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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr 2012, 04:28 
greek
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I'm trying to figure out the alignment of my language now, since it was nominative/accusative but now has a different case that is the subject of an intransitive verb. What would I call this case?

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr 2012, 04:50 
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If it retains both the Nominative and Accusative but also has a case for the subject of an intransitive verb, then it's actually an entirely different alignment called Tripartite. Do note that this this is VERY rare in natlangs.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr 2012, 06:42 
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wakeagainstthefall wrote:
I'm trying to figure out the alignment of my language now, since it was nominative/accusative but now has a different case that is the subject of an intransitive verb. What would I call this case?

Just post the relevant paradigms and some example sentences.

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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr 2012, 03:31 
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I'm in the process of completely rebuilding my language right now, so I couldn't really do that at the moment.
One case is unmarked and is the subject of the transitive verb, another case is the marked case as the direct object of the transitive verb (so nom-acc alignment so far,) but then there is another marked case for the subject of an intransitive verb. What would these cases be called?

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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr 2012, 03:47 
cleardarkness
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You have no excuse for not posting at least the English translations and marking which nouns would are marked with what marker.
Three distinct cases means tripartite; it's not nominative-accusative alignment so far if the case for transitive clauses isn't also used in intransitive ones. I have no idea where you're getting ergativity out of this, I'd expect the intransitive one to be the unmarked one, and I guess Chagen was right about something.

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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr 2012, 06:07 
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Quote:
I'd expect the intransitive one to be the unmarked one


Not if its a Marked Nominative lang, which is attested in real-life.

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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr 2012, 07:01 
cleardarkness
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Please read what I wrote in its entirety. Also, don't stab anyone.

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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr 2012, 07:46 
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wakeagainstthefall wrote:
I'm in the process of completely rebuilding my language right now, so I couldn't really do that at the moment.
One case is unmarked and is the subject of the transitive verb, another case is the marked case as the direct object of the transitive verb (so nom-acc alignment so far,) but then there is another marked case for the subject of an intransitive verb. What would these cases be called?

Like Krov and Chagen have said, this sounds like a (peculiar) tripartite system. Typically, your case names would be:

"Ergative" for the agent-of-transitive-clause case;

"Accusative" for the patient-of-transitive-clause case;

"Intransitive" for the subject-of-intransitive-clause case.

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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr 2012, 13:05 
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I use Absolutive for Trailsend's Intransitive case in Snowfall(which is now undergoing a major reform).


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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 07:58 
greek
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But I thought that the ergative case was marked, or can it not be?

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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 08:50 
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A case is just a case. If some cases are marked by the presence of a morpheme while one case is marked by the absence of any morphemes, it's still a case—you just say "The ergative case is unmarked." I'm unaware of any case that is necessarily marked on a theoretical level. However, certain cases are certainly more likely to be unmarked than others in terms of what is attested in natural languages. Typically, in languages that have them, the ergative case is marked while the absolutive (or in tripartite languages, the intransitive) is unmarked.

This is why I said that your system is a peculiar tripartite system. But on a theoretical level, there's no reason I know of that the ergative case couldn't be the unmarked one.

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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 13:38 
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I think that Nias has a Marked-Absolutive system.

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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 15:42 
roman
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One of the few ergative langs in Africa too has ergative as the unmarked case, and in fact also uses it as the citation form.


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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 23:17 
greek
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So the why is the subject of a transitive verb (in my system) called ergative? Why isn't it nominative?

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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 23:29 
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Because "nominative" is a case used for the agents of transitive verbs and the subjects of intransitive verbs. "Ergative" is a case used for the agents of transitive verbs but not the subjects of intransitive verbs. Your case is used for the agents of transitive verbs but not the subjects of intransitive verbs. Therefore, it is an ergative case.

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PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 01:03 
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wakeagainstthefall wrote:
... it was nominative/accusative but now has a different case that is the subject of an intransitive verb.


Hi, Wake.

As someone whose conlang underwent exactly the same change some time ago, can I ask what sparked your decision to go tripartite? From what you've said so far, I'm guessing our reasons were similar.

Also, just to stick my oar in, the font of knowledge that is Wikipedia claims that 'intransitive' or 'absolutive' is the correct term for the case that inflects the subject of an intransitive verb. I use absolutive, because I think it sounds cooler.

As a side-note concerning the distinction between nominative and ergative, I found the images about halfway down this Wikipedia page very useful in coming to better understand the distinctions between absolutive, ergative, nominative, and accusative; maybe you'll find them useful.

I'd be interested to compare tripartite-related notes when you're done.

Dan

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PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 01:11 
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This thread is also helpful for understanding Morpho-Syntactic Alignment.

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PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 01:53 
greek
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Well, I didn't know what a tripartite system was until 2 days ago, so I kind of made it without knowing it. I also understood only a little bit about ergativity, but I thought it would make my language cool and unique, so I accidently ended up making an absolutive case and turned the nominative into an ergative case in an unintended tripartite system. But I like it. :)

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PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:07 
sinic
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wakeagainstthefall wrote:
Well, I didn't know what a tripartite system was until 2 days ago, so I kind of made it without knowing it. I also understood only a little bit about ergativity, but I thought it would make my language cool and unique, so I accidently ended up making an absolutive case and turned the nominative into an ergative case in an unintended tripartite system. But I like it. :)


Then my conclusions were wildly inaccurate. [:D]

I wonder if such a process would be likely to take place as a result of the natural evolution of a natlang. I'd not be surprised.

Dan

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PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 14:21 
greek
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What were your reasons for switching to a tripartite system?

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