Please Comment on what I have

If you're new to these arts, this is the place to ask "stupid" questions and get directions!
User avatar
Taurenzine
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 195
Joined: 03 Oct 2016 17:29

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine »

So now I have to sort each combo using the things I have on the right. it's gonna take a while...

Image
Nachtuil
greek
greek
Posts: 595
Joined: 21 Jul 2016 00:16

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Nachtuil »

Good stuff. When I did that I found it easier to actually make the graph first and only fill in the clusters I wanted instead of removing the ones I don't want but you're here now. :) You may want a chart for syllable onset and coda.
User avatar
Taurenzine
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 195
Joined: 03 Oct 2016 17:29

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine »

Nachtuil wrote:Good stuff. When I did that I found it easier to actually make the graph first and only fill in the clusters I wanted instead of removing the ones I don't want but you're here now. :) You may want a chart for syllable onset and coda.
You made is sound quite a bit simpler now that you've said that. I'm too far into it so I'm gonna finish the chart but if I had taken the time to think that way I definitely wouldn't have done it the way I did. it terms of Onset and coda syllable structure, I think I'm gonna go for either a (C)(C)(V)(C)(C) aka (C2)(V)(C2) or a (C)(C)(V)(C)(C)(C) aka(C2)(V)(C3).
User avatar
Taurenzine
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 195
Joined: 03 Oct 2016 17:29

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine »

I need some help actually. Anyone who see's this post, please tell me if you think the order of these consonants makes sense (Which ones are the quietest to which ones are the loudest) and if you don't think something fits, please tell me about it, so I can fix it.
Image
Nachtuil
greek
greek
Posts: 595
Joined: 21 Jul 2016 00:16

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Nachtuil »

This type of thing has actually been studied a bit. There is a thing called a sonority hierarchy.
Typically it goes as follows from loudest to quietest with examples of each:

1. Vowels /a/ /i/ /o/
2. Approximants (glides, liquids and trills) /w/ /j/ /l/ /r/
3. Nasals /n/ /m/
4. Fricatives /f/ /s/ /v/
5. Affricates /t͡ʃ/ /d͡ʒ/
6. Stops/Plosives /p/ /t/ /k/

Here is more information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonority_hierarchy

A lot of languages pay attention to this when deciding on syllable structure. Commonly, lower sonority sounds will be at the edges and vowels of course are in the centre so sonority rises and then falls over a syllable. A good example might be "Tsump" with the loudest part of the syllable being in the centre. Some languages allow breaking of this like english does with clusters like "st" and "sk" in onset, like "stop" and "sky"

To your specific question, it would make sense then that your stops would be at one end, followed by affricates, followed by fricatives, followed by nasals, and then followed by your approximates. That would be the orthodox expectation. It is not exactly that simple however due to other factors such as secondary articulations like aspiration. If you notice in English for exampe the /p/ in "pot" is louder than the p in "soup" as the first is aspirated and the second plain. I would venture to guess that voiced consonants are louder than their unvoiced counterparts. Ejective articulation might make a consonant louder than the plain version too.

I hope that helps. I can manually show you how I would rearrange your list if you need, I just don't want to do it on the electronic device I am currently using. I notice you do place your voiced consonants in a louder position than your unvoiced which is totally good. It is entirely possible that in your language the sonority hierarchy conforms to how you've described it too so I wouldn't worry about it all too much. It depends what you plan to do with it.

Edit: here is a ranking for English found on the Wikipedia page I linked above:
[a] > [e o] > > [r] > [l] > [m n ŋ] > [z v ð] > [s f θ] > [b d ɡ] > [p t k]
Notice how it neatly follows the sonority hierarchy more or less although it does not list semi vowels and affricates.
User avatar
Frislander
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2088
Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
Location: The North

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Frislander »

Nachtuil wrote:Edit: here is a ranking for English found on the Wikipedia page I linked above:
[a] > [e o] > > [r] > [l] > [m n ŋ] > [z v ð] > [s f θ] > [b d ɡ] > [p t k]
Notice how it neatly follows the sonority hierarchy more or less although it does not list semi vowels and affricates.


Yet more "English has five vowels". Ugh, I'm sick of it.
Nachtuil
greek
greek
Posts: 595
Joined: 21 Jul 2016 00:16

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Nachtuil »

Frislander wrote:
Nachtuil wrote:Edit: here is a ranking for English found on the Wikipedia page I linked above:
[a] > [e o] > > [r] > [l] > [m n ŋ] > [z v ð] > [s f θ] > [b d ɡ] > [p t k]
Notice how it neatly follows the sonority hierarchy more or less although it does not list semi vowels and affricates.


Yet more "English has five vowels". Ugh, I'm sick of it.


Yeah, I wonder if it is ignorance or a deliberate but sloppy simplification on the part of the editor. On the one hand it leaves out a few consonants so it may be a deliberate selection but on the other I don't know a dialect of English that actually has /o/ and /u/.
GrandPiano
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2080
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: USA

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by GrandPiano »

Nachtuil wrote:
Frislander wrote:
Nachtuil wrote:Edit: here is a ranking for English found on the Wikipedia page I linked above:
[a] > [e o] > > [r] > [l] > [m n ŋ] > [z v ð] > [s f θ] > [b d ɡ] > [p t k]
Notice how it neatly follows the sonority hierarchy more or less although it does not list semi vowels and affricates.


Yet more "English has five vowels". Ugh, I'm sick of it.


Yeah, I wonder if it is ignorance or a deliberate but sloppy simplification on the part of the editor. On the one hand it leaves out a few consonants so it may be a deliberate selection but on the other I don't know a dialect of English that actually has /o/ and /u/.

Most dialects of English have /u/ in words like <boot> /but/, even if it's phonetically more front and/or diphthongized than the of most languages. /o/ could be a way of transcribing what would normally be transcribed as /oʊ̯/ or /əʊ̯/, but there are some dialects of English that actually have [o] for that phoneme, such as Scottish English.
Nachtuil
greek
greek
Posts: 595
Joined: 21 Jul 2016 00:16

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Nachtuil »

GrandPiano wrote:
Nachtuil wrote:
Frislander wrote:
Nachtuil wrote:Edit: here is a ranking for English found on the Wikipedia page I linked above:
[a] > [e o] > > [r] > [l] > [m n ŋ] > [z v ð] > [s f θ] > [b d ɡ] > [p t k]
Notice how it neatly follows the sonority hierarchy more or less although it does not list semi vowels and affricates.


Yet more "English has five vowels". Ugh, I'm sick of it.


Yeah, I wonder if it is ignorance or a deliberate but sloppy simplification on the part of the editor. On the one hand it leaves out a few consonants so it may be a deliberate selection but on the other I don't know a dialect of English that actually has /o/ and /u/.

Most dialects of English have /u/ in words like <boot> /but/, even if it's phonetically more front and/or diphthongized than the of most languages. /o/ could be a way of transcribing what would normally be transcribed as /oʊ̯/ or /əʊ̯/, but there are some dialects of English that actually have [o] for that phoneme, such as Scottish English.


Fair enough. My dialect only has /u:/ but maybe I am silly to be overly technical since that is still a variation of /u/.

Taurezine, you may find you'll greatly restrict your possible clusters based on voicing. It is common for languages to only have voiced fricatives, affricatea and plosives clustered with voiced and unvoiced with unvoiced. /Zest/ or /zezd/ is a lot easier to say than /zezt/ or /zesd/ for many people.
GrandPiano
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2080
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: USA

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by GrandPiano »

Nachtuil wrote:
GrandPiano wrote:
Nachtuil wrote:
Frislander wrote:
Nachtuil wrote:Edit: here is a ranking for English found on the Wikipedia page I linked above:
[a] > [e o] > > [r] > [l] > [m n ŋ] > [z v ð] > [s f θ] > [b d ɡ] > [p t k]
Notice how it neatly follows the sonority hierarchy more or less although it does not list semi vowels and affricates.


Yet more "English has five vowels". Ugh, I'm sick of it.


Yeah, I wonder if it is ignorance or a deliberate but sloppy simplification on the part of the editor. On the one hand it leaves out a few consonants so it may be a deliberate selection but on the other I don't know a dialect of English that actually has /o/ and /u/.

Most dialects of English have /u/ in words like <boot> /but/, even if it's phonetically more front and/or diphthongized than the of most languages. /o/ could be a way of transcribing what would normally be transcribed as /oʊ̯/ or /əʊ̯/, but there are some dialects of English that actually have [o] for that phoneme, such as Scottish English.


Fair enough. My dialect only has /u:/ but maybe I am silly to be overly technical since that is still a variation of /u/.

