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PostPosted: Mon 31 Oct 2011, 22:50 
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Systemzwang wrote:
xingoxa wrote:


I was thinking mostly about those theologians who according to you said that reality/truth were irrelevant. Those who I can think of who might be saying something like that would be (post)modern theologians of various kinds; who generally couldn't be labelled "conservative".


I think both conservatives and liberals can ignore reality - and to some extent it even makes sense to do so. Reality is difficult, models are easy.

The aim of religion - at least according to the more traditional branches of Christianity and other religions - is to grasp reality, or at least some aspects of reality. Some (post)modernist theologians may deny this.

Whether or not those religious people succeed in grasping the truth is another question. One can criticise both the methods used by religious people, or the conclusions reached. One must distinguish between the aim of some activity, and whether the activity succeeds on that aim.
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However; much of what you are writing seems like an array of accusations against the clergy in Finland. I might like do discuss such things; but I don't think this is the right forum for it.

You are misinterpreting what I am saying - this isn't a criticism, this is attestation of a pattern of behaviours; most clergymen in the lutheran church are fairly reasonable. These are a few members of a conservative clique - one that is willing to preserve their traditions because those traditions have always been part of true Christianity. Even when you can show that the tradition was invented in the 18th century. Or 19th. Or even early 20th. But when confronted with evidence that they are wrong, these can actually say that reality isn't important. Or that this ideal reality which has no semblance of actual reality is what's important.


If you characterise some group of people in an unfavourable way, it is an accusation. It may well turn out to be a true accusation. But I suggest this would be a discussion better suited for another forum.

(Btw IME when someone says something like "I'm not seeking to criticise or discuss anything, I'm just reporting the obvious facts", there is a sure flame war warning.)

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PostPosted: Mon 31 Oct 2011, 23:02 
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Micamo wrote:
Well, I define two types of "ritual" (Original definitions again, yay!). First is any action or sequence of actions intended to bring about a specific result, with exception of recursive results (that is, an action that is, at some level, done for its own sake). This is what I call Ritual proper. Importantly, under this definition taking a child who is sick to the doctor is just as much of a "ritual" as sacrificing a lamb and sitting around in a prayer circle. Second are actions or sequences of actions that aren't done with any real purpose in mind but are performed in order to avoid social ostracism. Most noticeably, etiquette rules fit here nicely. I call these "Traditions."

Avoided actions or activities, taboos, are included accordingly.

I split the definition because they have quite different dynamics in a society. My theory is that all such "traditions" emerge from ritual where the original justification has been forgotten or discredited, and the difference between ritual and tradition is a continuum rather than a sharp dichotomy.


You could borrow the terminology used in behavioral psychology.

Positive ritual - The presence of the action etc.
Negative ritual - The distinct absence of an action etc.

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PostPosted: Tue 01 Nov 2011, 22:07 
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Couldn't be bothered to read all the other posts, but thank you Micamo - I have to admit I never noticed how Religion and Science are the same thing.


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PostPosted: Thu 03 Nov 2011, 20:20 
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The first issue to tackle is quite a thorny one: How do we define religion itself? Here I use a very specialized definition of religion you'll be unlikely to find elsewhere. It is as follows: A "religion" is, simply, a set of beliefs about how the world works. Yes, this means Maxwell's Equations are a "religious belief." This is likely to make many fellow atheists reading this begin screaming and punching through their monitors, but hear me out here.


I think you are very confused about words meaning then.

Religion requires rituals and such, maxwells equations has nothing that fits with anything religious

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All beliefs, "religious" or otherwise, come about as the result of an honest (if poorly performed) attempt at discovering truth.


*clears throat* May I point to various people in USA who hold religious beliefs but are demonstrably DISHONEST in it? they demonstrate that they do not care about the truth but how they WANT it to be and will lie, cheat, steal and much more to make sure they get how they want it, knowingly

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PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov 2011, 11:07 
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zelos wrote:
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All beliefs, "religious" or otherwise, come about as the result of an honest (if poorly performed) attempt at discovering truth.


