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PostPosted: Sat 09 Sep 2017, 18:15 
mayan
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How about beginning from the start, defining the term “romlang”?
Then you'd go into the topics of geographical extent and (maybe) realism.
After that, you could start with the phonology (vowels first, consonant next).
Then you'd deal with the morphology, pointing to the changes from Latin to Romance (nouns, adjectives, verbs – in that order).

How's that?

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PostPosted: Sun 10 Sep 2017, 21:46 
MVP
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Joined: Mon 19 Sep 2011, 18:37
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Egerius wrote:
How about beginning from the start, defining the term “romlang”?
Then you'd go into the topics of geographical extent and (maybe) realism.
After that, you could start with the phonology (vowels first, consonant next).
Then you'd deal with the morphology, pointing to the changes from Latin to Romance (nouns, adjectives, verbs – in that order).

How's that?


Perhaps the best place would be for qwed to establish his credentials in the minds of his readers by directing them to his own well-developed romlangs. Then he could use those romlangs as illustrations for the other sections.

Then I guess a quick introduction to classical and vulgar Latin, and the differences between them (with links to more in-depth grammars). Then a section on geography/history, examining a) each place the Romans dwelt, and b) places they didn't actually dwell in, or didn't dwell in for long, and the prospects for Roman occupation there in an alternate history. For each place they actually dwelt, qwed could give a brief introduction to what is known of the vulgar latin of that area - it would be great if he could pull together all the sources on north african romance, for instance.

It may also be a good idea to look at different design ideologies, with illustrations from real conlangs. What is a bogolang romlang, and what isn't?


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Sep 2017, 05:32 
greek
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Joined: Mon 21 Sep 2015, 00:28
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Qwed was asking for a list of areas where a person who was curious about developing a romlang could choose from, so I give my various ideas to be expanded upon:

Various African Romance languages (perhaps a modern Romance Carthaginian?)
Maybe the Roman Empire colonized the Azores?
British Latin (c.f. Brithenig, could also become a mix of Latin and Old Norse?)
Dacian Romance, perhaps related to Romanian but spoken in Eastern Hungary.
Dutch Latin, or Romance spoken in what would be southern Netherlands.
Maltese Romance (If Vulgar Latin survived there instead of being replaced by Arabic)
Moselle Romance
Pannonian Romance

There are many other areas where an isolated Romance language could have survived, for example in the Alps or Pyrenees.

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Sep 2017, 05:43 
mongolian
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Ælfwine wrote:
Qwed was asking for a list of areas where a person who was curious about developing a romlang could choose from, so I give my various ideas to be expanded upon:

Various African Romance languages (perhaps a modern Romance Carthaginian?)
Maybe the Roman Empire colonized the Azores?
British Latin (c.f. Brithenig, could also become a mix of Latin and Old Norse?)
Dacian Romance, perhaps related to Romanian but spoken in Eastern Hungary.
Dutch Latin, or Romance spoken in what would be southern Netherlands.
Maltese Romance (If Vulgar Latin survived there instead of being replaced by Arabic)
Moselle Romance
Pannonian Romance

There are many other areas where an isolated Romance language could have survived, for example in the Alps or Pyrenees.

I don't remember this having come up. There's a lot of potential locations for a Romlang to develop; the roman empire spanned a good one and half million square miles.

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Sep 2017, 23:38 
rupestrian
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Going further into Germany you could get varieties extending the Romance dialect continua through Germany connecting Rhaeto-Romance, Arpitan and Walloon. I briefly sketched a romlang along these lines but it was pretty much just applying the development of Upper and High German from West Germanic (I wanted to get the High Germanic consonant shift in there).

British Romance has plenty of interesting options and, given the different influences there'd be in different areas (differing amounts of Brythonic/Old Welsh, Old English, Old Norse, and Old Irish), I think they've probably been a bit underexplored because so far people seem to have focused on influences of just one of those other languages per romlang and a romlang from Galloway with significant Old Irish and Old Norse influence could be pretty interesting.

The Balkans also have some options beyond "basically Romanian". Trying to get some varieties more intermediate between Romanian and the rest of the Romance varieties à la Istriot could be interesting. You could also expand on/around Megleno-Romanian or look into some more Albania.

That's just dealing with places that were actually under Roman rule; various other states that developed up to the late Middle ages (after which you start getting into the colonial period and are more likely to get something that would more likely be called a dialect in the alt history as with American Spanish) could be used as a starting point for a romlang, such as: an Old French derived language from the crusader states of the 11th century could do some interesting Arabic-influenced things (like an inverse Maltese) and another Old French derived language from the 13th century Latin Empire (with strong Greek and Turkish influences), or (Middle?) Venetian or (Middle?) Genoese derived languages for communities in their various colonies in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Black Sea (potentially giving you some combo of Arabic, Turkic, Slavic, Armenian, and/or Caucasian influences).

That's not even getting into too much alt history where one of the most plausible options for a new romlang would be for catholic countries to develop a romance language from above (with a substantial indigenous substratum) when converted. Germany, Scandinavia, the Baltic states, Poland, Czechia, and Hungary would be the main areas. Other than that, assuming Roman culture became dominant in the Eastern Roman Empire would also give you lots of options by opening up the entire Eastern Mediterranean to the Romance dialect continua.

