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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Thu 05 Jul 2012, 17:39 
sinic
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Make you me laugh. Be punished I cannot. Am I invincible, with the power of VSO!

Anyway, an intermediate stage you do not need when to OSV you switch.

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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Thu 05 Jul 2012, 21:29 
runic
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VSO? Saor Alba!
...
*ahem* Sorry, I am. :|

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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Thu 05 Jul 2012, 21:41 
runic
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A portal to the 4th dimension OSV is.

Excellent with rice OSV also is.


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Thu 05 Jul 2012, 23:09 
roman
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Lambuzhao wrote:
A portal to the 4th dimension OSV is.

Excellent with rice OSV also is.

No objects I do see in your post!


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Thu 05 Jul 2012, 23:40 
runic
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Maybe, a noun 'OSV' is being?
So an object 'Rice' is?

(It's easier using a different word order in another language than using it in English...)

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I speak English and a touch of Gàidhlig.
I am creating a conworld, which I refer to as the Carrion Series, that will contain three languages, Iriex, Dvoen and Maxna.


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Thu 05 Jul 2012, 23:58 
mind
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Lambuzhao wrote:
A portal to the 4th dimension OSV is.

Excellent with rice OSV also is.
A portal to the 5th dimension you mean. If to the 4th OSV was, through time we would have traveled.

But agree with you I do. Also good with soy sauce OSV is.

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Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 00:34 
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I'll agree with Systemzwang. Prepositional phrases and adverbials aren't objects. [:S]

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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 00:42 
runic
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Aszev wrote:
I'll agree with Systemzwang. Prepositional phrases and adverbials aren't objects. [:S]

Excellent with rice OSV also is.
OSV is also excellent with rice.

Not Subject and Object?
Well, I'm confused.

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I speak English and a touch of Gàidhlig.
I am creating a conworld, which I refer to as the Carrion Series, that will contain three languages, Iriex, Dvoen and Maxna.


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 00:58 
roman
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Lodhas wrote:
Maybe, a noun 'OSV' is being?
So an object 'Rice' is?

(It's easier using a different word order in another language than using it in English...)

What objects are everyone shoud learn already please.


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 00:59 
roman
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Aszev wrote:
I'll agree with Systemzwang. Prepositional phrases and adverbials aren't objects. [:S]

Nor are, usually, complements.


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 01:00 
cleardarkness
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Lodhas wrote:
Aszev wrote:
I'll agree with Systemzwang. Prepositional phrases and adverbials aren't objects. [:S]

Excellent with rice OSV also is.
OSV is also excellent with rice.

Not Subject and Object?
Well, I'm confused.

How about now?

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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 01:00 
admin
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Lodhas wrote:
Aszev wrote:
I'll agree with Systemzwang. Prepositional phrases and adverbials aren't objects. [:S]

Excellent with rice OSV also is.
OSV is also excellent with rice.

Not Subject and Object?
Well, I'm confused.

To be honest I don't feel confident enough labelling all parts of that sentence with certainty. But what I do know is that there is no object in it, and the "also excellent with rice" part is probably a complement, an adverbial or both(in which case it should be analyzed as two or more parts).

(Besides, "to be" can't have grammatical objects)

Edit: ninjad

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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 01:12 
roman
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Joined: Sun 15 Aug 2010, 15:48
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An object is the phrase on which a transitive verb expresses some kind of action. It can be both NPs and subclauses.

E.g.

I eat candy
I see her
I like chess
I know that she isn't very into science fiction

(there's also the notion of indirect object, such as "I gave her five STDs in one night", "ship me a load of those fudge boxes", "all they told her were lies." (Notice, that one breaks down as "all ... were lies[=COMPLEMENT]", where all [that]=DIRECT OBJECT they=SUBJECT told her[=INDIRECT OBJECT]

A complement is an NP, PP, adverbial phrase or adjective phrase that informs us about the subject:
I am that great!
I painted the house red (notice: the house is the object there)
She isn't at home
She turned frigid once we had gotten our clothes off.

