Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
I've been working on a conlang where a descendant of Hittite survives deep in the mountains of Cappadocia (originally titled Cappadocian, or Nasiǝl natively), but I've run into somewhat of an issue. In Hittite animate nouns the nominative singular and both the genitive singular and plural have the same ending (-as). To make things a bit clearer, I've considered creating a sort of status constructus where a word shifts into the dative case when it is possessed, but is that realistic in any way, shape or form?
PS: Please pardon the question d'amateur.
EDIT: changed tense to case.
PS: Please pardon the question d'amateur.
EDIT: changed tense to case.
Last edited by Pāṇini on 07 May 2018 00:07, edited 1 time in total.
天含青海道。城頭月千里。
/tʰiæn ɣɑm tsʰieŋ.hɑ́i dʱɑ́u ‖ ʑʱeŋ dʱəu ᵑgyæɾ tsʰiæn lí/
The sky swallows the road to Kokonor. On the Great Wall, a thousand miles of moonlight.
—/lí ɣɑ̀/ (李賀), tr. A. C. Graham
/tʰiæn ɣɑm tsʰieŋ.hɑ́i dʱɑ́u ‖ ʑʱeŋ dʱəu ᵑgyæɾ tsʰiæn lí/
The sky swallows the road to Kokonor. On the Great Wall, a thousand miles of moonlight.
—/lí ɣɑ̀/ (李賀), tr. A. C. Graham
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- mongolian
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Re: Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
I don't know the answer, but I believe you mean the dative case, not the dative tense.
♂♥♂♀
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 87,413 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 87,413 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Re: Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
Yes, of course, I'm sorry—wasn't quite thinking.
天含青海道。城頭月千里。
/tʰiæn ɣɑm tsʰieŋ.hɑ́i dʱɑ́u ‖ ʑʱeŋ dʱəu ᵑgyæɾ tsʰiæn lí/
The sky swallows the road to Kokonor. On the Great Wall, a thousand miles of moonlight.
—/lí ɣɑ̀/ (李賀), tr. A. C. Graham
/tʰiæn ɣɑm tsʰieŋ.hɑ́i dʱɑ́u ‖ ʑʱeŋ dʱəu ᵑgyæɾ tsʰiæn lí/
The sky swallows the road to Kokonor. On the Great Wall, a thousand miles of moonlight.
—/lí ɣɑ̀/ (李賀), tr. A. C. Graham
Re: Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
I seem to recall that some languages use the dative, rather than the genitive, to mark the possessor. Latin and Ancient Greek, according to Wikipedia, used it at least in the sense of "to X is Y" where X is the possessor and Y is the thing possessed, e.g. "to me is a dog" in place of "I have a dog" (Russian does something similar but uses the preposition у + genitive possessor + copula + possessed noun). Apparently Serbo-Croatian takes this one step further, using the dative to mark the possessor directly, although one source I found suggested that this is used alongside the genitive based on inalienable vs. alienable lines, and nouns can be converted into genitive adjectives as well (which then decline to agree with the noun they possess).
As for the possessed noun being marked in the dative, I'm not sure. I haven't found an example of it yet.
As for the possessed noun being marked in the dative, I'm not sure. I haven't found an example of it yet.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
So… … what ur looking for is a "possessed case". I do not think that happens in the IE gang.
The Cariban Languages and Tlingit, as per Wikipedia, apparently have a "possessed case", where the noun possessed is marked, rather than the possessor.
Semitic langs and Egyptian, and Finnish, have pronominal suffixes which sort of act like a possessed case (mebbe ¿?)
at least in a personal-referent sort of way.
Ex.
Tlingit
hit 'house'
Jáan hídi “John's house”.
However, a Comitative Dative (as in and ) might be kitbashed to do duty as a makeshift "possessed case" (¿?)
If ur Hittite descendant has an Instrumental case, maybe that (¿¿??).
Hm..... Hittite seems to have an allative case in oldenest times. Maybe repurpose that somehow???
It's an interesting question.
The Cariban Languages and Tlingit, as per Wikipedia, apparently have a "possessed case", where the noun possessed is marked, rather than the possessor.
Semitic langs and Egyptian, and Finnish, have pronominal suffixes which sort of act like a possessed case (mebbe ¿?)
at least in a personal-referent sort of way.
Ex.
Tlingit
hit 'house'
Jáan hídi “John's house”.
Spoiler:
However, a Comitative Dative (as in and ) might be kitbashed to do duty as a makeshift "possessed case" (¿?)
(H.W. Smyth, A Greek Grammar for Colleges)a. The instrumental dative is often akin to the comitative dative: ““ἀλώμενος νηί τε καὶ ἑτάροισι” wandering with his ship and companions” λ 161, ““νηυσὶν οἰχήσονται” they shall go with their ships” Ω 731, ““θυ_μῷ καὶ ῥώμῃ τὸ πλέον ἐναυμάχουν ἢ ἐπιστήμῃ” they fought with passionate violence and brute force rather than by a system of tactics” T. 1.49.
If ur Hittite descendant has an Instrumental case, maybe that (¿¿??).
Hm..... Hittite seems to have an allative case in oldenest times. Maybe repurpose that somehow???
It's an interesting question.
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Re: Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
as i inderstand it Akkadian (Semitic IIANM) had both a construct state for the posessum (the <<chose possédée>>) and used the genitive for (possibly among other things) the possessor.
Could Hittite and Akkadian have shared areal features?
Could a construct state or possessed case have been such a shared areal feature?
Note: I might be mistaken, but, my impression is “construct” is a “state”, like definite, instead of a “case”, like accusative.
That might not be very relevant to the question at hand.
Could Hittite and Akkadian have shared areal features?
Could a construct state or possessed case have been such a shared areal feature?
Note: I might be mistaken, but, my impression is “construct” is a “state”, like definite, instead of a “case”, like accusative.
That might not be very relevant to the question at hand.
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
Re: Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
I don't see a logical issue with that idea, but an intermediate step might simply be a total loss of case for the possessor and possessed (or sharing of the same case), perhaps supported by an intervening clitic.
I went for a ride on a spaceship
Re: Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
You can always analyse that there are two different cases that are just homonymic.
Historically, I don't find it intuitive that the dative accuires genitive meanings, but of course the morphemes can have distinct origins and just collapse by accident.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
Re: Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
Like the genitive & locative in some of the declensions. I'd give that a thumbs up.
From a (P)IE quick'n'dirty comparison, , :grk:, Sanskrit (if I remember rightly), and Slavic languages demonstrate a 'Dative of Possession', but it's the possessor that's put into the Dative Case, not the noun that's possessed.Historically, I don't find it intuitive that the dative accuires genitive meanings, but of course the morphemes can have distinct origins and just collapse by accident.
From a (P)IE perspective, this would definitely be an innovation of (insert) case usage.
- eldin raigmore
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Re: Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
To have dative acquire genitive-of-possessor meanings (or vice versa), seems to me much likelier than to have dative acquire construct-state meaning or vice-versa. Recipients tend to become possessors.
Another possibility; have allative acquire dative-of-recipient meanings, while in parallel, locative or adesssive acquires genitive-of-possessor meanings. This might go along with having the agent of ditransitive verbs being in the ablative.
Whatever you decide to do is satisfactory if _you_ are satisfied.
——————————
Lambuzhao and Omzinesy said similar things, while I was typing.
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
- KaiTheHomoSapien
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Re: Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
Just remember that case labels are only descriptions of their most general functions: cases aren't totally monolithic; there are often blurred lines between them and unexpected functions may arise as the language evolves (as well as various syncretisms in the forms).
But I love this idea because my conlang is heavily based on Hittite, and I agree that the Hittite case forms are a little lackluster
But I love this idea because my conlang is heavily based on Hittite, and I agree that the Hittite case forms are a little lackluster
Re: Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
I find that I've pretty much decided on using the Hittite dative Balkan style as a "to x, y" dative of possession, as most of y'all suggested—it seems a bit more satisfying. Here's a short bit of text in Nasiǝl, using Aesop's famous The North Wind and the Sun:
The animate and inanimate genders have fallen into each other, as had already started during the written Hittite period. Among the major sound changes, long vowels have shifted and word final -i has turned into a schwa and metathesized into the preceding syllable. Cappadocian also has been influenced by (quite naturally) Turkish and Byzantine Greek as far as loanwords go. I've been looking at creating an Arabic orthography but I'll admit I don't know enough about the abjad to make something very good—although Nasiǝl's phonology is broadly similar to Azeri. Thoughts?
Spoiler:
天含青海道。城頭月千里。
/tʰiæn ɣɑm tsʰieŋ.hɑ́i dʱɑ́u ‖ ʑʱeŋ dʱəu ᵑgyæɾ tsʰiæn lí/
The sky swallows the road to Kokonor. On the Great Wall, a thousand miles of moonlight.
—/lí ɣɑ̀/ (李賀), tr. A. C. Graham
/tʰiæn ɣɑm tsʰieŋ.hɑ́i dʱɑ́u ‖ ʑʱeŋ dʱəu ᵑgyæɾ tsʰiæn lí/
The sky swallows the road to Kokonor. On the Great Wall, a thousand miles of moonlight.
—/lí ɣɑ̀/ (李賀), tr. A. C. Graham
Re: Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
From which forms construct states / possessed cases usually develop?
In Arabic, I think, it's just old cases suffixes, gender suffixes, and such, that have been left when NP-final affixes have been dropped off.
In Arabic, I think, it's just old cases suffixes, gender suffixes, and such, that have been left when NP-final affixes have been dropped off.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
Re: Modern Hittite lang: realistic?
The system could make sense as a whole reverse-Suffixaufnahme, but not sure if it would be realistic.
Spoiler: