Diachronic Conlanging open world

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k1234567890y
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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by k1234567890y »

qwed117 wrote:
Spoiler:
k1234567890y wrote:more thoughts:
A sedimentary hunter-gatherer society may not be able to sustain for thousands of years, however, I think there are methods that can compensate: first, a large surplus of a single kind of natural resource(for example, a large sum of wild wheat) means that people who try to cultivate their own food are more likely to encounter suitable animals/plants that can be cultivated, even the probability is low, if the sample size is large(note: sample size does not effect the probablility), it is more likely to see a low-incidence event in the sample, even the probability of X is 1/1,000,000,000, if the sample size is larger than 1,000,000,000, we are expected to see one incident of X in the samples(however, if the sample size is small, we are not expected to see any incident of X, as the probability of X is 1/1,000,000,000.) In our world, mesoamerican civilization was boosted by the gene mutation that caused maize to emerge in about 2500 BC, otherwise, mesoamericans may need to wait for the Chinese people, Hmong-Mien peoples, Tai-Kadai peoples or Austronesian peoples to bring plants like rice and taro to them to develop civilization, in my opinion; second, it is possible that agriculture can be boosted through trading, by importing seeds and livestock that are suitable for the climate.
ok, that are all rants.
I hate to nitpick on a rant, but let's take a look
k1234567890y wrote:A sedimentary hunter-gatherer society
Sedentary; Hunter-Gatherer societies have many limiting factors preventing them from being sedentary. They would need an efficient hunt-gather system.
k1234567890y wrote: first, a large surplus of a single kind of natural resource(for example, a large sum of wild wheat) means that people who try to cultivate their own food are more likely to encounter suitable animals/plants that can be cultivated,
I can't really tell what you are trying to say. My guess is something like "If there is a large population of a single plant genera, then the people will use only the most cultivate-able plants, thus allowing for greater crop output". Civilisations do usually develop on a single variety that they have cultivated and grown for their uses, but that doesn't preclude the idea that a civilisation might have several cash crops. As civilisations become more advanced, multiple crops often take the place of a cash crop.
k1234567890y wrote: even the probability is low, if the sample size is large(note: sample size does not effect the probablility), it is more likely to see a low-incidence event in the sample, even the probability of X is 1/1,000,000,000, if the sample size is larger than 1,000,000,000, we are expected to see one incident of X in the samples(however, if the sample size is small, we are not expected to see any incident of X, as the probability of X is 1/1,000,000,000.)
I hope everyone here knows that an increased sample size shows a higher occurrence, but a similar occurrence rate
k1234567890y wrote:In our world, mesoamerican civilization was boosted by the gene mutation that caused maize to emerge in about 2500 BC, otherwise, mesoamericans may need to wait for the Chinese people, Hmong-Mien peoples, Tai-Kadai peoples or Austronesian peoples to bring plants like rice and taro to them to develop civilization,
I'm starting to question your sanity while writing this (and mine in replying to it).
While Maize is the cash-crop of Mesoamerica, sedentarism was sparked by fishing. The first thing they cultured was not Maize, but Squash (in 8000 BC), Maize came in 5000 BC, 3000 years after Mesoamerican agriculture began. I will admit that a mutation was necessary in adapting corn from the jungles of Panama to the semidesert of Mexico. Why this has any relation to any Southeast Asian peoples, I know not; there was no known contact between Southeast Asian peoples and the Mesoamericans.
k1234567890y wrote: second, it is possible that agriculture can be boosted through trading, by importing seeds and livestock that are suitable for the climate.
I believe we discussed this earlier around page 19. While that might seem correct, one has to note that agriculture may be improved by native selection.
ok...thank you for your reply...probably I need to rethink...
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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by smappy »

