardarkness
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Salmoneus wrote:
For instance, Spain fell from global dominence in part because it controlled the world's silver supply. Spain was part of the silver standard, along with most of the world, but had a lot more silver than anybody else. As there was more silver (ie money) in Spain than in, for example, Germany, there was higher inflation in Spain - more money available means higher prices, so prices were higher in Spain where the silver was and lower in Germany where there was less silver. This meant that Spaniards bought German goods, because German goods were cheaper - goods flowed into Spain from the rest of Europe, and silver flowed out of Spain into Europe. As there was a constant supply of new silver from the New World mines, Spain was constantly importing. This made it theoretically "richer", because, as everybody could see, they had oodles of cash, and bought lots of nice things for themselves. In the long run, however, it meant that, for centuries, Spanish industry could not compete. This increased unemployment, and discouraged investment, making the economy weaker, and allowing the rest of Europe to race ahead. It's a good example of bad economics, because Spain was the country everybody was trying to emulate: mercantilist theory said that a country should aim to accumulate bullion. Spain had the most bullion - but it suffered as a result.


Imports do not weaken an economy.

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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 03:03 
sinic
sinic

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Spoken like a good neoliberal. But it's plainly false. Imports do weaken an economy, pro tanto, because they crowd out domestic supply. The neoliberal theory is that if those imports contribute to a restructuring of global production along the lines of comparative advantages (and/or technological progress, or theoretically an increase in social or human capital, I guess, though that part's not mentioned much), the global production increase will outweigh the local reversal.

However, in the case of Spain, the neoliberal reasoning does not apply, for several reasons:
a) transport costs were relatively high, meaning that even an allocation of labour more in line with comparative advantage could still be unproductive - and countries could not simply maximise their profits by pursuing comparative advantage, because they could remain at an absolute disadvantage (the higher the transport costs, the less Ricardo's theories apply). So neither the global gain from restructuring nor the ability of the country to restructure its own industry apply in the way that your theory demands;
b) the neoliberal theory assumes that trade deficits are inherently short-term, because they cannot be sustained long-term because the country would run out of money; in the case of Spain, however, the supply of money was for all meaningful purposes infinite in extent (if not in volume produced per year);
c) the neoliberal theory assumes that trade deficits are self-limiting, because a large imbalance will lead to an adjustment in the exchange rate; however, Spain was on the silver standard, which is to say that the exchange rate was fixed and could not be changed. As a result, imports did not lower the value of the currency, lowering imports, as Friedman points out that they should with floating exchange rates;
d) Spain was not, technologically or socially, modern. This is important because it meant it could not substitute in the way a modern country can. When America imports, and its domestic industries suffer, that's OK, because American labour can instead be invested in, say, service industries, or in high-tech industries. Spain had no high-tech industries, and very limited service industries. Therefore, its excess labour force remained trapped in agriculture - a sector with very low productivity gains to be made. As a result, there was little domestic investment, and as a result the economy did not grow.

------

Let's summarise that by comparing America with Spain. America shows us what should happen:

- America imports. Americans have more stuff more cheaply, and thus have more excess money.
- Americans spend that money not only on buying more stuff from abroad, but also on buying stuff that cannot be got from abroad: haircuts, complicated financial products, massages, supercomputers, and so on.
- Americans lose jobs in manufacturing, but gain jobs in massage parlours, banks, and computer labs.
- American investors see that these sectors can grow, and so invest in them. This encourages a healthy level of financial trade, that oils the machinery of production.
- Because America is now doing what America does best, and Outland is doing what Outland does best, global production increases, or prices decrease, so more people can get more stuff for the same price, including Americans.
- If America now does what it does best, it will actually make more money for itself thanks to comparative advantage.
- If deficits look like getting too big (ie if the above isn't enough to make up for the loss of manufacturing jobs), that's OK - that'll just force down the value of the dollar, which'll make it more expensive to import into the US (or less expensive to export from the US), so the deficit will remain at a manageable level.
Look, imports don't hurt the economy!

