Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

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Isfendil
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Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Isfendil »

This question may be frivolous or obvious. Now obviously said people could probably use a glottal fricative, it is after all just breath, but can their language simply not use it?
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by shimobaatar »

It's a perfectly valid question. Yes, it's possible for a language to lack /h/ as a phoneme. I believe Rotokas is one example of such a language.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Frislander »

shimobaatar wrote:It's a perfectly valid question. Yes, it's possible for a language to lack /h/ as a phoneme. I believe Rotokas is one example of such a language.
Along with almost Standard Mandarin Chinese, all languages in Australia, Slavic languages, many languages in New Guinea (Rotokas is a Papuan languages) such as Yimas, many Uralic languages, Mapudungun, and countless others I couldn't possibly name.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Isfendil »

Frislander wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:It's a perfectly valid question. Yes, it's possible for a language to lack /h/ as a phoneme. I believe Rotokas is one example of such a language.
Along with almost Standard Mandarin Chinese, all languages in Australia, Slavic languages, many languages in New Guinea (Rotokas is a Papuan languages) such as Yimas, many Uralic languages, Mapudungun, and countless others I couldn't possibly name.
Alright the others I understand, thank you for the wealth of examples, but Mandarin? What about the word for "good"(one of the few words I know)?
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Frislander »

Isfendil wrote:
Frislander wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:It's a perfectly valid question. Yes, it's possible for a language to lack /h/ as a phoneme. I believe Rotokas is one example of such a language.
Along with almost Standard Mandarin Chinese, all languages in Australia, Slavic languages, many languages in New Guinea (Rotokas is a Papuan languages) such as Yimas, many Uralic languages, Mapudungun, and countless others I couldn't possibly name.
Alright the others I understand, thank you for the wealth of examples, but Mandarin? What about the word for "good"(one of the few words I know)?
That's generally velar fricative in the standard dialect.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by gach »

Velar and glottal fricatives are quite different things but the lack of both of them in a language is a common thing. For the lack of /h/ you don't have to go any further than French or Spanish. There are even English dialects that like ditching their /h/, though I'm not sure if any dialect does that fully.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by k1234567890y »

yes, as mentioned above, it is possible, and it seems that there are languages that don't have /t/ or /k/, two of the most consonants among languages in the world.
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Adarain »

Doesn't like, Spanish lack it? Portuguese only has it in dialects where /rr/ turned into it, others have some sort of uvular or [r] in those positions.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Khemehekis »

I know Italian doesn't have /h/.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by sangi39 »

Going by the Guide to Small Consonant Inventories over on the ZBB, phonemically, Iau has /f/ and /s/, but no /h/, as does Akoye and East Mekeo (apparently North Mekeo is even weirder, having only /z/), Central Miyako and Desano, Girawa and Keuw have just /s/.

Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be a language on the list that only has /f/ (undisputed, at least). Where there's an /f/ or a /ɸ/ you'll find one or both of /s/ and /h/.

According to that same list, Angaataha has /ʃ/ as its sole fricative.

Overall my thinking is that if you have one fricative, it's going to be either glottal or a sibilant and after that it sort of builds up, but there's nothing saying you have to have both a glottal and a sibilant fricative first before having other fricatives (note South Marquesan, Tahitian, Maori, Niuean and Sentani which have /f/ and /h/ but no /s/)
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Isfendil »

May I extend this question a bit?

The extension is, is there at least one phoneme or one class of phonemes (by place of articulation) that must always occur in any language? Maybe <m> is my guess?
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Creyeditor »

Isfendil wrote:May I extend this question a bit?

The extension is, is there at least one phoneme or one class of phonemes (by place of articulation) that must always occur in any language?
No. Maybe only one MOA, i.e. plosive. I do not know of any plosive-less language.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Frislander »

Creyeditor wrote:
Isfendil wrote:May I extend this question a bit?

The extension is, is there at least one phoneme or one class of phonemes (by place of articulation) that must always occur in any language?
No. Maybe only one MOA, i.e. plosive. I do not know of any plosive-less language.
That seems reasonable. And also stipilate that there must be plosives at at least two of bilabial, alveolar and velar. (Also, when a language lacks a plosive at one of those POAs, it seeme like there must also be a glottal stop. Any counterexamples?)
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Creyeditor »

Frislander wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
Isfendil wrote:May I extend this question a bit?

The extension is, is there at least one phoneme or one class of phonemes (by place of articulation) that must always occur in any language?
No. Maybe only one MOA, i.e. plosive. I do not know of any plosive-less language.
That seems reasonable. And also stipilate that there must be plosives at at least two of bilabial, alveolar and velar.
A lot of languages have no alveolar stop, only dental stops.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Salmoneus »

Frislander wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
Isfendil wrote:May I extend this question a bit?

The extension is, is there at least one phoneme or one class of phonemes (by place of articulation) that must always occur in any language?
No. Maybe only one MOA, i.e. plosive. I do not know of any plosive-less language.
That seems reasonable. And also stipilate that there must be plosives at at least two of bilabial, alveolar and velar. (Also, when a language lacks a plosive at one of those POAs, it seeme like there must also be a glottal stop. Any counterexamples?)
From previous discussions, there are exceptions to "two out of /ptk?/", but they are very, very, very few.

I'd suggest: all languages have a coronal POA. A bunch don't have labials, and I wouldn't be totally shocked if some didn't have velars, but I'm guessing everything has at least one coronal.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Nachtuil »

As someone else already mentioned, French does lack one :)
Isfendil wrote:May I extend this question a bit?

The extension is, is there at least one phoneme or one class of phonemes (by place of articulation) that must always occur in any language? Maybe <m> is my guess?
Even m is present in 95% of languages: http://phoible.org/parameters
Look for segments.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Iyionaku »

Isfendil wrote:May I extend this question a bit?

The extension is, is there at least one phoneme or one class of phonemes (by place of articulation) that must always occur in any language? Maybe <m> is my guess?
I think that every language contains at least one open vowel. Most likely, all even have a front-open vowel, albeit I'm not sure about that.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by k1234567890y »

Creyeditor wrote:
Isfendil wrote:May I extend this question a bit?

The extension is, is there at least one phoneme or one class of phonemes (by place of articulation) that must always occur in any language?
No. Maybe only one MOA, i.e. plosive. I do not know of any plosive-less language.
I think every language has a coronal consonant, and when it has a coronal consonant, it is likely to haer a dental or alveolar consonant.

Also, it seems that every phoneme is absent from at least one language.

I have atated in another forum that every language seems to use at least three places of articulation, and every languages makes at least a binary(usually more) distinction on something other than the place of articulation for its consonant system.
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by Frislander »

Creyeditor wrote:
Frislander wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
Isfendil wrote:May I extend this question a bit?

The extension is, is there at least one phoneme or one class of phonemes (by place of articulation) that must always occur in any language?
No. Maybe only one MOA, i.e. plosive. I do not know of any plosive-less language.
That seems reasonable. And also stipilate that there must be plosives at at least two of bilabial, alveolar and velar.
A lot of languages have no alveolar stop, only dental stops.
True, so we stipulate alveolar/dental instead.
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Re: Can a language not have a glottal fricative?

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien »

Iyionaku wrote:
Isfendil wrote:May I extend this question a bit?

The extension is, is there at least one phoneme or one class of phonemes (by place of articulation) that must always occur in any language? Maybe <m> is my guess?
I think that every language contains at least one open vowel. Most likely, all even have a front-open vowel, albeit I'm not sure about that.
Arapaho apparently does not!
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