qwed117 wrote: I hate to nitpick on a rant, but let's take a look
I hate to nitpick on a nitpick on a rant, but more discussion is better, right? [¬.¬]
qwed117 wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:A sedimentary hunter-gatherer society
Sedentary; Hunter-Gatherer societies have many limiting factors preventing them from being sedentary. They would need an efficient hunt-gather system.
What about the Indians of the Pacific Northwest, which is what this was supposed to be based on? They had a pretty materialistic, sedentary lifestyle. Resources are certainly plenty enough in that area that permanent settlements characterized by enormous houses were possible. It is true that they relied fairly heavily on fishing, which is a type of hunting anyway.
qwed117 wrote:
k1234567890y wrote: first, a large surplus of a single kind of natural resource(for example, a large sum of wild wheat) means that people who try to cultivate their own food are more likely to encounter suitable animals/plants that can be cultivated,
I can't really tell what you are trying to say. My guess is something like "If there is a large population of a single plant genera, then the people will use only the most cultivate-able plants, thus allowing for greater crop output". Civilisations do usually develop on a single variety that they have cultivated and grown for their uses, but that doesn't preclude the idea that a civilisation might have several cash crops. As civilisations become more advanced, multiple crops often take the place of a cash crop.
Genus, not genera. Genera is the plural of genus. Cultivable not cultivate-able.

What I've learned so far is that the presence of domesticable animals and plants is very uneven on Earth, even between regions with similar climates. This distribution is an important factor in the timing of the development of agriculture. For example, Africa wasn't able to domesticate many animals because it just didn't start out with any wild animals that were easy to domesticate.

I don't know if "a large sum of wild wheat" is the most accurate wording but I definitely don't think that it implies a society has to rely on a single crop. Of course societies domesticate multiple crops.

The idea of a 'cash crop' isn't really applicable to a non-market economy. I think what we're focusing on here needs to be instead crops that allow for the maintenance of a subsistence/barter/gift economy. Certain areas do rely on single crops (Southeast Asia and rice comes to mind) but there are usually other staples as well that support the population in case the main one fails, Irish potato famine-style. Even in East Asia, sorghum, millet, wheat, sweet potatoes, and yams are all important foodstuffs.
qwed117 wrote:
k1234567890y wrote: even the probability is low, if the sample size is large(note: sample size does not effect the probablility), it is more likely to see a low-incidence event in the sample, even the probability of X is 1/1,000,000,000, if the sample size is larger than 1,000,000,000, we are expected to see one incident of X in the samples(however, if the sample size is small, we are not expected to see any incident of X, as the probability of X is 1/1,000,000,000.)
I hope everyone here knows that an increased sample size shows a higher occurrence, but a similar occurrence rate
High biodiversity isn't necessarily linked to domesticability: think of Africa with high diversity but low domesticability and Central Asia with low diversity but high domesticability.
qwed117 wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:In our world, mesoamerican civilization was boosted by the gene mutation that caused maize to emerge in about 2500 BC, otherwise, mesoamericans may need to wait for the Chinese people, Hmong-Mien peoples, Tai-Kadai peoples or Austronesian peoples to bring plants like rice and taro to them to develop civilization,
I'm starting to question your sanity while writing this (and mine in replying to it).
While Maize is the cash-crop of Mesoamerica, sedentarism was sparked by fishing. The first thing they cultured was not Maize, but Squash (in 8000 BC), Maize came in 5000 BC, 3000 years after Mesoamerican agriculture began. I will admit that a mutation was necessary in adapting corn from the jungles of Panama to the semidesert of Mexico. Why this has any relation to any Southeast Asian peoples, I know not; there was no known contact between Southeast Asian peoples and the Mesoamericans.
I'm pretty sure that the Asian contact scenario was hypothetical...in any case the point is that domesticability is somewhat random. It's important to know when specific crops were domesticated but I think we were focusing on more general principles of agriculture that we could actually apply to Teles.
qwed117 wrote: I'm starting to question your sanity while writing this (and mine in replying to it).
This is a pretty mean-spirited way to reply to a well-intentioned post. [:(]
k1234567890y wrote: second, it is possible that agriculture can be boosted through trading, by importing seeds and livestock that are suitable for the climate.
I believe we discussed this earlier around page 19. While that might seem correct, one has to note that agriculture may be improved by native selection.[/quote]

The diversity of crops can certainly be boosted by trade (e.g. introduction of corn to the Old World and introduction of wheat to the New World). Usually different crops have different advantages and disadvantages that may not decisively select in favor of one or the other. For example, African rice is lower-yielding than Asian rice, but African rice is also more hardy against parasites and grows better in difficult climates.
k1234567890y wrote: ok...thank you for your reply...probably I need to rethink...
I think you have the right general idea for Teles! Maybe a few small details are off but I don't think you have to rethink everything.