*clears throat* May I point to various people in USA who hold religious beliefs but are demonstrably DISHONEST in it? they demonstrate that they do not care about the truth but how they WANT it to be and will lie, cheat, steal and much more to make sure they get how they want it, knowingly

I would imagine that what was meant was "in the first place"; you could almost argue that many religious beliefs are like (or were at the time of their positing) scientific theories - meta-narratives of the world and how it works based on the evidence they had available. What distinguishes it though is that scientific thought changes and adapts to the changing empirical landscape, whereas religion is, well, religious in its beliefs...

People can still be religious about science. Just think of all the militant atheists, or people who dogmatically hold one scientific theory as truth despite accumulating evidence against it (or them)...


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PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov 2011, 15:40 
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teh_Foxx0rz wrote:
People can still be religious about science. Just think of all the militant atheists, or people who dogmatically hold one scientific theory as truth despite accumulating evidence against it (or them)...

A sure fire way to annoy a militant atheist is to insist he is religious... It's also a sure fire way to give him more ammunition to fire back at what he sees as his opponents: they tend to be 'militant' for a reason.

The difference is that in scientific communities, only the leading theory is the accepted theory. Holding onto an unconventional idea within these communities tends to get you branded as a 'pet-theorist' or a quack, at least until it is exonerated in the form of more compelling evidence. In religion, this is different; get enough people to decide they like your interpretation better and suddenly you have equal rights with any other faith (look at the guy who was allowed to wear a colander on his head in his driving licence photo due to being part of the satirical religion, Pastafarianism).

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PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov 2011, 16:29 
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Lodhas wrote:
The difference is that in scientific communities, only the leading theory is the accepted theory. Holding onto an unconventional idea within these communities tends to get you branded as a 'pet-theorist' or a quack, at least until it is exonerated in the form of more compelling evidence.


Not really. In science ideas are only really homogenized within a single institution: Holders of minority ideas (except in the extreme cases) don't get stamped out, they just establish their own institutions. What you describe only happens with stuff so fringe it doesn't have enough adherents to form new institutions.

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PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov 2011, 16:48 
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Micamo wrote:
Not really. In science ideas are only really homogenized within a single institution: Holders of minority ideas (except in the extreme cases) don't get stamped out, they just establish their own institutions. What you describe only happens with stuff so fringe it doesn't have enough adherents to form new institutions.

They still won't be considered the accepted theory and supporters will still often be described as pet-theorists. String Theory draws a lot of flak despite being supported by the likes of Stephen Hawking, for example. As it stands, the quantum and relativity theories it's intended to supplant are still in place as the accepted models.

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PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov 2011, 17:00 
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Lodhas wrote:
They still won't be considered the accepted theory and supporters will still often be described as pet-theorists. String Theory draws a lot of flak despite being supported by the likes of Stephen Hawking, for example. As it stands, the quantum and relativity theories it's intended to supplant are still in place as the accepted models.

Each different group gives other competing groups flack, it's just human nature. Pay no attention to it until it gets out of hand [:P]

It is out of hand however between religion and science I'd say, and yes they are both just equivalent schools of thought on how the world works.
However, unlike religion, science tends to rapidly adapt its ideas and listen to the world we try so hard to understand.

That is the whole reason why people came up with religious thoughts in the first place anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat 05 Nov 2011, 11:19 
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teh_Foxx0rz wrote:
Each different group gives other competing groups flack, it's just human nature. Pay no attention to it until it gets out of hand [:P]

It is out of hand however between religion and science I'd say, and yes they are both just equivalent schools of thought on how the world works.
However, unlike religion, science tends to rapidly adapt its ideas and listen to the world we try so hard to understand.

That is the whole reason why people came up with religious thoughts in the first place anyway.

Agreed, hence not wishing to call one by the other's name. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed 29 Feb 2012, 12:59 
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-Giving a sense of purpose; the religion is typically the highest form of meaning in life for the believer.
-Some moral code, that we need to obey on order to please the deities, and/or achieve salvation.

Salvation/sense of purpose. Definitions of Religion? They are indeed themselves definitions of life, and not of religion. What religion has done is try to encapsulate the very essence of what life is from Man's perspective, why we are here, how come we are here, and put it into a meaningful context that all can understand and grasp with ease, even if it borders on fantasy/insanity. Hence the very flaw in religion itself!

