Naming Practices

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holbuzvala
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Naming Practices

Post by holbuzvala »

How do names work in your conculture? Are people given names at birth? Do people inherit names of their parents? Do people acquire new names from going through adulthood/marriage rituals? Are names chosen by an elder/shaman? Do people of a shared tribe/clan share a name? Do siblings share a name? Etc.

And secondly, what do names mean? Are they special grammatical forms of words? Are they deliberately meaningless lexemes? Are they portmonteaus of qualities parents desire in a child? (Like kind + generous = Kinderous)

Let me know! I’m curious. And then I’ll post how the System for Azvolaj speakers works :)
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by gestaltist »

As luck would have it, I am working on the naming practices of an as of yet unpublished conculture. I have decided that a full name for a member of such a conculture will consist of three elements: family name, birthname, and a nickname.

The family name take a special noun class prefix modifying the root for a given clan. It is always given first when presenting someone, and is considered as the most important, as this conculture cares a lot about social standing and ancestry. (I am currently deliberating on how close-knit the clans should be, and what the role of the clan's head is. We'll see. They will be definitely an important part of everybody's life.)

The birthname is the name given to the child by the parents and/or their extended family at birth. It is always meaningful, and often consists of several words. It can be something that the parents felt represents their feelings for the child (something like our name "Rose" or "Lily"). It can link to the child's birthplace (naming children after rivers, towns, etc., is common.) Finally, for the upper classes, it can be meant to convey the high status of the family. (E.g., a lot of noble names contain the word for "elephant" or "silk" as owning either is a tell-tale sign of wealth. So you can have names like "Golden Elephant", "Elephant Tusk", "Silk Scarf" or even "Silken Elephant".) I have modeled this after the naming conventions of Ancient Greece to an extent.

Finally, the nickname is typically a name a person earned through their behavior. They could have more than one nickname, frequently depending on the social context (e.g., a childhood nickname used by their friends, a nickname earned in their profession, and another one used by their spouse). The nickname can be given by others or invented by the person bearing it. Its legitimacy hinges on its actual usage. It is often also meaningful like the birthname but it will usually be short and to-the-point. It can also be onomatopoeic or ideophonic.

People are usually referred to by their nickname if they've earned one in a given social circle. Family name + birthname are used in formal contexts and when talking to strangers/people outside own social group or higher on the social ladder (e.g., when a noble speaks with commoners, commoners would never be allowed to use a nickname when talking to the noble. The noble could have nicknames for the commoners, though.)
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by lsd »

In language a priori (called philosphic language), I always hesitate between:
- folk Native American names (I don't know if true) where an event of life baptizes the one who lived it...
- Mandarin Chinese where any syllables chosen, especially for foreign names, are meaningfull...
- some western names where the circumstances of the birth are evoked (dolores, désiré,...)
- modern societies where everyone wears a number often from his place and date of birth...
(already posted in viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6415 )
holbuzvala
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by holbuzvala »

Very interesting! I like the mix of given names from family, parents, and subsequently nicknames; and I verily like the special noun class prefix.

For Azvolaj speakers, names are whole sentences that make use of the noun-incorporation capability of verbs (and adjectives, because adjectives function as verbs), and have the form as follows:

NOUN1-ADJ/INTRANSITIVE.VERB NOUN2-TRANSITIVE.VERB

The nouns are usually physical phenomena, such as weather, plants, animals, part of the body, and geographical features

A list of possible nouns
Spoiler:
fish, bird, dog, tree, seed, leaf, wind, river, root, bone, eye, tooth, fang, hand, foot, stone, heart, liver, sun, moon, stars, rain, cloud, smoke, fire, ash, mountain, ear, nose, head, feather, back, plain, elk, skin
The adjectives and intransitive verbs are usually tangible or perceptible qualities, like colours, sizes, small numbers, and verbs of motion.

A list of possible adjs/int.vbs
Spoiler:
young, old, dry, wet, run, swim, laugh, black, white, red, yellow, green, stand, hard, soft, big, small, good, shining, dark, strong, crooked, long, flat, tall, straight, heavy, light, quick, slow, jump, calm, two, cold, hot, smooth, rough
The transitive verbs are physical human verbs (apart from 'to know'), and causative verbs.