@qwed117: Your details are usually spot-on, so kudos for that. But in my opinion, precise details of Earth agriculture aren't necessarily that relevant to Teles.

The way you responded to k1234567890y wasn't very nice though. I thought the CBB was supposed to be nicer than the ZBB.

tl;dr
Let's be nice to each other. It's not cool to cut people down for any reason, even if you don't agree with their ideas.
Learn more about agriculture and sedentary hunter-gatherer societies from John Green and Wikipedia. It'll only take 15 minutes. Promise.
[:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world...

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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by qwed117 »

Spoiler:
smappy wrote:
qwed117 wrote: I hate to nitpick on a rant, but let's take a look
I hate to nitpick on a nitpick on a rant, but more discussion is better, right? [¬.¬]
qwed117 wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:A sedimentary hunter-gatherer society
Sedentary; Hunter-Gatherer societies have many limiting factors preventing them from being sedentary. They would need an efficient hunt-gather system.
What about the Indians of the Pacific Northwest, which is what this was supposed to be based on? They had a pretty materialistic, sedentary lifestyle. Resources are certainly plenty enough in that area that permanent settlements characterized by enormous houses were possible. It is true that they relied fairly heavily on fishing, which is a type of hunting anyway.
qwed117 wrote:
k1234567890y wrote: first, a large surplus of a single kind of natural resource(for example, a large sum of wild wheat) means that people who try to cultivate their own food are more likely to encounter suitable animals/plants that can be cultivated,
I can't really tell what you are trying to say. My guess is something like "If there is a large population of a single plant genera, then the people will use only the most cultivate-able plants, thus allowing for greater crop output". Civilisations do usually develop on a single variety that they have cultivated and grown for their uses, but that doesn't preclude the idea that a civilisation might have several cash crops. As civilisations become more advanced, multiple crops often take the place of a cash crop.
Genus, not genera. Genera is the plural of genus. Cultivable not cultivate-able.

What I've learned so far is that the presence of domesticable animals and plants is very uneven on Earth, even between regions with similar climates. This distribution is an important factor in the timing of the development of agriculture. For example, Africa wasn't able to domesticate many animals because it just didn't start out with any wild animals that were easy to domesticate.

I don't know if "a large sum of wild wheat" is the most accurate wording but I definitely don't think that it implies a society has to rely on a single crop. Of course societies domesticate multiple crops.

The idea of a 'cash crop' isn't really applicable to a non-market economy. I think what we're focusing on here needs to be instead crops that allow for the maintenance of a subsistence/barter/gift economy. Certain areas do rely on single crops (Southeast Asia and rice comes to mind) but there are usually other staples as well that support the population in case the main one fails, Irish potato famine-style. Even in East Asia, sorghum, millet, wheat, sweet potatoes, and yams are all important foodstuffs.
qwed117 wrote:
k1234567890y wrote: even the probability is low, if the sample size is large(note: sample size does not effect the probablility), it is more likely to see a low-incidence event in the sample, even the probability of X is 1/1,000,000,000, if the sample size is larger than 1,000,000,000, we are expected to see one incident of X in the samples(however, if the sample size is small, we are not expected to see any incident of X, as the probability of X is 1/1,000,000,000.)
I hope everyone here knows that an increased sample size shows a higher occurrence, but a similar occurrence rate
High biodiversity isn't necessarily linked to domesticability: think of Africa with high diversity but low domesticability and Central Asia with low diversity but high domesticability.
qwed117 wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:In our world, mesoamerican civilization was boosted by the gene mutation that caused maize to emerge in about 2500 BC, otherwise, mesoamericans may need to wait for the Chinese people, Hmong-Mien peoples, Tai-Kadai peoples or Austronesian peoples to bring plants like rice and taro to them to develop civilization,
I'm starting to question your sanity while writing this (and mine in replying to it).
While Maize is the cash-crop of Mesoamerica, sedentarism was sparked by fishing. The first thing they cultured was not Maize, but Squash (in 8000 BC), Maize came in 5000 BC, 3000 years after Mesoamerican agriculture began. I will admit that a mutation was necessary in adapting corn from the jungles of Panama to the semidesert of Mexico. Why this has any relation to any Southeast Asian peoples, I know not; there was no known contact between Southeast Asian peoples and the Mesoamericans.
I'm pretty sure that the Asian contact scenario was hypothetical...in any case the point is that domesticability is somewhat random. It's important to know when specific crops were domesticated but I think we were focusing on more general principles of agriculture that we could actually apply to Teles.
qwed117 wrote: I'm starting to question your sanity while writing this (and mine in replying to it).
This is a pretty mean-spirited way to reply to a well-intentioned post. [:(]
k1234567890y wrote: second, it is possible that agriculture can be boosted through trading, by importing seeds and livestock that are suitable for the climate.
I believe we discussed this earlier around page 19. While that might seem correct, one has to note that agriculture may be improved by native selection.
The diversity of crops can certainly be boosted by trade (e.g. introduction of corn to the Old World and introduction of wheat to the New World). Usually different crops have different advantages and disadvantages that may not decisively select in favor of one or the other. For example, African rice is lower-yielding than Asian rice, but African rice is also more hardy against parasites and grows better in difficult climates.
k1234567890y wrote: ok...thank you for your reply...probably I need to rethink...
I think you have the right general idea for Teles! Maybe a few small details are off but I don't think you have to rethink everything.

@qwed117: Your details are usually spot-on, so kudos for that. But in my opinion, precise details of Earth agriculture aren't necessarily that relevant to Teles.

The way you responded to k1234567890y wasn't very nice though. I thought the CBB was supposed to be nicer than the ZBB.

tl;dr
Let's be nice to each other. It's not cool to cut people down for any reason, even if you don't agree with their ideas.
Learn more about agriculture and sedentary hunter-gatherer societies from John Green and Wikipedia. It'll only take 15 minutes. Promise.
[:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D][/quote]
I may have put them down, but in no way did I disagree with them. Note that most of the time I was affirming her rant; albeit in a condescending and mocking manner. [xP] (I hope this means that I screwed up badly if not, try this [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] ).
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Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by loglorn »

I'm just stating that i knew that domesticable species are very badly distributed, but i didn't really account that in the agriculture post because that makes up an overwhelming amount of variables. Working out fauna and flora for pretty much the whole planet is quite hardcore.

If the environment is plentiful enough, the population can have a surplus comparable to early agricultural populations, making sedentarism quite possible. (They are probably screwed when their population grows too much and/or they deforest too much though)
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by Ahzoh »

I'm crazy enough to have a dialect (Mukhebic) of Vrkhazh that has prenasalized voiced stops and fricatives (but not affricates).
It will likely be totally unintelligible to Uzerian (another dialect) though.
Hurrah for diachronics!
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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by loglorn »

Ahzoh wrote:I'm crazy enough to have a dialect (Mukhebic) of Vrkhazh that has prenasalized voiced stops and fricatives (but not affricates).
It will likely be totally unintelligible to Uzerian (another dialect) though.
Hurrah for diachronics!
Hurrah!
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by Sḿtuval »

I've been working more on Kauzasian.

So Kauzasian was spoken in a nation/country/whatever called Dinaunne.

