Using IALs to represent ficlangs?
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Using IALs to represent ficlangs?
So if I wanted to write a fantasy novel and wanted to pepper it with words and phrases representing an in-setting language, would I be better served by copy-pasting phrases from an auxiliary or zonal conlang like Esperanto, Interslavic, Folkspraak, Lingua Franca Nova, Afrihili, Jennai, etc rather than just making up foreign sounding gibberish because I don't have the time or experience to invent a functional language?
Edit: Removed reference to natlangs.
Last edited by MoonRightRomantic on 18 Aug 2016 14:58, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
If you want to create an authentic world, and the speakers of said languages don't have cultures that are at least a little similar to those who speak the natlang, then I'd say no. I mean it's better than foreign sounding gibberish I guess but people are going to pick up on real languages and will be shattered either by mistakes in those phrases, inconsistency with the cultures of those who speak them, get angry if any inclement characters speak them, or a combination of all these things.MoonRightRomantic wrote:So if I wanted to write a fantasy novel and wanted to pepper it with words and phrases representing an in-setting language, would I be better served by copy-pasting phrases from a natlang, auxiliary or zonal conlang like Portuguese, Esperanto, Interslavic, etc rather than just making up foreign sounding gibberish because I don't have the time or experience to invent a functional language?
Also, honestly humans tune out languages that they don't understand so you don't really need to include any sort of foreign language in your novel if it is not especially centric to the whole thing. GRRM did not invent Valyrian, that was invented mainly for the show where such things needed to be heard. Neither Valyrian nor Dothraki existed before they had to be used in that show, save for personal names and one discrete word which had to be excused as a lexeme because it didn't fit well enough. Yet, the books are far older than the show- do you see my point here?
If you do need a language, you could always befriend a conlanger and persuade them to make one for you. Many of us have great fun making languages, and it's fairly easy to make basic grammars for theatrical purposes. I myself am already making a language for a friend's novel.
I do also, however, encourage you to try and learn some linguistics yourself. