Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audience?

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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

Post by LinguistCat »

eldin raigmore wrote:
alynnidalar wrote: if anyone's not familiar with the term, "urban fantasy" is the usual term these days for fantasy that takes place in the modern world. ...
"Urban" seems more to be used as if a code-word for "nearly all the main characters are African-American".
IOW it doesn't mean what it seems to say it means. Instead it means something else. But nobody who uses the word will say so. They expect the readers and bookbuyers to figure it out.
If this has been your experience, could you give me some examples? Urban fantasy is one of my favorite subgenres, but I don't remember reading any preponderance of any race except maybe white. But then I might be imagining characters white when they've been described otherwise.
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

Post by alynnidalar »

eldin raigmore wrote:
alynnidalar wrote: if anyone's not familiar with the term, "urban fantasy" is the usual term these days for fantasy that takes place in the modern world. ...
"Urban" seems more to be used as if a code-word for "nearly all the main characters are African-American".
IOW it doesn't mean what it seems to say it means. Instead it means something else. But nobody who uses the word will say so. They expect the readers and bookbuyers to figure it out.
Uh. I read an awful lot of urban fantasy, and this is not at all the case in my experience. In fact, I can't think of any popular urban fantasy novels with a majority of black characters. I'm with LinguistCat--can you provide any examples of this?

You may be confusing "urban" as a generic adjective with the specific phrase "urban fantasy".

EDIT: for that matter, I can't think of any really well-known urban fantasy novels that even have the protagonist being black, regardless of the ethnicities of supporting characters. Blade, I guess, but that's not a novel.
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

Post by sangi39 »

eldin raigmore wrote:
Micamo wrote:I'll be honest, I don't think a female character who uses her sexuality to destroy men like a predator, whether in a supernatural sense like a succubus or in a more mundane way like the femme fatale, has any value played straight. It honestly only makes sense turned on its head, with the feelings of the woman centered rather than the men who desire and fear her.
I don't know that Micamo is 100% correct about everything in that quote; but definitely I'd be more interested in the story if it were told from the succubus's point-of-view, especially if she were capable of regret, and pity for her victims. Like vampirism or lycanthropy, if the "monster" wishes s/he didn't have to be a monster, or wanted to protect some set of people (e.g. their family and friends from before they were monster-ified; or just people they happened to genuinely like; or maybe anyone who didn't give their informed consent); then their emotions would make for a better story. Probably the best way to do that would be to have them interact with another monster who very much liked being a full-on monster and had no desire to protect anyone. And/or have the protagonist have a conflict between protecting a "normal" and protecting a fellow monster.

What about incubi?

What about the idea that succubi and incubi are the same demon? Because demons, being things of the Devil, can't create life -- only things of God can create life -- if an incubus wants to impregnate a mortal woman, it must get the seed from a mortal man, which it acquires by becoming a succubus and seducing the man.


I kind of mentioned something similar further up the thread (some internal struggle between the "monster" and "morality"), but I didn't think of representing two different ways of being a succubus.

Then again, isn't that somewhat "tropy" as well. Angel vs. the other vampires in Buffy and Angel, the vampires in Twilight and, to an extent, in Underworld and Blade. Obviously Jekyll and Hyde as well, and I haven't seen it in a while but didn't Interview With a Vampire roughly cover the internal conflicts of learning to live as a vampire?

I guess it depends on world-building and character-building really. "Tropy" in and of itself isn't necessarily a problem, but people are seemingly more willing to overlook that if you bring something fresh and well-written to the idea.

I quite like Eldin's idea, making the succubus more than just some sexual demonic being and expanding on the mythology to give it a reason behind its actions that isn't just "feeding off of humans". Why sex? Because without a human involved the succubus can't reproduce. Why does it kill men after sex? Because it needs the additional energy to successfully complete the transition from female to male to move on to a female "target".

And once you make it about reproduction you can look into whether the succubus/incubus forms emotional connections with its targets. Do some stick around to raise their children or do they leave to go on to have more children (which then leads to the question of if they do, do they need to find a new male victim and if that's the case, then how do they revert back to a female form)? Do succubi/incubi born to human parents instinctively know that's what they are or do they have to find out? And when do they find out? Is it during the first time she has sex with a man without using protection and instinct takes over?
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

Post by eldin raigmore »

alynnidalar wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:"Urban" seems more to be used as if a code-word for "nearly all the main characters are African-American".
You may be confusing "urban" as a generic adjective with the specific phrase "urban fantasy".
I think you're right; I was confused. I think "urban" means "mostly black main characters" when applied to mainstream fiction, but not when applied to e.g. fantasy.
alynnidalar wrote:I'm with doomie--can you provide any examples of this?
I am Alzheimerishly bad at remembering when I read something, where I read it, the publication's name, the author's name, and sometimes even the story's title or the character's name.
alynnidalar wrote:for that matter, I can't think of any really well-known urban fantasy novels that even have the protagonist being black, regardless of the ethnicities of supporting characters.
Balder Moon Shadow in Neil Gaiman's American Gods. But I fear that's the only one where I can remember the character, author, and title. At least at the moment.