Image

Dinaunne is all the land below the black line on the peninsula. The languages of the Iruic Kauzasian branch will be spoken mostly in this area and maybe a little to the north and the languages of the Northern Kauzasian branch will be spoken near the top of the peninsula and in the continent (most likely to the east). I'm already working on a Kauzasian daughterlang under the excuse that the location of its speakers caused them to be isolated from other language families so I don't have to wait for others. That seem good to you all?
I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing.
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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by opipik »

I'm going to submit a new language. Well, it isn't new, because...
I'm going to submit Project Moldavite!
For evidence, it will be named Proto-Kangthang.
It will be spoken here:
Image
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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by k1234567890y »

opipik wrote:I'm going to submit a new language. Well, it isn't new, because...
I'm going to submit Project Moldavite!
For evidence, it will be named Proto-Kangthang.
It will be spoken here:
Image
welcome! looks that the world of teles is becoming more and more diverse
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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by smappy »

Added Kangthang (salmon-colored) and a new family I'm making, Tingwe (burgundy-colored). I'm planning to make Tingwe distantly related to ǂaa Uteq.

Image
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world...

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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by loglorn »

smappy wrote:Added Kangthang (salmon-colored) and a new family I'm making, Tingwe (burgundy-colored). I'm planning to make Tingwe distantly related to ǂaa Uteq.

Image
Are you doing those imgs in a .svg file? (With which program by the way?) Do you mind sending me a copy?
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by smappy »

loglorn wrote: Are you doing those imgs in a .svg file? (With which program by the way?) Do you mind sending me a copy?
I've been using GIMP because it's free and exporting the files as .png. Unfortunately it isn't as high-resolution as .svg files but it's still high-res enough that you thought they were .svg [:P].

If I need a even more detailed map I can just crop it, blow it up, and then add in more fine-grained details (which is what I did with the existing map anyway).

If you PM me your email I can send you a copy of what I have so far (in a .xcf format, which is the GIMP file format) but it's still very much a work in progress. I haven't had enough time to make the full physical map or climate map that I wanted to.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world...

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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by loglorn »

smappy wrote:
loglorn wrote: Are you doing those imgs in a .svg file? (With which program by the way?) Do you mind sending me a copy?
I've been using GIMP because it's free and exporting the files as .png. Unfortunately it isn't as high-resolution as .svg files but it's still high-res enough that you thought they were .svg [:P].

If I need a even more detailed map I can just crop it, blow it up, and then add in more fine-grained details (which is what I did with the existing map anyway).

If you PM me your email I can send you a copy of what I have so far (in a .xcf format, which is the GIMP file format) but it's still very much a work in progress. I haven't had enough time to make the full physical map or climate map that I wanted to.
I wonder if Inkscape opens that
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by smappy »

loglorn wrote:I wonder if Inkscape opens that
I think it can.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world...

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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by smappy »

Created a high-res version of northeastern Amutet because I wanted to clarify my ideas for what's happening there around 10000 BK.

Image

Roughly clockwise: light blue = Macro-Ulitan, steel blue = Proto-Ulitan, red = Macro-Tingwe-#aa Uteq, blue = Macro-Amutetikam-Tiledem, orange = #aa Uteq, purple = Proto-Amutetikam, light green = 'Highland', turquoise = 'Marine', yellow = 'Upland', dark red = Proto-Tingwe, green = Proto-Tiledem, dark blue = Proto-Zempachi, bright green = Gur, pink = Kapa.

Basically, light blue and steel blue form a family (1); red, orange, and dark red form a family (2); blue, purple, and green, along with possibly turquoise, form a family (3). Light green and yellow might be related to each other (4)— related to Kapa?

We can see that (4) probably lived in the center of the map first. Then (2) came in. Next (3) comes in along the coast and begins spreading up river valleys. Finally turquoise spreads along the coast.

I kind of just wanted to fill in some empty spaces while making things related to one another and accounting for the distribution of some of the families we already have.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world...

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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by Artaxes »

I want an area for my protolanguage.
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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by loglorn »

Artaxes, you just need to send a map showing where will your protolang be spoken.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by Artaxes »

Image

Proto-Arhoan
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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by loglorn »

Welcome to the project, Artaxes!

I'm probably going to have contact with your langs by 6 000BK (give or take a thousand). I'm the guy with the coast long stripe in Amalan.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: Diachronic Conlanging open world

Post by Artaxes »

Thanks.

I'm beginning with article about Proto-Arhoan.
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