Science is not without it's flaws either. Trying to address the same damn questions that ultimately are to do with life by disregarding totally why we are here and trying to see everything objectively, as though in isolation! Very much like throwing the baby out with the bathtub! Thus that reasoning is flawed, for nature often repeats herself in everything, so if the desire for wanting to know where you come from, then I am certain that the solar system desires itself to know where it came from, and so does the atom, by returning back to the primordial emptiness whence it originated!

And what is in that primordiality? When you attain certain levels of consciousness, you will see that you are also that primordiality, within, even if you think you are a separate human being, totally independent of your own environment. This is the flaw that both religion and science has - they have not acknowledged that nothing is everything and that everything is nothing, and that there is in fact a purpose for us for being here - to enjoy, to experience and treasure life for what it is in every manifestation!

In other words, Zendō/Dhyana/Samādhi/Kaivalya/Nirvana/Liberation/Salvation/Oneness are the real reasons behind the motivations of Science and Religion, for everyone.
Once people have experienced it, then there is no desire to expand further or attempt to further understand it, for that would lead to further disillusionment and distraction away from that state of primordiality/potentiality that is found within the state of Liberation.


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PostPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2012, 23:51 
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People will cut one another's throats over a disagreement about what happens to someone after their throat gets cut.
Edit: I'm sorry I posted that.

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PostPosted: Sat 03 Mar 2012, 00:31 
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Going by this thread, The Paz's Zjmc religion isn't actually a religion but a philosophy...

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PostPosted: Sat 03 Mar 2012, 02:04 
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So, some surprising facts about religions that actually exist, facts that some people that debate religion in the public sphere repeatedly fail to realize, so in a way this is a list of attested traits in real-world religions:
This is badly organized, and a fair share of it is kind of aimed at highlighting differences between Christianity and one of its closest relatives. I have very little about Dharmic religions in this - and the only one is really the love-child between Abrahamism and Dharmism anyway, so ...

there are religions that conceal some of the religion's beliefs from a large segment of their members. (e.g. the Druze religion)

there are religions which one cannot join at all. (druze, mandaism, some varieties of zoroastrism - also, one "subethnic group" in Judaism doesn't perform conversions, but recognize converts through other subethnicities of Judaism as valid Jews.)

there are religions who restrict which outsiders can join: Samaritanism only permits Jews to convert, Christian Identity only permits whites to join (and some varieties teach that non-whites lack a soul, that Jews may be the physical offspring of Satan, etc), Nation of Islam does not accept whites.

there are religions in which the concept of joining isn't even really relevant, as member lists or ideas along the lines of a member aren't even a thing. (some shamanic religions.)

there are religions that will try to dissuade potential converts from joining. (e.g. Judaism).

there are religions that do not think non-members will go to hell. In fact, the majority of religions probably don't even have the classical Christian idea of a hell.

there are religions in which belief isn't really an important thing, but rather actions or even community (some consider ritual action important, some rather consider some social things more important, although often in religions that value ritual, the ritual is a social thing; exceptions do exist, of course. But an example of social ritual: In Judaism, it's considered important to pray in a group, because it helps build a Jewish community. Likewise, various strictures and leniences wrt the kosher rules, some potential leniencies on shabbat rules, etc, serve to cement a community, and possibly even makes maintaining a community a by-product for whosoever tries to adhere to those rules.) Of course, there's also non-social rituals: in a way, the wearing of tefillin in Judaism can be seen as a non-social thing as it does not contribute to the community in any obvious manner (otoh, tefillin cost a lot and can only be written by educated scribes - so in a way it helps maintain a scribal subculture that keeps writing other things that help maintain the jewish culture ...)

in some religions, believing doesn't make you a member: you don't become a Jew, a Zoroastrian, a Yazidi, a Mandaean, a Druze or a Samaritan just by believing in those religions. In a way, it's a bit like religious orders in Christianity: you don't become a Jesuit just by believing in Catholicism. In Judaism at least, non-Jewish believers have a designation, and were widely counted as non-Jewish adherents in late antiquity (until Christianity became state religion in Rome) - a less stringent religious law applied to non-Jews, and a non-Jewish believer that wanted (or wants) to take on the full yoke of the Torah can do so - much like a Catholic can decide to take on the yoke of some religious order (such as becoming a monk or a cleric - which unlike layman Catholicism require abstention from marriage, and various other strictures).