But then let's look at Spain:
- Spain imports. Spaniards can get more stuff more cheaply and thus have more money.
- Spaniards spend that extra money on... well, they don't, they just turn their silver into silverware and keep it locked up. Why? Because they'd love to spend their money on supercomputers, but they don't exist yet. And there isn't all that much call for masseurs, because, for a start, only a tiny, tiny fraction of the population lives within ten miles of a viable massage parlour site. With very small cities (towns, by modern standards), most service industries are not viable (even if they are technologically and educationally possible in the first place).
- Spaniards lose jobs in manufacturing. In fact, a lot of them lose jobs in agriculture. Or they don't, because they're mostly de facto serfs with limited mobility but strong family ties, so they remain on the family farm, but they can no longer sell their crops at a price that enables them all to survive (because foreign grain is so much cheaper).
- Spanish entrepeneurs do not invest in the new industries because there aren't any. They may perhaps invest abroad. More likely these 'entrepeneurs' (ie local gentry) just hoard their silver as silverware, because there's nothing else that offers a comparable rate of return.
- Because the trade imbalance is not created by underlying production costs but simply the accidental location of a massive silver mine, Spain is not necessarily doing what it does best, and nor is the rest of the world, so global production is not necessarily increasing (indeed, if more money is being lost to the 'friction' of transport costs, production may actually be decreasing), so the world isn't getting richer.
- Because high transport costs get in the way of comparative advantage, Spain can't just do what it does best (even if it had an economy that was fast enough to respond, despite lack of modern communication speeds and a highly decentralised economic system).
- Deficits can keep getting bigger and bigger, as foreign industry (and agriculture) get invested in more and more, driving down foreign production costs, while domestic inflation pushes domestic production costs up. This should produce currency revaluation, but since Spain's currency is pegged to silver, and so is everyone else's, Spain is essentially using the same currency as everybody else, and cannot revalue, so the problem cannot go away.
- Finally, if devaluation is impossible, deflation should occur, which would make the Spanish economy more competitive. However, deflation cannot occur, because more and more money is being created.

------

At least, that's what I remember being taught.

Can you explain why "imports do not weaken an economy" is true in a way that does not rely on free exchange rates, low transport costs, finite money supplies, and a workforce that can be easily reconfigured into industries that did not exist in the time-frame in question?


-------

[Basically, Spain was an anti-Iceland. You know how you can't get inflation and deflation together? Well Iceland got them both. That was because the financial system collapsed (ie no investment, ie deflation), but at the same time the exchange rate forced the cost of imports up (inflation). With floating exchange rates, a sufficiently large shock to domestic demand, causing a lack of domestic investment, co-existed with inflation driven by the high cost of imports. Well, Spain had the opposite: with fixed exchange rates, a sufficiently large inflationary surge in domestic demand caused a lack of domestic investment driven by the low cost of imports. A lot of what we generally assume about economics is based on operating within certain parameters - Iceland violated those paremeters by having an unexpectedly large systemic financial failure, while Spain violated them by having an unprecedently large financial windfall coupled with fixed exchange rates and a rigid economy]


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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 07:17 
cleardarkness
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The problem arises because you're working in a demand-driven model. Where do you think supercomputers and massage parlours came from in the first place?

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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 11:33 
roman
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Joined: Sat 06 Nov 2010, 09:04
Posts: 660
Quick question, if markets are weeks/months apart, how severe can such issues as money transfer be then?

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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 13:03 
sinic
sinic

Joined: Mon 19 Sep 2011, 19:37
Posts: 152
Micamo wrote:
The problem arises because you're working in a demand-driven model. Where do you think supercomputers and massage parlours came from in the first place?


...I think they came from investment, which is what you don't have if you're Spain. They don't just pop into existence out of nowhere. The supply is constrained by the circumstances (ie it's premodern and non-urbanised, so things made possible by modernity and urbanisation are not possible).

Your comment makes no sense at all, and you refuse to actually engage substantively. I assume your cryptic, undefended one-liners are just a strange form of trolling? If not, feel free to offer some justification for your view.

--------

I should make clear to the audience that my view is the standard one. Here, for instance, is The Straight Dope:
Quote:
...Among other things the higher prices meant Spanish goods became uncompetitive on European markets. Even the Spanish themselves began buying foreign products, resulting in a lot of cash leaving the country. In addition, inflation stifled local investment, with the grandees spending their dough on conspicuous consumables instead.

For the latter part of the 1500s and on into the 1600s Spain was a debtor nation, spending more abroad than it took in. The result was a net outflow of gold and silver. Attempts were made to restrict the export of precious metals, but without much success. In the end it all simply dribbled away. The problem was that the conquest of the New World left Spain with a lot more money, but not that much more wealth, if you follow me. They didn't realize that until too late, and suffered centuries of poverty as a consequence.


This traditional theory, dating back to Adam Smith, has since been questioned - but the questions are all about whether New World silver was the main reason for the inflation (versus, say, coinage debasement), and even whether the inflation existed (or rather, whether Spain really had higher inflation than the rest of Europe). I don't think the basic idea (inflation leads to imports, lead to stagnation of local production) has been challenged.

Cue trite one-liner...


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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 15:04 
runic
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Salmoneus wrote:
Your comment makes no sense at all, and you refuse to actually engage substantively. I assume your cryptic, undefended one-liners are just a strange form of trolling?

Salmoneus wrote:
Cue trite one-liner...

Now, I'm no mod', but I think I'll preëmpt them and refer you to the rules...

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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Sun 15 Jan 2012, 14:24 
roman
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Bimetallism had its issues as established but I am curious, trimetallism would probably make it even worse am I right?

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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Wed 09 May 2012, 21:58 
rupestrian
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As for bimetallism, there's a good deal of research that suggests it play a positive role in keeping prices reasonable. If one metal inflates or deflates, the other serves as an automatic stabilizer of sorts.

And yet, something to consider - in my opinion, there's no need to limit yourself to gold and silver. For a currency to work it needs just four things: it must be storable, portable, recognizable, and (ideally) divisible. While most economies in the world used gold and silver, countless other currencies have been used throughout history, such as cowrie shells, ivory, and ingots.

And while it's so well explored it borders on the cliche, the island of Yap had a fascinating currency called Rai Stones, big slabs of limestone that were carried away from neighboring Palau on canoes (often at great risk). The slabs were stored in one's house, and partially transferred through small scratchings.

Furthermore, some rather advanced civilizations had no currencies at all. The Incan civilization functioned purely on command - to buy goods, workers were given "worker credits".

I think a conworld based on worker credits or Rai Stones would be much more interesting than one based on gold and silver.


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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Wed 09 May 2012, 22:09 
fire
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In "India extra Gangem", that is, southeastern Asia east of India, wasn't there a civilization for a while whose currency was rice?
I think it was the same one that built Angkor Wat -- wasn't it?

Would "bicerealism" be a possibility?

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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Thu 10 May 2012, 17:05 
rupestrian
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The problem with using cereals as a currency is that they're just plain too common - cereals, with widespread use and cultivation, would likely lead to an incredibly volatile currency. That said, I believe spices have been used as currency in some areas, and having two spices would makes just as much sense as two metals. I see nothing too strange about prices quoted in units of Saffron and Cumin.

An idea I've been kicking around is a society that uses the tanned flesh of a rival ethnicity as currency. Creepy as hell, but why not? The only issue would be recognizability, but perhaps there could be a centralized tanning/coinage authority that would verify the authenticity before the tanning process.


