New CBB

Discuss constructed languages, cultures, worlds, related sciences and much more!
It is currently Wed 22 May 2013, 17:06

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: I am scrapping Kankonian
PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012, 04:35 
roman
roman

Joined: Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:36
Posts: 670
Location: California über alles
After more than 30,000 words, over 15 years, and over 75 pages of grammar, I am scrapping Kankonian. It was fun, but all gooe things must come to an end.

I just couldn't get the language to sound I wanted. I had tinkered with the phonology many times, but I don't ike the way it sounds. The pharyngeal /ħ/ in some of Kankonian's borrowed words is ugly, and the /θ/ in such words as "betzith" (love) is just n00bish.

As a matter of fact, a lot of Kankonian's fricatives -- /ħ/, /x/, /ɣ/ -- are just ugly. They grate on my ears. Kankonian didn't sound a thing like Tolkien's Elvish languages, that's more sure. And Kankonian had a total of eleven fricatives: /f/, /v/, /θ/, /s/, /z/, /ʃ/, /ʒ/, /x/, /ɣ/, /ħ/ and /h/. That's too many fricatives for a naturalistic language!

Speaking of naturalism, the phonology of Kankonian was extremely unnaturalistic. I mean, it had a voiceless linguolabial trill! No REAL language, at least no real language spoen by humans, would ever have a phoneme that sounds like someone breaking wind. And the vowels were ugly asymmetrical: /ø/ and /ɯ/ but not /y/ or /ɤ/! It resembled the mouths of those grannies who have like five teeth, in odd places.

And the grammar was unnaturalistic as well. It was just weird. I mean, consider the following sentence:

Yakhen ar tzemau falish, yau wir ien an hen ad morgen id shalut.
if+PAST you sell marijuana then we would have money for buy done_to sugar
If you had sold the marijuana, we would have money to buy sugar.

Tense suffixes on a CONJUNCTION?! What was I thinking? Too weird for me.

Not to mention the head-first versus head-last rules. "Shatrakhkatel" ("post-board") means bulletin board, but "shaikul-yuma" ("ring-eyebrow") means eyebrow ring. I know body parts are treated separately from alienable nouns in many languages, but when they disrupt the normal head syntax rules, that's just going too far. And the number words came AFTER the noun if the noun was a body part or kinship term, but BEFORE the noun in other cases. See my problem?

So, yeah, I'm scrapping it. Call me a scrapper. My new conlang is Komgithrian.

_________________
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 36,000 entries and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012, 04:40 
puremetal
puremetal
User avatar

Joined: Fri 13 Aug 2010, 18:57
Posts: 3053
Post this tomorrow...

_________________
♀♥♀
Dotjen
Kotanese


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012, 10:05 
ice
ice
User avatar

Joined: Mon 07 Nov 2011, 15:42
Posts: 1518
Don't you mean yesterday?

_________________
:swe: :nor: :dan: :eng: = [tick] | :isl: = [:D] | :esp: :por: :fao: = [:)] | :hun: = [:O] | :fin: = [:|] | :ell: :ara: = [:$] [:(]
‹› · Ḿḿ Ńń Ĺĺ Śś Źź Ąą Ǫǫ Ųų Æ̨æ̨ Ǽǽ Œ̨œ̨ Œ́œ́ Ɣɣ Y̋y̋ Įį Şş Z̧z̧ θ
Āā Ēē Īī Ōō Ūū ↗ Ṭṭ C̣c̣ Łł Ḍḍ Ṣṣ Ẓẓ Ṇṇ Ŋŋ e˞ o˞ ʷ ʲ ʰ ə


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012, 15:02 
roman
roman

Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 02:05
Posts: 521
Khemehekis wrote:
After more than 30,000 words, over 15 years, and over 75 pages of grammar, I am scrapping Kankonian. It was fun, but all gooe things must come to an end.

According to your own judgement, it was fun, but obviously wasn't good. Or at least not good enough.

Khemehekis wrote:
As a matter of fact, a lot of Kankonian's fricatives -- /ħ/, /x/, /ɣ/ -- are just ugly. They grate on my ears. Kankonian didn't sound a thing like Tolkien's Elvish languages, that's more sure. And Kankonian had a total of eleven fricatives: /f/, /v/, /θ/, /s/, /z/, /ʃ/, /ʒ/, /x/, /ɣ/, /ħ/ and /h/. That's too many fricatives for a naturalistic language!

Gothic: eleven fricatives if I counted correctly!
Welsh: eleven fricatives.

Maybe adding /ç/ while dropping another fricative? Then, /x/ and /ç/ could be allophones depending on the preceeding vowel.

Khemehekis wrote:
Speaking of naturalism, the phonology of Kankonian was extremely unnaturalistic. ... And the vowels were ugly asymmetrical: /ø/ and /ɯ/ but not /y/ or /ɤ/! It resembled the mouths of those grannies who have like five teeth, in odd places.

Well, maybe Kankonian could gain /y/ or /ɤ/ ''diachronically''?

Khemehekis wrote:
And the grammar was unnaturalistic as well. It was just weird. I mean, consider the following sentence:

Yakhen ar tzemau falish, yau wir ien an hen ad morgen id shalut.
if+PAST you sell marijuana then we would have money for buy done_to sugar
If you had sold the marijuana, we would have money to buy sugar.

Tense suffixes on a CONJUNCTION?! What was I thinking? Too weird for me.

say something in welsh: Check how to say ''yes'' and ''no'' in the past, the present and in the future.

Khemehekis wrote:
Not to mention the head-first versus head-last rules. ...

See lesson 5 in the northern version. The word for ''old'' comes before, other adjectives come after the noun. Also see French placement of adjectives.

Khemehekis wrote:
So, yeah, I'm scrapping it. Call me a scrapper. My new conlang is Komgithrian.

What does scrapping actually mean? Will you delete all the files or just declare it as ''scrapped''?

_________________
My neurochemistry has fucked my impulse control, now I'm diagnosed OOD = oppositional opinion disorder, one of the most deadly diseases in former soviet union, but can be cured in the free world.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012, 16:00 
metal
metal
User avatar

Joined: Mon 23 Aug 2010, 01:41
Posts: 1626
Location: PL
Quote:
Then, /x/ and /ç/ could be allophones depending on the preceeding vowel.

You meant [x] and [ç].

_________________
:pol: (native)
:eng: :fra: (learning)

--
Języki sztuczne i lingwistyka, po polsku.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012, 16:08 
roman
roman

Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 02:05
Posts: 521
Milyamd wrote:
Quote:
Then, /x/ and /ç/ could be allophones depending on the preceeding vowel.

You meant [x] and [ç].

Yes!

_________________
My neurochemistry has fucked my impulse control, now I'm diagnosed OOD = oppositional opinion disorder, one of the most deadly diseases in former soviet union, but can be cured in the free world.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012, 16:56 
puremetal
puremetal
User avatar

Joined: Fri 13 Aug 2010, 18:57
Posts: 3053
Skógvur wrote:
Don't you mean yesterday?

It was still the First in the land of Freedom when he posted it.


MERCA!

_________________
♀♥♀
Dotjen
Kotanese


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012, 18:28 
ice
ice
User avatar

Joined: Mon 07 Nov 2011, 15:42
Posts: 1518
Thakowsaizmu wrote:
Skógvur wrote:
Don't you mean yesterday?

It was still the First in the land of Freedom when he posted it.


MERCA!

I know that you guys celebrate Christmas one day too late, but you do pull the pranks on the first of April, don't you?

_________________
:swe: :nor: :dan: :eng: = [tick] | :isl: = [:D] | :esp: :por: :fao: = [:)] | :hun: = [:O] | :fin: = [:|] | :ell: :ara: = [:$] [:(]
‹› · Ḿḿ Ńń Ĺĺ Śś Źź Ąą Ǫǫ Ųų Æ̨æ̨ Ǽǽ Œ̨œ̨ Œ́œ́ Ɣɣ Y̋y̋ Įį Şş Z̧z̧ θ
Āā Ēē Īī Ōō Ūū ↗ Ṭṭ C̣c̣ Łł Ḍḍ Ṣṣ Ẓẓ Ṇṇ Ŋŋ e˞ o˞ ʷ ʲ ʰ ə


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012, 18:43 
cleardarkness
cleardarkness
User avatar

Joined: Sun 05 Sep 2010, 19:48
Posts: 4887
Skógvur wrote:
I know that you guys celebrate Christmas one day too late, but you do pull the pranks on the first of April, don't you?


April Fools "pranks" tend to be moved up earlier and earlier every year. Nobody falls for anything if you do it directly on april 1st.

_________________
♀♥Ø


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012, 23:13 
fire
fire

Joined: Sat 14 Aug 2010, 19:38
Posts: 2800
I don't know what to say. [:x]

_________________
I am not responsible for the accuracy of my sources; they're responsible for their own mistakes, if any, and also responsible for defending their own statements if you disagree with them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr 2012, 07:51 
roman
roman

Joined: Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:36
Posts: 670
Location: California über alles
Tanni wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:
As a matter of fact, a lot of Kankonian's fricatives -- /ħ/, /x/, /ɣ/ -- are just ugly. They grate on my ears. Kankonian didn't sound a thing like Tolkien's Elvish languages, that's more sure. And Kankonian had a total of eleven fricatives: /f/, /v/, /θ/, /s/, /z/, /ʃ/, /ʒ/, /x/, /ɣ/, /ħ/ and /h/. That's too many fricatives for a naturalistic language!

Gothic: eleven fricatives if I counted correctly!
Welsh: eleven fricatives.

Maybe adding /ç/ while dropping another fricative? Then, /x/ and /ç/ could be allophones depending on the preceeding vowel.


I'm not surprised if there all some languages that have 11 fricatives. However, what I was getting at is the admonition frequently conveyed on conlanging boards that making conlangs with many fricatives is a common newbie mistake because on Earth only the Indo-European languages have so many fricatives. Of course, the Afro-Asiatic languages do too.

Quote:
Khemehekis wrote:
Speaking of naturalism, the phonology of Kankonian was extremely unnaturalistic. ... And the vowels were ugly asymmetrical: /ø/ and /ɯ/ but not /y/ or /ɤ/! It resembled the mouths of those grannies who have like five teeth, in odd places.

Well, maybe Kankonian could gain /y/ or /ɤ/ ''diachronically''?


Diachronic changes are always possible. After all, /ɯ/ started out as /u/ with a retracted tongue root.

Quote:
Khemehekis wrote:
And the grammar was unnaturalistic as well. It was just weird. I mean, consider the following sentence:

Yakhen ar tzemau falish, yau wir ien an hen ad morgen id shalut.
if+PAST you sell marijuana then we would have money for buy done_to sugar
If you had sold the marijuana, we would have money to buy sugar.

Tense suffixes on a CONJUNCTION?! What was I thinking? Too weird for me.

say something in welsh: Check how to say ''yes'' and ''no'' in the past, the present and in the future.


Well, from what I understand, the Celtic languages say "I do" or "It isn't" or "She might" instead of really having words for yes or no.

By the ANADEW principle, it'd be neat if someone finds an Earth language where conjunctions can take affixes of the type normally given to verbs.

Quote:
Khemehekis wrote:
Not to mention the head-first versus head-last rules. ...

See lesson 5 in the northern version. The word for ''old'' comes before, other adjectives come after the noun. Also see French placement of adjectives.


From what I understand, in Romance languages like Italian some descriptive adjectives come after the noun while a few come before. (So "cattivo gatto" but "gatto bianco".)

Quote:
Khemehekis wrote:
So, yeah, I'm scrapping it. Call me a scrapper. My new conlang is Komgithrian.

What does scrapping actually mean? Will you delete all the files or just declare it as ''scrapped''?


I shall never take down my website. I won't delete my grammar or my dictionary either, as 30,000 words is too many to unceremoniously put into the Recycle Bin.

But did you check the date on my post?

_________________
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 36,000 entries and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr 2012, 13:20 
admin
admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue 11 May 2010, 05:46
Posts: 1235
Location: Upp.
Khemehekis wrote:
But did you check the date on my post?

Posted: Mon 02 Apr 2012

_________________
Image КЕРВЕНСКИЙ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr 2012, 13:23 
cleardarkness
cleardarkness
User avatar

Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 02:47
Posts: 1801
Location: /ai/ > /a:/
Posted: Sun 01 Apr 2012, 22:35

_________________
Up in blue sky silly blimp goes by
Where it come from where it go
Ziggy-Zaggy it fly high


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr 2012, 14:04 
roman
roman

Joined: Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:36
Posts: 670
Location: California über alles
I forget, do we actually set the time to a time zone of our own liking on this board?

EDIT: Mine says "Sun 01 Apr 2012, 19:35". Apparently I did.

_________________
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 36,000 entries and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr 2012, 15:04 
shadowlight
shadowlight
User avatar

Joined: Sat 16 Oct 2010, 02:14
Posts: 2533
Location: Bakom dig.
Yeah, we do [¬.¬].
It was a pretty obvious and boring joke...

_________________
Proto-Hyảlim | Bjarmish

Ón gráti sem jett barn kvéner jag syggji jett lag um deiðan...
[oʊ̯n ˈgɾaːtɪ sɛmː jɛtː baɾn ˈkʰʋɛːnɛɾ jaː ˈsʏd͡ʑːɪ jɛtː laː ʊmː ˈdɛɪ̯an]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr 2012, 15:40 
roman
roman

Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 02:05
Posts: 521
Khemehekis wrote:
I'm not surprised if there all some languages that have 11 fricatives. However, what I was getting at is the admonition frequently conveyed on conlanging boards that making conlangs with many fricatives is a common newbie mistake because on Earth only the Indo-European languages have so many fricatives. Of course, the Afro-Asiatic languages do too.

I always thought that Kankonian is supposed to be the language of the Lehola galaxy, hence not earthly. I like fricatives, so every language featuring many of them is interesting. I even wouldn't call it a ''mistake'', at least unless all the rest is noobish, too.

Khemehekis wrote:
Quote:
Khemehekis wrote:
And the grammar was unnaturalistic as well. It was just weird. ...

Tense suffixes on a CONJUNCTION?! What was I thinking? Too weird for me.

say something in welsh: Check how to say ''yes'' and ''no'' in the past, the present and in the future.


Well, from what I understand, the Celtic languages say "I do" or "It isn't" or "She might" instead of really having words for yes or no.

I thought that, too. Read that in a Gaelic grammar. But this is Welsh. I'm in lesson 6 now. They only told how to say ''yes'' or ''no'' using different words for each tense.

Khemehekis wrote:
Quote:
Khemehekis wrote:
So, yeah, I'm scrapping it. Call me a scrapper. My new conlang is Komgithrian.

What does scrapping actually mean? Will you delete all the files or just declare it as ''scrapped''?


I shall never take down my website. I won't delete my grammar or my dictionary either, as 30,000 words is too many to unceremoniously put into the Recycle Bin.

Yes, 30,000 words is quite a lot. Congratulations on having reached that point, especially as you reached it so soon after the 25,000 milestone.

Skimmed over the beginning of your Kankonian grammar few weeks ago. Reminded me on lingua ignota, somewhat.

Khemehekis wrote:
But did you check the date on my post?

Yes, it was the second of April, hence ''safe''.

_________________
My neurochemistry has fucked my impulse control, now I'm diagnosed OOD = oppositional opinion disorder, one of the most deadly diseases in former soviet union, but can be cured in the free world.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr 2012, 06:34 
roman
roman

Joined: Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:36
Posts: 670
Location: California über alles
Ceresz wrote:
Yeah, we do [¬.¬].
It was a pretty obvious and boring joke...


Well, reading my own post made *me* laugh. I do see a lot of announcements that someone scrapped a language because s/he couldn't get a phonology s/he liked, so this could be read as satire. Of course, I've never seen anyone with a conlang of over 10,000 words scrapping it. (It would be interesting to research: what is the largest lexicon and longest grammar ever for a scraplang?)

Then there are the people who say "A lot of fricatives is newbish!" I've heard that assertion repeated many times on conlanging boards.

_________________
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 36,000 entries and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr 2012, 07:30 
roman
roman

Joined: Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:36
Posts: 670
Location: California über alles
Tanni wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:
I'm not surprised if there all some languages that have 11 fricatives. However, what I was getting at is the admonition frequently conveyed on conlanging boards that making conlangs with many fricatives is a common newbie mistake because on Earth only the Indo-European languages have so many fricatives. Of course, the Afro-Asiatic languages do too.

I always thought that Kankonian is supposed to be the language of the Lehola galaxy, hence not earthly.

It is spoken in the Lehola Galaxy and unrelated to Earth languages. But some conlang advice-givers admonish against using any feature that is found only in Indo-European languages. (Another flaw with this is that Afro-Asiatic languages are also fricative-heavy -- just look at Hebrew, Arabic or Ancient Egyptian.)

