On the Concept of Sani

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Noshi187
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On the Concept of Sani

Post by Noshi187 »

The word sani in Haoka roughly translates to "complete" or "whole." It can also be used a a verb: "to complete something" or "to make whole." However, the meaning of sani is much more complex, and does not line up perfectly with the English concept of "complete."

First of all, sani can often be used in the English sense when referring to simple completion. When a project is done, it is sani. When a program has fully downloaded, the word sani can be used. However, when you are finished with a meal, neither you nor the meal are sani. When a farmer has harvested his entire crop, the task may be sani, but the field is not.

In addition, sani cannot be used to modify other words in the way English speakers use "completely." One might call something "completely silly," but to say that it is "sanibaile boko" makes no sense. Sani is not a modifier of other traits, but a state of being in and of itself.

Sani as a greater concept or value is a more specific and deeper kind of wholeness. The best and most, well, sani way to explain this is through a contrast between the complexity of the natural world and the simplicity of the "Archetype." I use quotations because archetype is not the most accurate term, as in the context of sani, it may just refer to the idea of a specific person or object. A person may be very outgoing at times, and much more shy in other circumstances, but if none of these behaviors are uncharacteristic or out of place for the person, they are sani.

The idea of sani rests on the fact that the real world is immensely complex, and very little can strictly fit into a box. Sani is the quality that is seen when an object's complexity does not oppose the larger idea of what it is, fitting into and supporting its larger whole without conflict. It is cohesive diversity.

In a sani community, there are many different kinds of people, but they all share a sense of unity. In a sani house, the rooms differ from one another, perhaps in great degrees, but one walking through the house never gets the impression that they have gone from one house to another. In a sani workplace, many people are all performing different and seemingly unconnected functions, which all further whatever greater tasks the company seeks to do. In a sani person, one will find many different characteristics, traits, and interests, which outwardly may not seem compatible, but which all make sense for the person as a whole and do not clash with one another.

Thus, a person who pretends to be someone they are not, or who is not true to themselves, is not sani, and imitations of things are not sani. Lies are not sani, but simple, observational truths (e.g. The car is red) are not sani either. However, truth can make things sani, when it significantly furthers one's understanding.

Knowing how to transform graphs of radical functions does not make one's understanding of radical functions sani. Knowing why each transformation does what it does, applying this knowledge to related problems, applying this knowledge to other areas, being able to teach it to others: these things make one's understanding sani.

In Haoka, and in any Hao cultures, there are certain inherent values: kindness, confidence, honesty, teaching, etc. None of these values are higher, however, than sani. Indeed, all of these values can be seen as aspects of sani, all parts of a greater whole.
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Re: On the Concept of Sani

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Noshi187 wrote:The word sani in Haoka roughly translates to "complete" or "whole." It can also be used a a verb: "to complete something" or "to make whole." However, the meaning of sani is much more complex, and does not line up perfectly with the English concept of "complete."

First of all, sani can often be used in the English sense when referring to simple completion. When a project is done, it is sani. When a program has fully downloaded, the word sani can be used. However, when you are finished with a meal, neither you nor the meal are sani. When a farmer has harvested his entire crop, the task may be sani, but the field is not.
Interesting. It sounds like the Hao make a distinction between momentary actions, those that can be said to be sani, and cyclical or continuous actions that can not truly be sani. (Until, perhaps, at the End of All Things?)
In addition, sani cannot be used to modify other words in the way English speakers use "completely." One might call something "completely silly," but to say that it is "sanibaile boko" makes no sense. Sani is not a modifier of other traits, but a state of being in and of itself.
That makes sense. Anyway, there's no reason the words have to take the same semantic paths in English and Haoka!
Sani as a greater concept or value is a more specific and deeper kind of wholeness. The best and most, well, sani way to explain this is through a contrast between the complexity of the natural world and the simplicity of the "Archetype." I use quotations because archetype is not the most accurate term, as in the context of sani, it may just refer to the idea of a specific person or object. A person may be very outgoing at times, and much more shy in other circumstances, but if none of these behaviors are uncharacteristic or out of place for the person, they are sani.