An adverbial is an adverb, a PP or particle or somesuch that clarifies something about the verb. She did not do it, I saw her last night, I swam around in the bay, I long intensely for winter, .. notice, however, that adverbs can be complements as well: I am out of money, I turned the shirt inside out, ...

Some objects in English are prepositional phrases - this is the case with phrasal verbs such as "long for", "wait for", "run up", "stand up", "blow out", "rein in", "take on", etc. Sometimes there's both the option of using a verb with or without an adposition marking its object. In those cases, the phrasal verbs tend to differ in telicity or aspect or somesuch from the non-phrasal one.

The example
"OSV is excellent with rice", with rice isn't even an argument of the verb phrase - it's an adverbial attribute of 'excellent'.

E.g. "excellent with rice" forms one constituent.

People here just do OVS as though it meant [ANY NON-SUBJECT] VERB SUBJECT.

Re: to be, most European languages don't treat it as transitive, but there are languages elsewhere that do parse the complement as an object. This can be tested by object coordination, passivization or whatever other language-specific traits objects have.


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 01:22 
roman
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Joined: Sun 15 Aug 2010, 15:48
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Lodhas wrote:
Maybe, a noun 'OSV' is being?
So an object 'Rice' is?

(It's easier using a different word order in another language than using it in English...)

OSV being a noun does not make rice into an object. Where did you learn grammar?


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 09:31 
runic
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Right, I think I got it.

Systemzwang wrote:
Where did you learn grammar?

Short answer? The internet.
I've been taught how to form grammatical sentences by many people over a protracted period of my life, usually via mimicry, but I have never recieved a lesson designed to teach me how to properly analyse grammar, hence there are rather large gaps in my knowledge.

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I speak English and a touch of Gàidhlig.
I am creating a conworld, which I refer to as the Carrion Series, that will contain three languages, Iriex, Dvoen and Maxna.


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 14:44 
roman
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Lodhas wrote:
Right, I think I got it.

Systemzwang wrote:
Where did you learn grammar?

Short answer? The internet.
I've been taught how to form grammatical sentences by many people over a protracted period of my life, usually via mimicry, but I have never recieved a lesson designed to teach me how to properly analyse grammar, hence there are rather large gaps in my knowledge.


By 'grammar' I kind of meant 'grammatical terminology and analysis', as everyone knows the actual use of some varieties of grammar. The actual analysis is a different thing though, and people tend to suck at it. Get a book or something.


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 14:52 
roman
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Joined: Sun 15 Aug 2010, 15:48
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One test in English that eliminates some non-objects from consideration is passivization.

I am tired.
*tired is been (by me).
I see her
She is seen

We know this.
This is known.

We saw them running.
They were seen running. (note: running is a verbal complement or somesuch here)

She became a teacher.
*A teacher was become by her

Nothing can justify murder.
Murder cannot be justified/ can be justified by nothing. (here, some other rules of English kick in and make "can be justified by nothing" somewhat awkward and odd; can't be justified by anything would roll better with the way English indefinite pronouns work).

Merchants brought greed into this city.
Greed was brought into this city by merchants.
*This city was brought greed into by merchants.

OSV is also excellent with rice.
*excellent with rice is been by OSV.
*with rice is been excellent by OSV.

In the amount of OSV and so on "candidates" in this thread, basically about half were actually by me, the rest lack objects.


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 19:16 
runic
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Systemzwang wrote:
Get a book or something.

Done that. I joined a forum frequented by linguists and linguistics hobbyists too...

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I speak English and a touch of Gàidhlig.
I am creating a conworld, which I refer to as the Carrion Series, that will contain three languages, Iriex, Dvoen and Maxna.


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 20:44 
darkness
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An apricot ate my sister. [:)]


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 Post subject: Re: THE NEW WORD ORDER
PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul 2012, 20:48 
roman
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Lodhas wrote:
Systemzwang wrote:
Get a book or something.

Done that. I joined a forum frequented by linguists and linguistics hobbyists too...

what book did you get?


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