A list of possible tr.vbs
Spoiler:
eat, drink, bite, see, hear, know, kill, give, burn, carry, push, spit, break, hold, lift, stomp on, bring, grasp, steal, strengthen
Here are two example names:

Vońvisuk kiBnósizçada

voń-visuk ki-bnósiz-çada

river-red n1-fish-eat

"Red River Eats Fish"

And

Gavlnekzí kiDzanízuga

gavl-nekzí ki-dzaní-zuga

teeth-crooked n1-mountain-see

"Crooked Teeth Sees Mountain"



How people acquire their names is rather complex. Names are created by mixing the names of the parents, along with allowing the choosing of a given name for the child. Let's say we have a couple having children together: the mother is Red River Eats Fish (Vońvisuk kiBnósizçada), and the father is Crooked Teeth Sees Mountain (Gavlnekzí kiDzanízuga). Their first male child will have the name Crooked X Sees Fish (X-nekzí ki-Bnōsizzuga), where 'X' is a name the parents choose. The first female child will be called Red X Eats Mountain (X-visuk kiDzaníçada), where 'X' is a name the parents choose. The 2nd male child will have the name Crooked X Eats Mountain, and the 2nd female child Red X Sees Fish.

This pattern becomes more interesting once we reach the 4th child of a given sex. The 4th male child will have the name X Teeth Sees Fish; and the 4th female X River Eats Mountain. Here's the chart with the father's name of the form F1-F2 F3-F4, and the mother's name M1-M2 M3-M4.

Male Children
Spoiler:
1. X-F2 M3-F4
2. X-F2 F3-M4
3. X-M2 F3-F4
4. F1-X M3-F4
5. F1-X F3-M4
6. M1-X F3-F4
7. F1-M2 X-F4
8. F1-F2 X-M4
9. M1-F2 X-F4
10. F1-M2 F3-X
11. F1-F2 M3-X
12. M1-F2 F3-X

The pattern for female children is the same, but with the 'M's and 'F's reversed.
Azvolaj speakers, when filling out a government document and need to state their 'full name', simply write their name followed by the name of their mother, then the name of their father. So if Vońvisuk kiBnósizçada and Gavlnekzí kiDzanízuga have a male child called Ǵevevnekzí kiBnósizzuga, then when Ǵevevnekzí needs to fill out his driver's license application at the DMV, the name on the form will be Ǵevevnekzí kiBnósizzuga Vońvisuk kiBnósizçada Gavlnekzí kiDzanízuga. Maybe there's be an inbetween word meaning 'son of', but I've not invented that yet. What do you think?
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by holbuzvala »

P.S. As names get pretty long, people usually make nicknames for people by taking the first syllable of each part of their first name.

E.g.

Vońvisuk -> Vońvi
Gavlnekzí -> Gavlne
Ǵevevidre -> Ǵevid (looks strangely similar to David. Maybe this is how foreigners' names are formed through backwards reconstruction...hmm...)
Jafaītzuku -> Jatzu
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by Reyzadren »

A name is initially given by the parent(s) in the family, but it can be kept as an official name, or discarded upon selecting a name for oneself while still keeping the given name amongst family usage.

Griuskant names usually don't mean anything, and are actually encouraged to have no meaning as to easily identify them as proper nouns/names in a sentence. It is only 1 name with 2 or more syllables, rarely 1 syllable. (No first name, last name)
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by Man in Space »

Tim Ar given names tend to be nominalized sentences, e.g. É3enghuúühé é3en khuú ü hé "he rides the wind". These are usually followed by the patronymic/matronymic particle and then the name of the same-sex parent.
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CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by lsd »

Verbless, I have no difference between word and sentence, the difficulty is to define a single man...
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by eldin raigmore »

holbuzvala wrote: 24 Nov 2017 11:58How do names work in your conculture?
Answering only for Adpihi and Reptigan, because they're related cultures to each other, and because I don't have anything worked out for Ataivsh (Arpien) or any other concultures (can't even remember whether I have any others!).

holbuzvala wrote: 24 Nov 2017 11:58Are people given names at birth?
Yes.

holbuzvala wrote: 24 Nov 2017 11:58Do people inherit names of their parents?
Depends what you mean.
There are three line-names and two formal individual names. (There are also "nicknames", a bit more formal than *our* "nicknames", but a bit more free-form then *their* "formal names".)
All line-names are inherited from a parent.
Formal individual-names are inherited mostly from collateral "ancestors", but never from parents; nobody has the same individual name as a parent or a sibling.
(Formal first individual-names are inherited from great-great-grandparents and great-granduncles and great-grandaunts.)
(Formal second individual-names are inherited from great-great-grandparents and great-granduncles and great-grandaunts.)

holbuzvala wrote: 24 Nov 2017 11:58Do people acquire new names from going through adulthood/marriage rituals?
Yes, and/or other events; some by their own choice. These are all grouped under the term "nicknames"; which may not carry exactly the same connotation that "nickname" does in our culture.

holbuzvala wrote: 24 Nov 2017 11:58Are names chosen by an elder/shaman?
Again, depends what you mean.
A baby boy's first nickname is chosen by his father's mother. That's the name he's called en famille except when he's called by his two-part formal individual name.
A baby girl's first nickname is chosen by her mother's father. That's the name she's called en famille except when she's called by her two-part formal individual name.
I'm choosing to interpret "elder" as including "grandparent".

holbuzvala wrote: 24 Nov 2017 11:58Do people of a shared tribe/clan share a name?
Line-names are inherited from a parent, so people related by certain lines of descent share a line-name.
The first line-name, the matriline or matriclan name, is always inherited from the individual's mother's matriclan.
The second line-name, the patriline or patriclan name, is always inherited from the individual's father's patriclan.
The third line-name, the "rope name" or "geun name" or "alterclan name", is inherited from the parent of the opposite sex;
a boy's "rope name" is his mother's "rope name", while a girl's "rope name" is her father's "rope name".

holbuzvala wrote: 24 Nov 2017 11:58Do siblings share a name?
All the children of any one mother share her matriline-name with her and with each other.
All the children of any one father share his patriline-name with him and with each other.
All the sons of any one mother share her "rope name" with her and with each other.
All the daughters of any one father share his "rope name" with him and with each other.
So full-sisters share all three line-names; and full-brothers share all three line-names.
A full-brother and a full-sister share their matriline-name and their patri-line name, but not their rope-name.
Half-brothers who are sons of the same mother but different fathers share her matriline name and her "rope name"; but they might have different patriline names.
Half-sisters who are daughters of the same father but different mothers share his patriline name and his "rope name"; but they might have different matriline names.
Half-siblings who aren't both male, and share their mother but have different fathers, will share her matriline name, but may share no other line-name.
Half-siblings who aren't both female, and share their father but have different mothers, will share his patriline name, but may share no other line-name.
Siblings never share an individual name; however someone who knows their clan and its traditions (e.g. other members of the same clan) may be able to see a connection between their individual names.

holbuzvala wrote: 24 Nov 2017 11:58And secondly, what do names mean? Are they special grammatical forms of words? Are they deliberately meaningless lexemes? Are they portmanteaux of qualities parents desire in a child? (Like kind + generous = Kinderous)
"Maybe" and "for some" are the answers to all those questions.
There are only 1001 formal names. Some are one syllable, most are two, and maybe a few are three.
143 matriline names
143 patriline names
143 "rope" names
143 first-elements of male formal individual-names
143 first-elements of female formal individual-names
143 second-elements of male formal individual-names
143 second-elements of female formal individual-names
These are all very traditional.
The clan-names (line-names) reportedly mean, or once meant, something that was descriptive of the clan when it was named, and was a quality or possession they were proud of.
The individual names, likewise, reportedly mean, or once meant, something the parents had in mind concerning their child, which they either hoped for the child, or were proud had already happened for the child.

Each of a child's "godparents" (i.e. voluntary designated alternate parents, in case something happens), attends the child's naming-ceremony, and is permitted to give the child one nickname.
Spoiler:
This usually includes each of the child's grandparents, each adult sibling of either parent, and each adult sibling of the child (if any). It also often includes good friends of either parent; possibly including some noticeably older or younger than the parent(s).
These nicknames can be highly varied. It is considered desirable that each godparent not have two different godchildren with the same nickname. So the nicknames might be more than one word long; or might be more than three syllables long.
A first son's first individual name, is inherited from his father's father's father's father;
a second son's first individual name, is inherited from his father’s mother's father;
a third son's first individual name, is often inherited from his father's father's oldest brother;
Spoiler:
a fourth son's first individual name, is often inherited from his father's mother’s oldest brother;
a fifth son's first individual name, is often inherited from his father's father's second-oldest brother;
a sixth son's first individual name, is often inherited from his father's mother's second-oldest brother;
And so on, through all the brothers of the father’s parents, alternating between the father's father’s side and the father’s mother's side.
If this system would cause a name to be duplicated -- that is, yields the same first individual name as the boy's father or one of his older brothers -- that name is skipped and the next in the sequence is taken.
So depending on the father’s birth-order and his relevant parent’s birth-order, the father’s uncles’ names might be used in some order other than stated above.
After about the ninth son, there’s little chance the father won’t have run out of uncles.
If he does have more sons (after the first two) than uncles, he’ll think of something else to name his later-born sons.
For instance, he might 1st-name his sons after their mother’s
Edit: grandfathers and
uncles.

A first daughter's first individual name, is inherited from her mother's mother's mother;
a second daughter's first individual name, is inherited from her mother’s father's mother;
a third daughter's first individual name, is often inherited from her mother's mother's oldest sister;
and so on, through all the mother’s parent’s sisters, alternating between the mother’s mother's side and the mother’s father's side.

If this system would cause a name to be duplicated -- that is, yields the same first individual name as the girl’s mother or one of her older sisters -- that name is skipped and the next in the sequence is taken.
So depending on the mother’s birth-order and her relevant parent’s birth-order, the mother’s aunt’s names might be used in some order other than stated above.
After about the ninth daughter, there’s little chance the mother won’t have run out of aunts.
If she does have more daughters (after the first two) than aunts, she’ll think of something else to name her later-born daughters.
Maybe she’ll name her daughter’s after their father’s
Edit: grandmothers and
aunts.

This system makes a line of fathers-and-first-sons rotate among a cycle of three first individual names.
If Alfred's first son is Bob, and Bob's first son is Chuck, then Chuck's first son will be Alfred again; and this Alfred's first son will be Bob again; and so on.
Likewise a line of mothers-and-first-daughters will rotate among a cycle of three first individual names.
Edit: If a highly-prolific couple's great-grandparents had few children, the couple may run out of first-individual-names of direct and collateral ancestors of the appropriate generations, while they still have sons or daughters (as the case may be) to name. If that happens they will proceed to use names of more distant relatives; perhaps the first-cousins of the child's great-grandparents (the couples' grandparents)? I'd have to check if that would make sense and/or work.
I'm thinking they'd prefer the names of deceased relatives, the deceaseder the better and the relateder the better.
I'm also thinking they'd disprefer the names of living relatives; in this case, the closer the (living) relative, the more dispreferred the name.
And if they ran out of names of relatives, or just couldn't think of any, they'd start using the names of friends of the couples' grandparents, or highly admired historical figures of the couple's grandparents' or great-grandparents' generations, or celebrities of bygone generations, or something.

Second individual names will also be inherited via a similar system with some key differences.
First, the names will come from the second individual names of the opposite-sex parent’s great-grandparents and granduncles (for boys) or grandaunts (for girls), rather than the parent’s grandparent and uncles or aunts.
(This will make it more generations before a combination of first-individual-name and second-individual-name must repeat.)
Second:
A mother’s first son's second individual name will be his mother's father's mother’s father’s second individual name.
Her second son's second individual name will be his mother’s mother’s mother's father's 2nd individual name;
Her third son's second individual name will be his mother's father's father's father’s 2nd individual name;
Her fourth son's second individual name will be his mother’s mother’s father's father's 2nd individual name.
So a line of mothers-and-first-sons will rotate between a cycle of four 2nd individual names.
For example, if Alice’s first son is Bob, and Bob’s first daughter is Carol, and Carol’s first son is Dan, then Dan’s first daughter will be Alice again; and this Alice’s first son will be Bob again; and so on.
Spoiler:
The mother’s fifth and later sons will often be named for her grandparents' brothers. For instance, her fifth son might be named for her father’s mother’s oldest brother; then her sixth son might be named after her mother’s mother’s oldest brother, her seventh son might be named after her father’s father's oldest brother, and her eighth son might be named after her mother’s father's oldest brother.
Her ninth through twelfth sons' 2nd individual names might come from her grandparents' 2nd-oldest brothers.
As with 1st individual names, if the designated collateral ancestor does not exist, or the name would result in a duplication, that position is skipped and the name chosen comes from the next collateral ancestor in the sequence.
Again, this is all much more likely to be done in exactly this sequence, if the mother’s birth-order, and her relevant parent’s birth-order, and that parent’s relevant parent’s birth-order, are all early-ish.
Otherwise the mother’s granduncles’ 2nd individual names, might be used in some other sequence than the above.
A father’s first daughter's second individual name will be her father's mother’s father's mother's second individual name;
and so on, similar to what happens for a mother’s sons, except the sexes will be swapped.
So a line of fathers-and-first-daughters will rotate through a cycle of four 2nd individual names.
Edit: If a highly-prolific couple's grandparents had few children, the couple may run out of second-individual-names of direct and collateral ancestors of the appropriate generations, while they still have sons or daughters (as the case may be) to name. If that happens they will proceed to use names of more distant relatives; perhaps the first-cousins of the child's grandparents (the couples' parents)? I'd have to check if that would make sense and/or work.
I'm thinking they'd prefer the names of deceased relatives, the deceaseder the better and the relateder the better.
I'm also thinking they'd disprefer the names of living relatives; in this case, the closer the (living) relative, the more dispreferred the name.
And if they ran out of names of relatives, or just couldn't think of any, they'd start using the names of friends of the couples' parents, or highly admired historical figures of the couple's parents' or grandparents' generations, or celebrities of the previous generation, or something.

Last edited by eldin raigmore on 16 Nov 2023 06:49, edited 17 times in total.
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by elemtilas »

eldin raigmore wrote: 26 Nov 2017 02:57 How do names work in your conculture? Answering only for Adpihi and Reptigan, because they're related cultures to each other, and because I don't have anything worked out for Arpien or any other concultures.
A very thorough description, indeed!
eldin raigmore wrote: 26 Nov 2017 02:57 (There are also "nicknames", a bit more formal than *our* "nicknames", but a bit more free-form then *their* "formal names".)

Do people acquire new names from going through adulthood/marriage rituals? Yes, and/or other events; some by their own choice. These are all grouped under the term "nicknames"; which may not carry exactly the same connotation that "nickname" does in our culture.
So, I'm interested in these less formal names. What is implied by "may not carry the same connotation"? I guess a question that seeks answer to what kind of nickname *here* are you talking about? What cultural milieu? Why a/o why not might these compare crossworldwise? In other words, what dó Adpihians and Reptiganders mean by "nickname"?
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by eldin raigmore »

elemtilas wrote: 26 Nov 2017 03:23
eldin raigmore wrote: 26 Nov 2017 02:57 (There are also "nicknames", a bit more formal than *our* "nicknames", but a bit more free-form then *their* "formal names".)

Do people acquire new names from going through adulthood/marriage rituals? Yes, and/or other events; some by their own choice. These are all grouped under the term "nicknames"; which may not carry exactly the same connotation that "nickname" does in our culture.
So, I'm interested in these less formal names.
elemtilas wrote: 26 Nov 2017 03:23What is implied by "may not carry the same connotation"?
I mean an Adpihi or Reptigan "nickname" may not be teasing or irreverent or disrespectful or joshing or vulgar etc., like many of ours are even between friends.
The person's first nickname -- that given by whichever grandparent didn't contribute a line-name -- probably reflects some emotion felt by that grandparent on hearing the news of the birth or on first seeing the grandchild. For instance it might be "God's answer to my prayer", or "Another damn mouth to feed", or something like that. Although it's probably going to be complimentary and affectionate; or it might be tragic, if the mother died in childbirth or the father died before the child was born or something. It could also be descriptive, containing words like "loud" or "red" or "pees like a fountain" or something.

Later "nicknames" will be similar to, say, passing degrees in freemasonry, or a college degree or professional degree or graduate-school degree. Or, something like a job-title (with a little bit of job-description).

And of course there will be nicknames based on deeds, or on characteristics not obvious on birth; like "strong" or "fast" or "won the game for us" or "really big" or "tiny".

elemtilas wrote: 26 Nov 2017 03:23I guess a question that seeks answer to what kind of nickname *here* are you talking about? What cultural milieu?
I'm thinking of team sports, of same-sex youth-groups (say a neighborhood gang or a streetball team), or what you see in movies and TV shows, especially film noir gangster movies.
Spoiler:
Though Jesus called one of his disciples "Rocky". And he had two disciples both named Jim; a wrestler (a big muscular guy)[citation needed] and a camel-jockey[citation needed] (jockeys are usually small and try to stay lightweight). He called the jockey "Big Jim" (James the Greater) and called the wrestler "Little Jim" (James the Less). (Big Jim and John were brothers, sons of Zebedee, IIANM; Little Jim and Matt were brothers, sons of Alphaeus IIANM.)
elemtilas wrote: 26 Nov 2017 03:23Why a/o why not might these compare crossworldwise? In other words, what dó Adpihians and Reptiganders mean by "nickname"?
The nickname a person receives at marriage may be the pet-name by which their new spouse calls them, or something similar. It's probably chosen with the consent of the person getting nicknamed.
If a person gets nicknamed as part of graduating from some course, or being admitted to some society (in both cases I'm thinking of the Order of the Arrow), in Adpihi the name chosen is with the consent of the person nicknamed. It's also chosen so that those close to him/her in the society or course feel they can reasonably be sure who is being referred to if that name is used in that person's absence.
When a person goes through the vision-quest or bat-mitzvah or whatever ceremony marks them as no longer a child but now an adult, s/he chooses his/her own nickname, after careful and long thought, and with the advice of his/her teachers or older students.

Of course, some of the nicknames are bestowed upon them by associates, just so they can be spoken about to newer associates who will immediately know to whom reference is being made. So names like "Cowlick" or "Freckles" or "Four-eyes" or "Skinny" will occur in Adpihi and Reptigan. They're just less common *there* than *here*; *here* most "nicknames" are bestowed without consulting the person nicknamed, *there* most are conferred with the nicknamed one's active consent.


Edit: BTW: I really like several of the posts on this thread! Holbuzvala's and Gestaltist's and Linguifex's come to mind in particular, for instance. There are also at least two other systems that are very interesting!
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by Salmoneus »

Wenthish people typically have three names: a first name, a second name, and a surname.

The first name is traditionally the name of a saint.The core of the small number of first names are the names of early Irish missionaries to the islands, supplemented with some names of Christianised pagan figures. Thus, names such as Brenda, Fjona and Fillog are accompanied by those such as Wǫða, Thunn, and Eggel. A few names of Norse origin have also entered this category, such as Ólava, Thorfin, and Mónos. Later, Puritan families sought names from the Bible - such as Yón, Yacób, and Daved - while Catholics looked further abroad for Catholic saints, such as Patrek, Innokent, and Ynatjus. Later still, cosmopolitan families looked abroad for common foreign names that happened to have the sanction of a saint - male names particularly look to Scandinavia, such as Nies and Hass, while female names often look to England, such as Seselie and Margeret. In general, however, first names are drawn from a relatively limited stock of possible names.

The second name is in most cases a 'binomial' name, composed of two elements taken from Germanic stock. It is common for these elements to be taken from the names of relatives. Common names of this kind include the male Riekjard, Wolfgár, and Isenhjowm, and the female Aðefryðe, Wylfeflaðe, and Bráðwynne. Additionally, certain fixed names are found, often borrowed from notable religious or political figures - such as the feminine Djacobette or the masculine Hácon.

The third name is a patronymic. It is formed from the first name of the father, suffixed with -sson (for males) or -dotter (for females). In the southern islands, the former may instead be rendered -ssa. Where the father is unknown, absent (including dead) or the child wishes to dissociate from them, traditionally the child takes the first name of their mother's grandfather, with the suffixes -nøva (for males) or -nift (for females); this may also be found with orphans, who take the name of their guardian in this way. Matronymics were traditionally only found where both the father and the mother's father were either unknown, contemptible, or unwilling to associate with the child, and hence were marks of shame. However, in the 20th century such names began to become more common, particularly with the children of unmarried or divorced mothers.



Throughout history, various forms of 'fourth name' have been used; however, all such names have long since fallen out of use, and modern fourth names stem from the 20th century revival of the honours system. Fourth names are adopted by those who receive high honours, or who are elected to the upper house; traditionally, those of a military background choose more grandiloquent analogues to traditional second names, sometimes in a foreign language - de Sommerhjowm, Goldenwolf - while all others adopt either prosaic placenames or more poetic names drawn from nature and geography - Sáðstrám, van Snámąðow. These names most often apply only to the bearer themselves; however, the fourth names of barons may also be used by their spouses, parents, siblings and children, and the fourth names of counts may also be used by their lineal heirs indefinitely (though in practice rarely are).



For ordinary people, the usual casual style is secondname, with secondname-thirdname being more formal. Firstname-secondname may also be found when there are multiple people of the same name, or as a more formal name used by parents. Some people are best known by the first name rather than their second - traditionally, this is particularly the case with the more religious, although that is not always the case. This is less common now than once it was.

Those with a fourth name may use it in place of their third name, in place of their first or second name, or (formally) as a fourth name preceded by their third name.

Thus, former Speaker, Fjona Siward Patreksson was known as:
- Siward - in most conversations
- Fjona Siward - in cases where disambiguation from another Siward was necessary, or from stern parents
- Siward Patreksson, or less formally simply Siward Patrek - where more politeness is desired
- Fjona Siward Patreksson - in phone books, or by very angry schoolteachers
- Siward Patreksson Swanstrám - after election to the upper house: in very formal contexts, in history books
- Patreksson Swanstrám - in slightly less formal contexts
- Siward Swanstrám - more casually
- Swanstrám - in polite conversation, from people who are not old friends (who would still use Siward).
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by spanick »

The Sortsbergish name is composed of a given name and surname.

Most given names are those of Christian, especially Gothic saints, such as Vereks and Vofeo for men and Maža and Stefanja for women. Names borrowed from Serbian are common: Vladzimer, Radmila. After the union of the Gothic-Greek Church with Rome, western saint names became more common. They are especially popular in modern times: Klara, Maria (cognate to Maža), Domenikos, Klemens, etc.

The surname was traditionally patronymic formed by using the genitive forms of the father's given name. This process is no longer productive and patronymic names are now simply inherited, regardless of the father's given name. Occupational surnames are also quite common, having developed in a time when the patronymic names were so repetitive that there was often confusion determining about whom one was referring. For instance, the most common male name recorded in parish baptismal records from 1600-1750 was Vereks Verekas. Common occupational surnames include: Smids, Herdz, Švestenik, and Feskaž.

Nobles have a third, inherited name which comes after their surname. These names are very much like the nobiliary particles of German. These are constructed by using either 'fram' or 'at' followed by their family's historical possessions. For example, the current president is Petros fram Nüborgs. While nobles do have normal surnames, they are not usually used, being replaced by the nobiliary name. The president's full name would be Petros Stefanos fram Nüborgs.
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by eldin raigmore »

spanick wrote: 02 Jan 2018 20:31 The Sortsbergish name is composed of a given name and surname.
Most given names are those of Christian, especially Gothic saints, such as Vereks and Vofeo for men and Maža and Stefanja for women. Names borrowed from Serbian
....
using either 'fram' or 'at' followed by their family's historical possessions. For example, the current president is Petros fram Nüborgs. While nobles do have normal surnames, they are not usually used, being replaced by the nobiliary name. The president's full name would be Petros Stefanos fram Nüborgs.
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by Hyolobrika »