Tanni wrote:
I like fricatives, so every language featuring many of them is interesting. I even wouldn't call it a ''mistake'', at least unless all the rest is noobish, too.

For the most part, the languages of Lehola avoid being too Indo-European. For example, none of the alphabets, abjads, abugidas or syllabaries that developed on Kankonia have mixed-case systems. The Kankonian words for "capital" and "lower-case", as a matter of fact, are borrowed from the Epselet language spoken in the Tumarosphere countries on the planet Saros.

Tanni wrote:
I thought that, too. Read that in a Gaelic grammar. But this is Welsh. I'm in lesson 6 now. They only told how to say ''yes'' or ''no'' using different words for each tense.


Neat!

Tanni wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:
I shall never take down my website. I won't delete my grammar or my dictionary either, as 30,000 words is too many to unceremoniously put into the Recycle Bin.

Yes, 30,000 words is quite a lot. Congratulations on having reached that point, especially as you reached it so soon after the 25,000 milestone.


:Takes a bow: Thanks. It took just under a year to get from the 25,000-word milestone to the 30,000-word milestone. I think I'll relax now and go at a more leisurely pace ("go along easily", as they say in Kesh). I still have to do a write-up on all the dialects of Kankonian. (Being the universal language of Kankonia, Kankonian covers a lot of land area and has accrued a great number of dialects and subdialects. Of course, with the level of global communications everywhere, it keeps the dialects from becoming unintelligible. Steven Pinker mentions a prediction someone made that American and British English would become mutually unintelligible in a few hundred years, and Pinker argues against the prediction because international communications have sped up too much, as compared to since the Germanic languages originally diverged.)

Tanni wrote:
Skimmed over the beginning of your Kankonian grammar few weeks ago. Reminded me on lingua ignota, somewhat.


Interesting! I've never heard Kankonian compared to Lingua Ignota. I've heard it compared to Japanese, with its lack of cases on nouns (adpositions do the work) and lack of number/person marking on verbs, combined with agglutinative verbs like "abamizosen" (eat+PASSIVE+FUTURE+PAST = was going to eat). It also has some Germanic traits, such as the ability of prepositions to go without objects under some circumstances.

Tanni wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:
But did you check the date on my post?

Yes, it was the second of April, hence ''safe''.


I figured that even if everyone's CBB is set to a certain time zone, you'd figure that I lived in California (as you know from when we wrote the letter to Ursula K. Le Guin) and would mentally calculate the time and date in my time zone vis-a`-vis your own time zone.

_________________
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 36,000 entries and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr 2012, 14:03 
sinic
sinic

Joined: Sat 11 Sep 2010, 15:02
Posts: 248
I was going to say, your grammatical weirdness was inspiring. To just throw away Kankonian, that'd be a huge loss. If you ever want to do that for real, at least make Kankonian available for all to learn so that it will live on.

_________________
Know phrases in more languages than can fit in this signature.
Speaks English and Spanish.
Reads Sumerian.
There is more.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr 2012, 15:13 
shadowlight
shadowlight
User avatar

Joined: Sat 16 Oct 2010, 02:14
Posts: 2533
Location: Bakom dig.
Khemehekis wrote:
Well, reading my own post made *me* laugh. I do see a lot of announcements that someone scrapped a language because s/he couldn't get a phonology s/he liked, so this could be read as satire. Of course, I've never seen anyone with a conlang of over 10,000 words scrapping it. (It would be interesting to research: what is the largest lexicon and longest grammar ever for a scraplang?)

Dude, you need to get over yourself about the amount of words you've managed to create [¬.¬]. It's not some penis measuring contest.

Khemehekis wrote:
Then there are the people who say "A lot of fricatives is newbish!" I've heard that assertion repeated many times on conlanging boards.

Well, I do agree that having a lot of fricatives doesn't have to be "newbish", as long as you can explain them diachronically.

_________________
Proto-Hyảlim | Bjarmish

Ón gráti sem jett barn kvéner jag syggji jett lag um deiðan...
[oʊ̯n ˈgɾaːtɪ sɛmː jɛtː baɾn ˈkʰʋɛːnɛɾ jaː ˈsʏd͡ʑːɪ jɛtː laː ʊmː ˈdɛɪ̯an]


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group