LinguistCat wrote:If this has been your experience, could you give me some examples? Urban fantasy is one of my favorite subgenres, but I don't remember reading any preponderance of any race except maybe white. But then I might be imagining characters white when they've been described otherwise.
I remember a "North American Magic Realism" novel, set in an urban landscape, in which the protagoniste (a magic-user drafted-by-chance into opposing the forces of evil) was Native American (I forget which tribe or never remembered); naturally most of her family and some of her friends were also Native American, and some of the other main characters were among her friends and family.
I also read a couple of books in a whole series of novels about a she-werewolf motorcycle-mechanic. She, also, was Native American.

So there's some non-white examples. If you can count them as examples when I can't remember the citation details.

Nalo Hopkinson's Brown Girl In the Ring is pretty exciting; it's set in Toronto IIRC. The heroine is black. Some of her helpers and some of her opponents are also black. And Wikipedia does indeed classify it as "urban fantasy".

I can't at the moment think of any Octavia Butler modern-urban-setting magic realism; doesn't mean she didn't write any.

tl;dr summary:
I was wrong. You were right. And it's a damn'd interesting topic.
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

Post by LinguistCat »

eldin raigmore wrote:
LinguistCat wrote:If this has been your experience, could you give me some examples? Urban fantasy is one of my favorite subgenres, but I don't remember reading any preponderance of any race except maybe white. But then I might be imagining characters white when they've been described otherwise.
I remember a "North American Magic Realism" novel, set in an urban landscape, in which the protagoniste (a magic-user drafted-by-chance into opposing the forces of evil) was Native American (I forget which tribe or never remembered); naturally most of her family and some of her friends were also Native American, and some of the other main characters were among her friends and family.
I also read a couple of books in a whole series of novels about a she-werewolf motorcycle-mechanic. She, also, was Native American.

So there's some non-white examples. If you can count them as examples when I can't remember the citation details.

Nalo Hopkinson's Brown Girl In the Ring is pretty exciting; it's set in Toronto IIRC. The heroine is black. Some of her helpers and some of her opponents are also black. And Wikipedia does indeed classify it as "urban fantasy".

I can't at the moment think of any Octavia Butler modern-urban-setting magic realism; doesn't mean she didn't write any.
Thank you for these in any case, it gives me a start to look into. Even if I don't find the exact books, maybe I'll find a few hidden treasures that are in a similar vein. [:D]
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

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Re: American Gods
Spoiler:
eldin raigmore wrote: Balder Moon in Neil Gaiman's American Gods.
The main character of American Gods is named Shadow; that
Spoiler:
he's (possibly) Balder
is a pretty big spoiler :)
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

Post by Salmoneus »

Yeah, that kind of pissed me off, to be honest. I know the book's been out for ages, but it's an ongoing TV series right now, and it would seem respectful not to spoil it for people who haven't read the book.
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

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Salmoneus wrote:Yeah, that kind of pissed me off, to be honest. I know the book's been out for ages, but it's an ongoing TV series right now, and it would seem respectful not to spoil it for people who haven't read the book.
Balder is just his name. He isn't Baldur (which is spelled a bit different, isn't it). Thor Heyerdahl isn't Thor; Jesus Garcia isn't Jesus; why would Balder Moon be Baldur?
Edit: And oh, yeah, Apollo Creed isn't Apollo.
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

Post by alynnidalar »

That Shadow could even possibly be someone other than simply a dude named Shadow Moon is, I feel, inherently spoilerish.
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

Post by Axiem »

Re: American Gods
Spoiler:
eldin raigmore wrote: Balder is just his name.
No it isn't.
He isn't Baldur (which is spelled a bit different, isn't it).
Baldur and Balder are alternate spellings for the same god, Baldr.
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

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Well that was a tangent and a half [:P]
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

Post by Rheddie »

I don't see why succubi should be seen as cheesy. Lots of modern fantasy has them in it.
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

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Rheddie wrote:I don't see why succubi should be seen as cheesy. Lots of modern fantasy has them in it.
I think the original question might be better interpreted as "is there a way for succubi to be used in fiction without being too cliche?" and there are certainly a lot of different ways of going about that, as discussed further up the thread [:)]
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

Post by eldin raigmore »

Rheddie wrote:I don't see why succubi should be seen as cheesy. Lots of modern fantasy has them in it.
Maybe they work in a pizzeria?
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

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eldin raigmore wrote:
Rheddie wrote:I don't see why succubi should be seen as cheesy. Lots of modern fantasy has them in it.
Maybe they work in a pizzeria?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcYppAs6ZdI
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

Post by Egerius »

May I recommend a movie?
Knights of Badassdom (2013) – a succubus stars as the main antagonist.
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

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Egerius wrote:May I recommend a movie?
Knights of Badassdom (2013) – a succubus stars as the main antagonist.
Wonderful film! [:D] A LARP-based horror comedy that I watch a couple of times a year.
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So close your eyes once more and once more believe
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Re: Is the idea of a succubus too cheesy for a modern audien

Post by eldin raigmore »

Egerius wrote:May I recommend a movie?
Knights of Badassdom (2013) – a succubus stars as the main antagonist.
Never seen it before! But, based on the trailers, I think I should and (someday) shall!
Edit: Just saw it. On Netflix. Gave it 4 out of 5 stars, for "Really Liked It". (3 stars is "Liked It" and 5 stars is "Loved It".)
Was interested to see that someone named Rizwan worked on it. I had a Pakistani colleague once named Rizwan.
Don't think the "succubus" was anything like the traditional demon.
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