One idea:
Two names:
  1. A given family name
  2. Optional: if needed to disambiguate, one can use to refer to someone a word tied to that person i.e. for relationship, circumstances of recurrent meeting, place of first meeting, unique or semiunique properties etc. People can keep track.
    For example: if I meet someone called Thomas at a conlanging meetup and know another, I can refer to the first when needed as Tom conlanger and the second as maybe "old-friend Tom".
    Within a family kinship terms can be used.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by eldin raigmore »

Hyolobrika wrote: 05 Feb 2018 01:00 Optional: if needed to disambiguate, one can use to refer to someone a word tied to that person i.e. for relationship, circumstances of recurrent meeting, place of first meeting, unique or semiunique properties etc. People can keep track.
For example: if I meet someone called Thomas at a conlanging meetup and know another, I can refer to the first when needed as Tom conlanger and the second as maybe "old-friend Tom".
Within a family kinship terms can be used.
That sounds very practical and natural.
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by Hyolobrika »

eldin raigmore wrote: 10 Feb 2018 03:27
Hyolobrika wrote: 05 Feb 2018 01:00 Optional: if needed to disambiguate, one can use to refer to someone a word tied to that person i.e. for relationship, circumstances of recurrent meeting, place of first meeting, unique or semiunique properties etc. People can keep track.
For example: if I meet someone called Thomas at a conlanging meetup and know another, I can refer to the first when needed as Tom conlanger and the second as maybe "old-friend Tom".
Within a family kinship terms can be used.
That sounds very practical and natural.
Depends on where you live I suppose. And I meant in a different way to how you might expect, as in you might call someone by it.
Also, family names and names of relatives count as this kind of name.
You're right it's too natural to include here. But if I delete it your reply will still be there so ...
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by eldin raigmore »

Hyolobrika wrote: 10 Feb 2018 09:38You're right it's too natural to include here.
"Too natural"?
How can it be "too natural"? Isn't "natural" a virtue (usually)?
Unless you were deliberately going for something quite "unnatural". (And yet, perhaps, still practical.)
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by Foolster41 »

In Saltha, a name is given shortly after birth, when they are sure the baby will survive (probibly a few weeks), chosen by the parents. He takes the middle name of his mother, and's family, and his last name his father's family.

When the boy comes of age at 10, and underges the ceremony of the Uagi, he may choose, if he wishes a new first name to go by, as his adult name, retaining his middle and last names.
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by eldin raigmore »

elemtilas wrote: 26 Nov 2017 03:23
eldin raigmore wrote: 26 Nov 2017 02:57 (There are also "nicknames", a bit more formal than *our* "nicknames", but a bit more free-form then *their* "formal names".)

Do people acquire new names from going through adulthood/marriage rituals? Yes, and/or other events; some by their own choice. These are all grouped under the term "nicknames"; which may not carry exactly the same connotation that "nickname" does in our culture.
So, I'm interested in these less formal names. What is implied by "may not carry the same connotation"? I guess a question that seeks answer to what kind of nickname *here* are you talking about? What cultural milieu? Why a/o why not might these compare crossworldwise? In other words, what dó Adpihians and Reptiganders mean by "nickname"?
I have been reading “The Namesake ” by some famous young Bengali authoress. Apparently Bengali children are given a “pet name“ while still pretty young. This name may be lighthearted or meaningless. This is the name that the child is called en famille and by any intimate acquaintance in private for their entire life. A child is not given a “good name“ until they have to register for school. This name is chosen very seriously by consulting the child’s parents’ elders. It is the name they are called in public; it is the name that is written on all documents; and so on. An example given by the authoress, is that If the child’s grandmother in Kolkata writes a letter to the Child in Boston, the envelope will carry the child’s “good name” , while the body of the letter itself will call the child by the child’s “pet name”.


What I called the “Nickname” given (on Adpihi) to a baby boy by his father’s mother or to a baby girl by her mother‘s father, corresponds to the Bengali “pet name“. On the other hand, the two-part formal individual name inherited from the child’s (sometimes collateral) ancestors, which I called the “formal individual name”, corresponds to the Bengali “good name”.
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 20 Oct 2023 00:36, edited 1 time in total.
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