The idea of sani rests on the fact that the real world is immensely complex, and very little can strictly fit into a box. Sani is the quality that is seen when an object's complexity does not oppose the larger idea of what it is, fitting into and supporting its larger whole without conflict. It is cohesive diversity.
It sounds to me like sani could be seen as a concept in some ways parallel to tesh among the Daine of The World. Tesh as a concept revolves around balance inner and outer. It has mundane meanings, of course. You can balance two children on your arms, and that's tesh, but there are also deeper meanings. If I put an arrow to the bowstring and then push the bow along the arrow, the bow comes "out of tesh". It is tense, full of pent up energy and no longer at Rest. The arrow is "in tesh", at Rest. Let the string go and the arrow speeds away from Rest and into frantic and unbalanced activity. The bow snaps back to its natural position and comes into tesh again. As with the Haoka, a Daine whose now outgoing now shy nature shows itself in differing circumstances, she is indeed in balance.
In a sani community, there are many different kinds of people, but they all share a sense of unity. In a sani house, the rooms differ from one another, perhaps in great degrees, but one walking through the house never gets the impression that they have gone from one house to another. In a sani workplace, many people are all performing different and seemingly unconnected functions, which all further whatever greater tasks the company seeks to do. In a sani person, one will find many different characteristics, traits, and interests, which outwardly may not seem compatible, but which all make sense for the person as a whole and do not clash with one another.
Right. Surface difference of appearance does not imply distinction of underlying character or unity of being.
Thus, a person who pretends to be someone they are not, or who is not true to themselves, is not sani, and imitations of things are not sani. Lies are not sani, but simple, observational truths (e.g. The car is red) are not sani either. However, truth can make things sani, when it significantly furthers one's understanding.
Right. Though Daine would consider the fact of a waggon being red as tesh if it is in the nature of that waggon to bé red. A humble orchard waggon may be red and out of tesh; a plain red wandering minstrel show waggon, such as those driven by Men, would also be out of tesh. The orchard waggon mought perhaps be a subdued green with vines and fruits carved into it; the minstrels' waggon ought to be garish reds and yellows and blues with all kinds of ritual and folkloristic patterns on it. That's now tesh.
Knowing how to transform graphs of radical functions does not make one's understanding of radical functions sani. Knowing why each transformation does what it does, applying this knowledge to related problems, applying this knowledge to other areas, being able to teach it to others: these things make one's understanding sani.

In Haoka, and in any Hao cultures, there are certain inherent values: kindness, confidence, honesty, teaching, etc. None of these values are higher, however, than sani. Indeed, all of these values can be seen as aspects of sani, all parts of a greater whole.
Excellent exposition!

Do tell us more! About sani, about the Hao. Who keeps and teaches the truth about sani? Are there monks or someone of that sort? Is this part of a religious or philosophical tradition? In other words, tell us more about the Hao!
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Re: On the Concept of Sani

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elemtilas wrote:Interesting. It sounds like the Hao make a distinction between momentary actions, those that can be said to be sani, and cyclical or continuous actions that can not truly be sani. (Until, perhaps, at the End of All Things?)
Not exactly, I feel like continuous action can be sani in the greater sense. I had some different distinctions in mind when I wrote this. With the project and computer program, by the end you have something. When you finish a meal, however, there's no meal left. The only time you could call a meal sani when when you have finished making the meal. However, there are definitely some grammatical distinctions made between words that indicate a time and place and words that indicate a more lasting condition. Describing an object's location can be done one of two ways, depending on the (im)permanency of the state of location, or whether or not the object belongs where it is. Or, say, the word hadai roughly means "always, by nature, from origin till end," as in ha noshine hadai, literally meaning "I have always been a person," and more roughly meaning, "I am only human." Although outwardly it sounds like a time modifier, its place in the sentence is where non time/place modifiers go, as its meaning transcends time.
That makes sense. Anyway, there's no reason the words have to take the same semantic paths in English and Haoka!
Exactly :) And besides, as I say later, being entirely one thing is quite far from what sani means!
It sounds to me like sani could be seen as a concept in some ways parallel to tesh among the Daine of The World. Tesh as a concept revolves around balance inner and outer. It has mundane meanings, of course. You can balance two children on your arms, and that's tesh, but there are also deeper meanings. If I put an arrow to the bowstring and then push the bow along the arrow, the bow comes "out of tesh". It is tense, full of pent up energy and no longer at Rest. The arrow is "in tesh", at Rest. Let the string go and the arrow speeds away from Rest and into frantic and unbalanced activity. The bow snaps back to its natural position and comes into tesh again. As with the Haoka, a Daine whose now outgoing now shy nature shows itself in differing circumstances, she is indeed in balance.
Yes, I can see the parallels between the concepts. Each relies on balance between different states, and a harmony between the inner and outer. I would sani is certainly a bit more specific than the English word "balance." For the person example, someone who is sometime outgoing, sometimes shy, would not be sani (or tesh, I would assume) if these two states felt separated, or like different people, or if this person is conflicted between these two parts of themselves. In order to be sani, there has to be some compatibility and between these states, even if they seem opposed. Indeed, as you said with tesh, they may manifest themselves in different circumstances, allowing for them to both be "in character," despite being opposites.
Right. Surface difference of appearance does not imply distinction of underlying character or unity of being.
Yes. An entirely unanimous community is not sani (largely because it is not possible!), and neither is a community at figurative (or literal) war with itself. And indeed, a community may seem outwardly conforming and peaceful, but its people may harbor intense hatred towards one another, in which case the community would be the direct opposite of sani!
Right. Though Daine would consider the fact of a waggon being red as tesh if it is in the nature of that waggon to bé red. A humble orchard waggon may be red and out of tesh; a plain red wandering minstrel show waggon, such as those driven by Men, would also be out of tesh. The orchard waggon mought perhaps be a subdued green with vines and fruits carved into it; the minstrels' waggon ought to be garish reds and yellows and blues with all kinds of ritual and folkloristic patterns on it. That's now tesh.
Interesting... I would love to learn more about the Daine! I like this example with the wagons, and how each has to fit into their specific role]. There isn't one set of requirements for all wagons, they differ based on their circumstances and use, and can still all be tesh.
Excellent exposition!

Do tell us more! About sani, about the Hao. Who keeps and teaches the truth about sani? Are there monks or someone of that sort? Is this part of a religious or philosophical tradition? In other words, tell us more about the Hao!
First of all, thank you very much! About your question, the value of teaching, or gasei is more about passing down knowledge, and is not the responsibility of a certain group of people, but of all people.

Sani is not strictly a religious or philosophical tradition, although I'm sure there would be religions and philosophies with a stronger-than-normal emphasis on upholding it. It's more a part of the culture, learned through stories like fairy tales, and through the general exposure that comes from living in such a culture.

I've mostly just been working on the language as of now, but certain cultural values have sprung up as I've made it. After all, culture and language are so often intrinsically tied together. I hope to be able to tell you more about Hao culture, but I'll have to learn/create more myself! This should be rather fun [:D]
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Re: On the Concept of Sani

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Noshi187 wrote:
elemtilas wrote:Interesting. It sounds like the Hao make a distinction between momentary actions, those that can be said to be sani, and cyclical or continuous actions that can not truly be sani. (Until, perhaps, at the End of All Things?)
Not exactly, I feel like continuous action can be sani in the greater sense.
I see. Maybe I was thinking more along the lines of "task at hand within a cyclical arrangement" rather than "the big picture of the cycle as a whole". In otherwords, "harvest", the task at hand, would not be sani because it's simply part of a much longer action that is never actually completed. But on the other hand, in a greater sense, the whole prepare--plant--grow--harvest--rest--repeat cycle mought be sani because it is "complete in its naturally ongoing state".
I had some different distinctions in mind when I wrote this. With the project and computer program, by the end you have something.
Right, that makes sense! The project has a clear terminal point beyond which there is no more project and is thus complete.
When you finish a meal, however, there's no meal left. The only time you could call a meal sani when when you have finished making the meal.
Hm. So, perhaps the meal is only sani at it's beginning, rather than it's ending? When all the food and dishes are laid out and guests gathered.
However, there are definitely some grammatical distinctions made between words that indicate a time and place and words that indicate a more lasting condition. Describing an object's location can be done one of two ways, depending on the (im)permanency of the state of location, or whether or not the object belongs where it is. Or, say, the word hadai roughly means "always, by nature, from origin till end," as in ha noshine hadai, literally meaning "I have always been a person," and more roughly meaning, "I am only human." Although outwardly it sounds like a time modifier, its place in the sentence is where non time/place modifiers go, as its meaning transcends time.
Oo, neat!
It sounds to me like sani could be seen as a concept in some ways parallel to tesh.
Yes, I can see the parallels between the concepts. Each relies on balance between different states, and a harmony between the inner and outer. I would say sani is certainly a bit more specific than the English word "balance." For the person example, someone who is sometime outgoing, sometimes shy, would not be sani (or tesh, I would assume) if these two states felt separated, or like different people, or if this person is conflicted between these two parts of themselves. In order to be sani, there has to be some compatibility and between these states, even if they seem opposed. Indeed, as you said with tesh, they may manifest themselves in different circumstances, allowing for them to both be "in character," despite being opposites. [/quote]

Exactly!

A normally shy boy who's inhaled too much catnip smoke and is now behaving all outgoing would definitely be off his tesh! Humorously and temporarily it may be.
Yes. An entirely unanimous community is not sani (largely because it is not possible!), and neither is a community at figurative (or literal) war with itself. And indeed, a community may seem outwardly conforming and peaceful, but its people may harbor intense hatred towards one another, in which case the community would be the direct opposite of sani!
(: If the Hao are Men (or people very much like humans), then yes, a unanimously balanced / complete community is not possible. Men are too labile and prone to failure of this kind. If they were more like Daine, then such community is far more the norm.
Interesting... I would love to learn more about the Daine! I like this example with the wagons, and how each has to fit into their specific role. There isn't one set of requirements for all wagons, they differ based on their circumstances and use, and can still all be tesh.
Yes, a person or even an object can find itself at Rest or within Restlessness / Balanced or Imbalanced if its outside is not like its inside; if its personality is not aligned with its character.

Daine are far more consistently untroubled by these things because of their inner nature --- they are not among the Fallen. For them, it is mare natural and, beyond second nature, indeed more often first nature to steer a direct course within their own individual lives and also their community's lives. I'm not saying they're all goody-two-shoes (first, they don't wear shoes; second, they have free will so can indeed choose to be very very bad). But their natures are more in synch with tesh / sani than most other folks.
First of all, thank you very much! About your question, the value of teaching, or gasei is more about passing down knowledge, and is not the responsibility of a certain group of people, but of all people.
Makes sense. By the way, I like the sound of these words! Gasei in particular.
Sani is not strictly a religious or philosophical tradition, although I'm sure there would be religions and philosophies with a stronger-than-normal emphasis on upholding it. It's more a part of the culture, learned through stories like fairy tales, and through the general exposure that comes from living in such a culture.
Kind of like tesh, then. For Daine, learning about it in childhood through stories and songs simply helps to solidify that sensibility within. There are monks who exemplify, but little ones really learn mostly from family.
I've mostly just been working on the language as of now, but certain cultural values have sprung up as I've made it. After all, culture and language are so often intrinsically tied together. I hope to be able to tell you more about Hao culture, but I'll have to learn/create more myself! This should be rather fun [:D]
Heh. Culture has a way of inserting itself!

I have to say, you've got quite the spring going there! I for one can't wait to hear more!

Oh, and as for the Daine, you can find out a bit here. There are some stories and descriptive matter in that thread.
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Re: On the Concept of Sani

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I see. Maybe I was thinking more along the lines of "task at hand within a cyclical arrangement" rather than "the big picture of the cycle as a whole". In otherwords, "harvest", the task at hand, would not be sani because it's simply part of a much longer action that is never actually completed. But on the other hand, in a greater sense, the whole prepare--plant--grow--harvest--rest--repeat cycle mought be sani because it is "complete in its naturally ongoing state".
Yes for the harvest, but specifically because the growing and cutting down, the sowing and reaping, work to allow the other to occur.
Right, that makes sense! The project has a clear terminal point beyond which there is no more project and is thus complete.
Sort of. More that when it's done, there is something there. You have a computer program, or a finished result. As opposed to the meal, where there is less than you've started with, or nothing left at all.
Hm. So, perhaps the meal is only sani at it's beginning, rather than it's ending? When all the food and dishes are laid out and guests gathered.
Yes. The meal can be sani after you've finished making it, but not after you've finished eating it.
Oo, neat!
[:D]
Exactly!

A normally shy boy who's inhaled too much catnip smoke and is now behaving all outgoing would definitely be off his tesh! Humorously and temporarily it may be.
I love your examples! [xD] But yes, that would not be sani. An inner emotional conflict could lead to some similar, although less humorous, example.
(: If the Hao are Men (or people very much like humans), then yes, a unanimously balanced / complete community is not possible. Men are too labile and prone to failure of this kind. If they were more like Daine, then such community is far more the norm.
I have not created any definite Hao cultures, but I imagine they would be human. As I said, the idea of sani acknowledges that unanimity does not appear naturally. So some societies (or species) may be more orderly, but variety always exists.
Yes, a person or even an object can find itself at Rest or within Restlessness / Balanced or Imbalanced if its outside is not like its inside; if its personality is not aligned with its character.

Daine are far more consistently untroubled by these things because of their inner nature --- they are not among the Fallen. For them, it is mare natural and, beyond second nature, indeed more often first nature to steer a direct course within their own individual lives and also their community's lives. I'm not saying they're all goody-two-shoes (first, they don't wear shoes; second, they have free will so can indeed choose to be very very bad). But their natures are more in synch with tesh / sani than most other folks.
Sounds like a very interesting culture to me. Looking forward to reading more!
Makes sense. By the way, I like the sound of these words! Gasei in particular.
Thank you! Making words can be difficult, but it's a really fun process. My signature, as you may have guessed, is in Haoka too. It means, "I love y'all!" :D
Kind of like tesh, then. For Daine, learning about it in childhood through stories and songs simply helps to solidify that sensibility within. There are monks who exemplify, but little ones really learn mostly from family.
Yep [:)]
Heh. Culture has a way of inserting itself!

I have to say, you've got quite the spring going there! I for one can't wait to hear more!

Oh, and as for the Daine, you can find out a bit here. There are some stories and descriptive matter in that thread.
Thank you for the kind words and the link! I've already read your description of the Tana and am fascinated! I will certainly read more descriptions and stories :)
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Re: On the Concept of Sani

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Noshi187 wrote:
Right, that makes sense! The project has a clear terminal point beyond which there is no more project and is thus complete.
Sort of. More that when it's done, there is something there. You have a computer program, or a finished result. As opposed to the meal, where there is less than you've started with, or nothing left at all.
Hm. So, is it that accomplishment & completion of an action is viewed with respect to some (tangible) result? In other words, when you're done programming, you have a tangible result --- the program. But when you're done eating, you have no tangible result --- there's no more meal. Is that closer?

A normally shy boy who's inhaled too much catnip smoke and is now behaving all outgoing would definitely be off his tesh! Humorously and temporarily it may be.
I love your examples! [xD] But yes, that would not be sani. An inner emotional conflict could lead to some similar, although less humorous, example.
Thanks! A person born through violence (a rape for example) will tend to be damaged, off tesh. I'd guess un-sani as well!
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Re: On the Concept of Sani

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this is quite interesting. (and welcome to the forum)
Noshi187 wrote: In a sani community, there are many different kinds of people, but they all share a sense of unity. In a sani house, the rooms differ from one another, perhaps in great degrees, but one walking through the house never gets the impression that they have gone from one house to another. In a sani workplace, many people are all performing different and seemingly unconnected functions, which all further whatever greater tasks the company seeks to do. In a sani person, one will find many different characteristics, traits, and interests, which outwardly may not seem compatible, but which all make sense for the person as a whole and do not clash with one another.
hm, so a packrat's house may still be sani; but an ecclectic collector's house would not be sani?
Thus, a person who pretends to be someone they are not, or who is not true to themselves, is not sani, and imitations of things are not sani. Lies are not sani, but simple, observational truths (e.g. The car is red) are not sani either. However, truth can make things sani, when it significantly furthers one's understanding.
The first part of this paragraph, led me to think that the Hao prefer not to make scale models of things - it would be un-sani to do so. The third part (about truth) makes me think that scale models would be perfectly sani (if they, for example, showed how trains work & perform their route)....but then the second part about observational truths reminds me that that might not be sani either.