In some religions, the clergy have a sort of special position vis-a-vis God, e.g. the Catholic and Orthodox cleric (and also in high church protestantism) can perform sacraments a non-cleric cannot - so in a way, in these faiths, it's held that the cleric is granted some powers (but also of course, responsibilities) by God. In other faiths, the clerics can have quite different roles.
Many Christian countries have legislations that assume the cleric is needed when performing a wedding - the marriage is not valid unless the clergyman has declared it so. This is not the case in Judaism, for instance, where the wedding is a contract between the two, and is considered valid by Jewish law as long as the contract is signed by both and the signing is witnessed by valid witnesses.
So Christianity-influenced secular law has kind of forced the rabbis in some countries to be present and say words to an effect that Jewish law does not call for.

What is a rabbi then if he isn't a priest-like conduit of sacraments? He is supposed to be a scholar of Jewish law and customs - a go to guy for questions regarding Jewish things. Any Jewish male over the age of 13 (in orthodoxy - in conservative judaism and reform judaism women are also included) can lead the congregation in any ritual (in orthodox judaism there are some rituals that should be led by women though, such as lighting the shabbat candle and such), as long as he knows the ritual. Rabbis are of course expected to know the rituals, so they end up performing them if no one else knows the drill. In a way a rabbi is a lawyer of Jewish law as well, and there are different degrees - whether one can lead a court that can judge cases of certain degrees of seriousness.

Sunni islamic clergymen seem to occupy a rather similar position visavis their congregations, whereas some varieties of shi'ism seem to be more similar to Christianity as far as this goes. (But I can not guarantee this to be the case.)
Of course, in some religions this position comes with added responsibility. (E.g. the rabbi is expected to adhere more closely to halakha than his congregants.)

Then again, in Judaism too there's been a development towards the congregation leader as a middle-man between God and creation - in Chassidism, the rebbe/tzaddiq is in practice seen as an intermediate.

the protestant focus on scripture is unusual in religions, even among Abrahamic religions! E.g. in Judaism, Catholicism, Islam, Orthodoxy, Zoroastrism, etc, a lot of the idea of what the religion even is comes from extra-scriptural traditions. Of course, even the Bible as such is defined by an extra-scriptural tradition, how to read and understand it properly often is a sort of by-tradition, and any cursory look at any protestant group will find dozens of things they consider important for a proper Christian life that nowhere can be found in scripture. (so, this is also an important thing about religions: the members' view of how the religion works and where it derives from and why one does so or so and what one should do and why may very well diverge quite far from the history of these behaviours.) More concrete example: there are people here that have been shunned by their religious friends for moving together before getting married. In earlier times in this area, only nobility got married the way one currently does - MOVING TOGETHER was recognized as a valid marriage. Priests even *refused to perform weddings for the yeomanry and peasantry*, but after some time, started to accept performing weddings somewhere else but DEFS NOT in the church, and after a century or so even peasantry was accepted to marry in the church. Nowadays if you don't go through that hoop, you're not considered married. Of course, this is nowhere mandated in the Bible, yet these sola scriptura people think it is. Funny that!

(NOTE for moderators: this isn't a religious argument, it's an *attestation of a religious behaviour* and an actual justification of why this behaviour shows that they are inconsistent - I do not judge their behaviour, I only note that it is inconsistent. Everyone, of course, is inconsistent to some extent and they could probably point out inconsistencies in my behaviour if they scrutinized me carefully enough.)

Scripture has quite a different role in, say, Sikhism, where it's read as a kind of devotion - and not as a study to figure out doctrines. In Judaism, exegesis of a kind similar - but rather trickier at times - to that in Christian circles does exist, and probably is the source for the Christian way of reading scripture. Only, in Judaism the exegete goes about it quite differently, and has somewhat different sources for the exegesis. (E.g. talmud, the targums (translations to aramaic that paraphrase and elucidate the text) and midrashes (inspired by the targums, a kind of targum without translation - elucidation and insertion of tangents to the text, etc), mystical writings, gaonic writings, unwritten tradition, ..., but c.f. Christian use of patristic writings, medieval and newer theologians (Aquinas, Duns Scotus, /Luther, /Calvin, /Zwingli, /Hus, ...), early translations (vulgate, peshitta, church slavic, LXX...), mystics (Luther was inspired by Meister Eckhart, for instance), and unwritten traditions.) Often, when the Jewish exegete reads sources, he looks for a halakha - a ruling on a practical matter. OTOH, less legalist exegesis also exists, but that often consists of trying to understand how many layers of metaphor some mystic or talmudic sage or gaon has hidden a nugget of wisdom behind in order to make people have to seek it out. In a way, the effort of coaxing things out of the text is a kind of highly abstract ritual, and a way of keeping a discussion with earlier Jewish theologians going. It's a participation in a millennia-spanning debate.

