How would you redesign IPA?

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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by sangi39 » Fri 06 Apr 2018, 18:39

Birdlang wrote:
Fri 06 Apr 2018, 13:41
Like ä to ϧ which is from Greek.
It's from Coptic, not Greek, and it represents /x/, so personally that would be a terrible choice.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Birdlang » Fri 06 Apr 2018, 19:22

To be honest I’d actually change it to the aa ligature.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by sangi39 » Sat 07 Apr 2018, 00:19

In all fairness [ä] probably doesn't need changing at all. No language distinguishes it phonemically from another open vowel, and the IPA makes allowances for the use of /a/ in broad phonemic transcriptions to represent an open vowel if it's the only one in the vowel inventory. You only see [ä] being used in narrow phonetic transcriptions, and even then that's not always the case, with some authors consistently using [a], making a point to mention as soon as possible that it has a central pronunciation rather than a front one.

Personally I'd agree with Adarain:
Adarain wrote: ... make /æ/ the front and /a/ the central low vowels...
This saves the whole mess with the centralising diacritic, and as they say, reflects how they're currently used in most situations anyway (and if you need to be more precise about /æ/ then there's always the raising diacritic)
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by sangi39 » Sat 07 Apr 2018, 00:32

Adarain wrote:
Sat 17 Feb 2018, 18:18
I would finally add some additional symbols for laterals. ɭ̊˔ is rather silly for what could be simply ꞎ (which is in unicode, but not officially part of IPA!). Same with the palatal and velar laterals. I also feel like some of the sounds could really do with dedicated voiceless symbols, but I have no idea what non-diacritic-y modification could be made for them.
Oh this would have been so good when I was coming up with the table of consonants that the Kovur could pronounce. I stuck rigidly to the current IPA and ended up having to use a stupid number of diacritics sometimes.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Creyeditor » Sat 07 Apr 2018, 12:12

Wouldn't it also be cool to use the alveopalatal hook on more consonants? Like [ ȴ ȵ ȶ ] and how about adding a another curl for the voiceless lateral fricative?
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Nortaneous » Wed 09 May 2018, 12:27

Alveopalatal hook should obviously be added, and the existing palatal symbols should be reserved for prevelars. Also sinological symbols for fricated vowels, symbols for linguolabials and non-alveolar lateral fricatives, symbol for the 'glottal pulse' (Gimi, Finnish)...

The symbol for the uvular nasal should probably be replaced. Smallcaps N is mostly used for a 'placeless nasal' as in Japanese, and a real uvular nasal is very rare. AFAIK it only occurs in Kusunda and a few Inuit languages.

Insisting on single-story g is dumb, especially since some applications use a special Unicode value for it and oops your query says no languages have voiced velar plosives.

New symbol for dental click, for obvious reasons.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 09 May 2018, 14:41

Nortaneous wrote:
Wed 09 May 2018, 12:27
symbol for the 'glottal pulse' (Gimi, Finnish)...
What is the glottal pulse?

Nortaneous wrote:
Wed 09 May 2018, 12:27
Insisting on single-story g is dumb, especially since some applications use a special Unicode value for it and oops your query says no languages have voiced velar plosives.
The IPA does not really insist on it.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by eldin raigmore » Wed 09 May 2018, 15:06

Creyeditor wrote:
Wed 09 May 2018, 14:41
What is the glottal pulse?
Well; you can check someone’s heartbeat in their wrist, or their ankle, or along the side of their neck, or by sticking your finger down their throat and touching their vocal chords.

Happy to be of help.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by gach » Wed 09 May 2018, 15:21

Creyeditor wrote:
Wed 09 May 2018, 14:41
Nortaneous wrote:
Wed 09 May 2018, 12:27
symbol for the 'glottal pulse' (Gimi, Finnish)...
What is the glottal pulse?
In Gimi there's a creaky voiced glottal approximant developed from earlier /g/ that acts functionally as a "voiced glottal stop". In Finnish is could refer to the word final phonemic glottal stop that's most notable when it participates in sandhi. For me its allophones are full assimilation to a following consonant (forming a geminate) in preconsonantal sandhi, a regular geminate glottal stop in prevocalic sandhi, and a weak glottal constriction (a glottal tap?) or sometimes full loss when isolated at the end of a phrase. Could also refer to subglottal pulse (https://www.academia.edu/5111122/On_Subglottal_Pulses), though that's more a phenomenon of sound amplitude.
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by Nortaneous » Tue 29 May 2018, 07:19

Right, subglottal pulse.

How acoustically and articulatorily different is the Gimi 'voiced glottal stop' from the Finnish realization of the syllable boundary in minimal pairs like /hæ.æt/ "carbon monoxides" vs. /hæ:t/ "wedding", /va:.an/ "of the scale" vs. /va:n/ "however" vs. /va.an/ "venerable.GEN".
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Re: How would you redesign IPA?

Post by gach » Tue 29 May 2018, 20:05

Nortaneous wrote:
Tue 29 May 2018, 07:19
How acoustically and articulatorily different is the Gimi 'voiced glottal stop' from the Finnish realization of the syllable boundary in minimal pairs like /hæ.æt/ "carbon monoxides" vs. /hæ:t/ "wedding", /va:.an/ "of the scale" vs. /va:n/ "however" vs. /va.an/ "venerable.GEN".
I have little idea since I've never heard a recording of spoken Gimi. However, the Gimi voiced glottal is described as being creaky, which makes me assume that it includes glottal closure. In Finnish there's no closure associated with intervocalic syllable boundaries and in many cases two vowels with a hiatus can be in free variation with a long vowel of a diphthong. The genitive of "carbon monoxide" can thus absolutely fine be pronounced as a disyllable [hæ.æn] or a monosyllable [hæ:n] or the plural of "application" as either [ha.ut] or [haut] with little acoustic difference. As I understand the analysis, the subglottal pulses are nothing more than local minima in the sound volume.

For the purposes of transcription, I find the syllable boundary mark to be a reasonably adequate symbol for subglottal pulses. That gives at least some phonetic interpretation for what a syllable boundary should mean.
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