Which of those is right? Or am I trying to apply to sani something that actually applies to a concept other than sani?
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Re: On the Concept of Sani

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Keenir wrote:this is quite interesting. (and welcome to the forum)
Thank you :)
hm, so a packrat's house may still be sani; but an ecclectic collector's house would not be sani?
I would actually say the opposite. The eclectic collector has a wide variety of different and strange items, but if they still feel like a cohesive collection (which, from my experience, they usually do), that would be very sani. It's a rather exemplary combination of diversity and unity. The packrat's collections might be sani, but certainly not if they arise from a harmful reluctance to letting things go that they so often do. That creates a discord that would prevent it from being sani.
The first part of this paragraph, led me to think that the Hao prefer not to make scale models of things - it would be un-sani to do so. The third part (about truth) makes me think that scale models would be perfectly sani (if they, for example, showed how trains work & perform their route)....but then the second part about observational truths reminds me that that might not be sani either.

Which of those is right? Or am I trying to apply to sani something that actually applies to a concept other than sani?
Hmm... I think imitation may not be the most accurate word. A scale model of a train, or an actor in a play, wouldn't really sani or not sani in that respect. You'd need some other criteria to base it on, or just leave it at that. But a forgery of a painting or signature is not sani. I guess it's more of a harmful imitation, but even that isn't completely it. The scale model of the train could be sani, if it stays true to what an actual train is like. That is, assuming the model is intended to educate someone about how trains work. If the train model is just a playtoy, then glaring innacuracies wouldn't be a problem--if it works, and it stays true to its role as a toy, it's sani. But try using that toy train as an educational model, and... well, you're not really doing anything bad if you're using it because you don't have anything else on hand. The problem is when a toy train tries to pass itself off as a educational model of a train. Ah, I'm wording it strangely, aren't I? The point is, imitation isn't bad, is dishonest imitation that crosses the line and is no longer sani.
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Re: On the Concept of Sani

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Noshi187 wrote:The scale model of the train could be sani, if it stays true to what an actual train is like. That is, assuming the model is intended to educate someone about how trains work. If the train model is just a playtoy, then glaring innacuracies wouldn't be a problem--if it works, and it stays true to its role as a toy, it's sani. But try using that toy train as an educational model, and... well, you're not really doing anything bad if you're using it because you don't have anything else on hand. The problem is when a toy train tries to pass itself off as a educational model of a train. Ah, I'm wording it strangely, aren't I? The point is, imitation isn't bad, is dishonest imitation that crosses the line and is no longer sani.
your explanation makes sense to me, if that helps.

thank you.
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Re: On the Concept of Sani

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Keenir wrote:your explanation makes sense to me, if that helps.

thank you.
You're welcome [:D]
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Re: On the Concept of Sani

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I'd just like to say I immensely enjoy this type of worldbuilding.
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Re: On the Concept of Sani

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Noshi187 wrote:
Keenir wrote: hm, so a packrat's house may still be sani; but an ecclectic collector's house would not be sani?
I would actually say the opposite. The eclectic collector has a wide variety of different and strange items, but if they still feel like a cohesive collection (which, from my experience, they usually do), that would be very sani. It's a rather exemplary combination of diversity and unity. The packrat's collections might be sani, but certainly not if they arise from a harmful reluctance to letting things go that they so often do. That creates a discord that would prevent it from being sani.

I've been thinking about this kind of example, and how the concepts of both sani and tesh might apply.

Tesh's fundamental is balance more than completion or wholeness, though clearly the two concepts intersect at points and interare in many respects.

I think from the Daine perspective of tesh it's the packrat who is more in balance, as far as lesser tesh is concerned, because the collecting accords with his personality. And as far as greater tesh is concerned, and as a more practical matter, in a non-disposable world you just don't throw things away when the get old and a bit worn. You refurbish, rebuild, recondition, recycle, reuse and pass along to someone else. The collector is the odd one and the out of balance one, not because his collections are random and eclectic, but because they serve no practical function. A collection of articles that ends up in a wonder cabinet steals the purpose away from those things and is thus out of balance as regards lesser tesh; in a world where certain resources are limited and all resources must be extracted only via physical labour or costly dwimcraft, not putting those things to some kind of use is nearly criminal as far as greater tesh is concerned.

(Greater and lesser tesh are just points of perspective: universal & oecumencal vs. individual & private.

So, I was wondering how the principal of sani applies in Hao culture (and I realise you haven't worked much in that direction yet) as regards behavioral, cognitive, social, etc. disorders.

Can it not be said that a hoarder's hoard is sani because all that random stuff comes along in accord with the underlying disorder? Likewise the homicidal maniac, the rapist & the paedophile? Can it be argued that their actions (murder, rape & child sexual abuse) are sani because they in accord with the perpetrators' normative personality and brain architecture?

I guess the underlying question is: does sani have an underlying or overarching moral component, some broader rule by which some actions are measured and judged?

Tesh has no explicit moral component --- which is why there can be conflict between strata of lesser & greater tesh. But on the other hand, there is a clearly implicit moral component: one whose behaviour is in balance according to greater tesh is by definition behaving morally.

A Daine would look at a rapist among Men and, perhaps quite matter-of-factly, state that his lesser tesh ìs balanced because his rapes are aligned with his personality. Even his greater tesh might be in balance if the rape is of the Sabine sort, rather than the aggressive application of power through violence and is thus a matter more of social & tribal survival. All the while, according to tesh in the oecumenical or universal sense, his action is clearly out of balance (and thus not moral). Also, Men are among the Fallen and thus prone to such failings and are thus expected to behave poorly.

The same Daine would look at a rapist among Daine and, with a sense of true horror, state that at all levels sexual rape is a Thing Nòt Done by Daine and such a doer is completely out of balance. Defective even. And clearly a chooser of moral evil over moral good. He can barely comprehend that someone would even contemplate doing this. Daine are not among the Fallen, and as such, they expect better of themselves and others.

NB: I should note that marriage by capture is a thing in many Daine societies. If it's a Sabine Rape, then, of course, before the seizing partner can consummate the marriage, one must first try to "make good". The captured partner can not be forced into the relationship and must be treated with dignity and respect as any other marriage partner would be. The captured partner also the right, having accepted marriage, to leave after providing the capturing partner a child; or, having refused marriage, to leave after a year of captivity in lieu.

If it's an individual marriage by capture, it's usually a Hulyus and Rumiyelle situation where neither partner particularly feels like dying at the end, so will arrange for one of them to capture the other. Upon successful return home, the family of the capturee will have no choice but to accept the marriage. But of course, the capturing partner's family will have to provide suitable gifts, wedding festivities and so forth.

Tesh is maintained all around!
gestaltist wrote:I'd just like to say I immensely enjoy this type of worldbuilding.
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Noshi187
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Re: On the Concept of Sani

Post by Noshi187 »

Can it not be said that a hoarder's hoard is sani because all that random stuff comes along in accord with the underlying disorder? Likewise the homicidal maniac, the rapist & the paedophile? Can it be argued that their actions (murder, rape & child sexual abuse) are sani because they in accord with the perpetrators' normative personality and brain architecture?

I guess the underlying question is: does sani have an underlying or overarching moral component, some broader rule by which some actions are measured and judged?
Wow, I'm getting to answer a lot of interesting questions! I would say that, although the behavior may line up with their personality, these people are not sani, as the root of these behaviors--the "normative" personality--is inherently discordant. Whatever brain architecture motivates a murderer to kill is clearly not sani. If there is a chemical imbalance, that obviously isn't sani, and if certain past events drove them to that behavior, then they likely weren't like that before, and this conflict of selves makes it un-sani also. So on a certain level, they may seem sani, but the underlying causes are not, so the actions arising from them cannot be either. Not to mention, the people affected by these actions would become emotionally conflicted as well, so neither the origin nor the outcome are sani.
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