In Judaism, studying such things is considered one form of prayer!


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PostPosted: Sat 03 Mar 2012, 02:05 
roman
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eldin raigmore wrote:
People will cut one another's throats over a disagreement about what happens to someone after their throat gets cut.


Ultimately, this is only in a very few religions where doctrine has become the core marker of salvation. In most religions, this is not the case.

In fact, in most religions, the main reason why someone'd be punished by death is if they do things that are roughly equivalent to denying the legal authority of a secular power and flaunting this by violations of the code of conduct. Beliefs per se have seldom entered into it.


Last edited by Systemzwang on Sat 03 Mar 2012, 02:20, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 03 Mar 2012, 02:17 
roman
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Chagen wrote:
Going by this thread, The Paz's Zjmc religion isn't actually a religion but a philosophy...


Lots of what's been called philosophies shares a lot of features with religions, and vice versa. But a lot of philosophy - philosophy of science, philosophy of language, etc, doesn't really have any natural religious correspondences, but do have natural applications in religious contexts.

Alas, there's a little problem with the word "religion". See, the word has long been a word used in Europe, to describe European ideas. Christianity has had quite an undeniable impact there. Not only is Christianity a religion, Christianity fed back into the word "religion" in a way that affected what we expect to find when we look at a religion - the word religion has been semantically tainted into meaning something along the lines of "what you get when you replace a church with a _________, a cross with a ________, the Bible with _______, God with someone named ________, the devil with __________, the angels with _________, the pope with ________, bishops with __________, prayer with {meditation, prayer, singing}, ...

When Europe conquered the world, they realized there were other religions (the only two religions it had really interacted with on any terms other than forcing conversion or assimilation were Islam and Judaism - Islam being p. much a carbon copy and Judaism being something they didn't quite understand but thought of as Christianity sans Jesus and therefore inferior), and tried see how these religions answered the same questions, an filled the same functions as Christianity. Alas, this is a dumb approach - oftentimes, it's not just the answers that are different but the questions, and the functions are nowhere similar, or only when viewed through very different lenses.

This has also affected how legislation regarding religion in European colonies has worked, how states have interacted with their religious groups etc, which has affected how the religions have been forced to see themselves, which has made p. much all religions in the world approach the Christian concept of what a religion is in the first place.

This is a realization that only really dawned on the scholarly community in the last 50 years or so.


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PostPosted: Sat 03 Mar 2012, 02:22 
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xingoxa wrote:
If you characterise some group of people in an unfavourable way, it is an accusation. It may well turn out to be a true accusation. But I suggest this would be a discussion better suited for another forum.

(Btw IME when someone says something like "I'm not seeking to criticise or discuss anything, I'm just reporting the obvious facts", there is a sure flame war warning.)

This is a real stupid idiotic objection!

Someone made a claim. I show that this claim contradicts reality. And I get shit for criticizing people? Isn't it the guy that made the unwarranted claim that has counterexamples running around in the real world that should get a scalding for inviting the correction in the first place? Should we be allowed to make wrong claims that can't be corrected just because showing them wrong is offensive? That's fucking idiotic.


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PostPosted: Sat 03 Mar 2012, 02:27 
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You know, I abandoned this topic for a reason...

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PostPosted: Sat 03 Mar 2012, 02:54 
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Micamo wrote:
You know, I abandoned this topic for a reason...

you should've stuck to having abandoned it.


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PostPosted: Sat 03 Mar 2012, 02:57 
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This thread has been trotting pretty cleanly past the House Rule #7 boundary for a while, but I'm hesitant to call it off because there's some really great info for conworlding purposes here ( [+1] Systemzwang).

Please keep it cool and where possible within the "information for the purposes of conworlding" box, and we'll see how long this experiment can continue [:)]

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