Basically, most of Europe's available to you depending on the amount of alt history you want to do

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PostPosted: Thu 14 Sep 2017, 12:24 
MVP
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Joined: Mon 19 Sep 2011, 18:37
Posts: 1194
Let's build a classification of romlang homelands:

A: existing romance territories.
these languages are likely to be similar to existing varieties

B: places under long-term Latin-Roman occupation without a romance language today
- Britannia (England and Wales)
probably will have a lot in common with French, but also has the opportunity of considerable isolation
- Africa and Eastern Mauretania (so, Libya, Tunisia, parts of Algeria)
a little is known about this 'African Romance', which was apparently closest to Sardinian. Notable mulitlingualism in Berber and Punic. The longest-lived lost Romlang - survived into the 2nd millennium.
- Mauretania Tingitana (modern northern Morocco)
later governed with Spain rather than with Africa; I suspect this would be an Iberian-esque language
- Germania (Superior and Inferior), Belgica and Rhaetia
Flanders, southern Netherlands, Luxemburg and Germany west of the Rhine, plus much of Swabia, Bavaria and Switzerland were all long-term Roman territories. The languages would be the missing links between French and Rhaeto-Romance
- Noricum and Pannonia (modern Austria, and parts of Hungary and Croatia)
Unknown characteristics. Could be Western (Gallo-Rhaetic) or Eastern. Germanic and (early) Celtic influences possible.
- Dalmatia, Dacia, Moesia and Macedonia
the real life Romanian and Italo-Dalmatian languages - either family could be expanded. Apparently, Latin loans into Greek and Albanian show a third Romance branch in the area as well, although this may just have been a cultured second-language form among Greek speakers.
- Tyras and Olbia
founded by Greeks, but rebuilt by Latins. Not impossible to imagine a non-Romanian eastern Romance language here, perhaps with Greek, Iranian or Caucasian influences

C: places with long-term Roman occupation, where Greek was a relatively late or partial adoption and might relatively easily be replaced by Latin
- Judaea, Arabia Petraea (Jordan), southern Syria
- Taurica (the Crimea, and neighbouring parts of Russia)
solidly Greek, but highly multilingual (aristocratic personal names were in Latin, for instance, though surnames were Greek), with a relatively small population. Nero planned a massive Roman invasion of the Ukraine, which might have put enough soldiers in the region to Latinise it
- Albania
the fact that Albanian has survived shows that Greek wasn't too dominant, so Latin might have taken over.

D: places completely Greek, but a major alt-history change might make them Latin:
- Greece
- Anatolia

E: places the Romans occupied or dominated temporarily - an alt-history could lengthen the occupation
- Caledonia
- Northern Netherlands
- Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan
- Iraq, western and central Iran
- southern Libya
- Sudan
- Germany west of the Elbe

F: places the Romans invaded but were forced to retreat from immediately
- western Saudi
- Yemen (the expedition conquered western Saudi and Aden, but overextended, was defeated in Yemen, and was forced to retreat)
- southern Slovakia (for a couple of years; however, the area, 'Marcomannia' continued to Romanise culturally in the following years)
- Ireland

G: places the Romans at least wanted to invade, and considered invading:
- eastern Iran
- the Russian coast of the Black Sea
- Eritrea and Ethiopia

H: places the Romans were present, and where they had great cultural influence:
- Mogador (southern Morocco)
- probably Denmark

I: places the Romans sent expeditionary forces but didn't consider worth invading:
- Senegal
- Mali
- the Central African Republic
- possibly Uganda

J: places they may have gotten to eventually:
- the Canaries (they knew about them, and their vassal explored them but did not bother settling; given more time, they may have done)
- Equitorial Africa

J: secondary invasion routes
- Roman colonisation of the Ukraine or eastern Hungary could have led to Latin-speakers among the tribes invading Europe
- Roman colonisation of Jutland could have led to Latin-speakers invading the Baltic (and re-invading Britain)
- Roman colonisation of Yemen could have led to colonisation of eastern Africa (which IRL was done by the Omanis)
- Roman control of Persia could have led to invasions of central asia and/or India
- Roman control of Caledonia could have led to the discovery of Iceland, or even eventually North America

H: places they would have had to try really hard to ever get to
- everywhere else

I: places that don't exist
- various imaginary islands


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PostPosted: Thu 14 Sep 2017, 20:01 
mongolian
mongolian

Joined: Thu 20 Nov 2014, 02:27
Posts: 4157
Just gonna remind people that this really is unnecessary discussion; I never asked for this information and I've already sectioned out a portion of my guide to talk about placements of romlangs

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PostPosted: Thu 14 Sep 2017, 22:19 
MVP
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Joined: Mon 19 Sep 2011, 18:37
Posts: 1194
qwed117 wrote:
Just gonna remind people that this really is unnecessary discussion; I never asked for this information and I've already sectioned out a portion of my guide to talk about placements of romlangs


Sorry, I forgot that you were the only person who might be browsing the board!

Seriously, though, we all know that you're the world's greatest romlanger and could never need any advice or opinions... but some people might not have your depth of knowledge on the subject, and might appreciate fellow amateurs like esoanem or myself sharing our thoughts. Have mercy on the poor ordinary-folk for whom not everything is as fully mastered as for yourself!


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