In most dialects it would be more accurately transcribed as [uː], but I'm ignoring length because it's not a major distinguishing feature of English vowels (short would usually be interpreted as /uː/ and long [ʊː] would usually be interpreted as /ʊ/). If I were including minor phonetic details like that, I might as well write /u̟ː/ or /ʊu̯/.
Nachtuil
greek
greek
Posts: 595
Joined: 21 Jul 2016 00:16

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Nachtuil »

GrandPiano wrote:
Nachtuil wrote: Fair enough. My dialect only has /u:/ but maybe I am silly to be overly technical since that is still a variation of /u/.
In most dialects it would be more accurately transcribed as [uː], but I'm ignoring length because it's not a major distinguishing feature of English vowels (short would usually be interpreted as /uː/ and long [ʊː] would usually be interpreted as /ʊ/). If I were including minor phonetic details like that, I might as well write /u̟ː/ or /ʊu̯/.

You may have misread what I wrote.
User avatar
Taurenzine
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 195
Joined: 03 Oct 2016 17:29

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine »

Some of my phonotactics....

Image
Nachtuil
greek
greek
Posts: 595
Joined: 21 Jul 2016 00:16

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Nachtuil »

Are you just doing CVC syllable structure then? Nothing wrong with that. You may next want to consider if there are sound changes when you have different codas and wonders adjacent like the voicing rules as mentioned before. I think it is pleasantly interesting you have no rhotics in coda.
User avatar
Taurenzine
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 195
Joined: 03 Oct 2016 17:29

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine »

Nachtuil wrote:Are you just doing CVC syllable structure then? Nothing wrong with that. You may next want to consider if there are sound changes when you have different codas and wonders adjacent like the voicing rules as mentioned before. I think it is pleasantly interesting you have no rhotics in coda.
Actually I was gonna go for CCVCC. this is just for the single consonants. I'm gonna be posting a lot of incomplete stuff on here, but thanks for supporting me.
User avatar
Taurenzine
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 195
Joined: 03 Oct 2016 17:29

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine »

These are my CODA Consonants Clusters. and yes, I said Coda. Weirdly enough I did coda first, not the Onset clusters.

Image
User avatar
Taurenzine
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 195
Joined: 03 Oct 2016 17:29

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine »

These are my onset clusters. and yes its a CCVCC language, this language that is.

Image
Sumelic
greek
greek
Posts: 566
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 23:01

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Sumelic »

The gap in initial Cl clusters starting with the plosives (/p b k g t d/) strikes me as unusual. I'd guess one sound change speakers of this language would be prone to is de-nasalization of onset /ml/ to /bl/. (maybe also /nl/ > /dl/ and /ŋl/ > /gl/, but I'm not sure about the first because clusters like /dl/ are sometimes disfavored due to the similarity in place of /d/ and /l/, and initial /ŋ/ is rare enough that I don't have a good sense for what sound changes it is prone to)
GrandPiano
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2080
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: USA

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by GrandPiano »

Sumelic wrote:but I'm not sure about the first because clusters like /dl/ are sometimes disfavored due to the similarity in place of /d/ and /l/
Wouldn't /nl/ be disfavored for the same reason? If anything, I'd think that /dl/ would be more favored than /nl/ since /n/ and /l/ are both sonorants while /d/ isn't.
Sumelic
greek
greek
Posts: 566
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 23:01

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Sumelic »

GrandPiano wrote:
Sumelic wrote:but I'm not sure about the first because clusters like /dl/ are sometimes disfavored due to the similarity in place of /d/ and /l/
Wouldn't /nl/ be disfavored for the same reason? If anything, I'd think that /dl/ would be more favored than /nl/ since /n/ and /l/ are both sonorants while /d/ isn't.
I don't really know. Probably onset /nl/ would also be disfavored for the same reason, but perhaps it would be likely to be resolved via some other kind of sound change, like syllabifying the /n/, adding a prothetic vowel or something like that.
User avatar
Taurenzine
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 195
Joined: 03 Oct 2016 17:29

Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine »

Sumelic wrote:
GrandPiano wrote:
Sumelic wrote:but I'm not sure about the first because clusters like /dl/ are sometimes disfavored due to the similarity in place of /d/ and /l/
Wouldn't /nl/ be disfavored for the same reason? If anything, I'd think that /dl/ would be more favored than /nl/ since /n/ and /l/ are both sonorants while /d/ isn't.
I don't really know. Probably onset /nl/ would also be disfavored for the same reason, but perhaps it would be likely to be resolved via some other kind of sound change, like syllabifying the /n/, adding a prothetic vowel or something like that.
You guys have brought attention to something I would like to remove, which is why I like this forum, it helps me think about this while I go through it. so I am going to remove /ml/, /nl/, /ŋl/, /ʒl/, /ʃl/, /θl/, and /ðl/. Btw I never had a /dl/ and I don't want to, I don't know how that became part of the conversation
Post Reply