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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Mon 18 Jun 2012, 06:30 
greek
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I'm still working on the socioeconomics of my sci-fi universe. An idea I'm working on right now is a kind of post-scarcity Palace Economy run by super-sapient AI.

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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Mon 18 Jun 2012, 22:49 
fire
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mthmchris wrote:
The problem with using cereals as a currency is that they're just plain too common - cereals, with widespread use and cultivation, would likely lead to an incredibly volatile currency. That said, I believe spices have been used as currency in some areas, and having two spices would makes just as much sense as two metals. I see nothing too strange about prices quoted in units of Saffron and Cumin.

The first futures market was Japan's Rice Exchange. At that time rice was the currency. The problem was that speculators would horde huge warehouses of rice. The commodity wasn't in the hands of the people who produced it nor in the hands of the people who needed to consume it; it was in the hands of the speculators. The Emperor's government stepped in.




I like your spices idea.

That tanned hide idea is also interesting; kind of sickening, but interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Thu 05 Jul 2012, 01:57 
sinic
sinic

Joined: Mon 19 Sep 2011, 19:37
Posts: 152
mthmchris wrote:
The problem with using cereals as a currency is that they're just plain too common - cereals, with widespread use and cultivation, would likely lead to an incredibly volatile currency. That said, I believe spices have been used as currency in some areas, and having two spices would makes just as much sense as two metals. I see nothing too strange about prices quoted in units of Saffron and Cumin.

An idea I've been kicking around is a society that uses the tanned flesh of a rival ethnicity as currency. Creepy as hell, but why not? The only issue would be recognizability, but perhaps there could be a centralized tanning/coinage authority that would verify the authenticity before the tanning process.


I'm told that human skin has limited utility. It's apparently very fragile.


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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Thu 05 Jul 2012, 03:18 
greek
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mthmchris wrote:
The problem with using cereals as a currency is that they're just plain too common - cereals, with widespread use and cultivation, would likely lead to an incredibly volatile currency. That said, I believe spices have been used as currency in some areas,


If they're non-local cereals, I don't see why they couldn't be as valuable as we considered spices. (alternately, look at the above example of rice in Japan)


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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 05:54 
cleardarkness
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eldin raigmore wrote:
The first futures market was Japan's Rice Exchange. At that time rice was the currency. The problem was that speculators would horde huge warehouses of rice. The commodity wasn't in the hands of the people who produced it nor in the hands of the people who needed to consume it; it was in the hands of the speculators.


Speculators hoard when prices are low so they can dump them in mass quantities when the prices are highest (like during a famine). They're important stabilizing forces in any economy.

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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Mon 09 Jul 2012, 09:35 
runic
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eldin raigmore wrote:
Would "bicerealism" be a possibility?



I hope so! In my conworld, which has had a few names but I will try to stick to Tirga,

the northerly peoples produce an abundance of millet, while the southerly peoples produce
an abundance of kodra (kodo millet). Also, this world went through three major Metal Ages-
Lead, Copper, and Aluminum/Titanium. So the economic corner I apparently have apparently painted myself into is a bicereal/trimetallic standard?
[O.O] [:x]

OMG - And I thought the "fleas the size of rats, and rats the size of (liger)cats" was enough trouble already. [>_<]


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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Sun 12 Aug 2012, 05:06 
hieroglyphic
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Salthans are technologically still in the middle ages, and use rare shells as commerce, as well as barter, though they are in the process of transitioning to precious metal coins. Their econimic system is pretty standard open barter and trade.


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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Sun 12 Aug 2012, 16:31 
sinic
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I quite like the Worgel experiment idea of making money have an expiration date to prevent hoarding, but I'm not sure how to use it in a conworld.

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 Post subject: Re: Conworld Economy
PostPosted: Sun 12 Aug 2012, 19:07 
MVP
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Batailleur wrote:
I quite like the Worgel experiment idea of making money have an expiration date to prevent hoarding, but I'm not sure how to use it in a conworld.


What's wrong with hoarding?

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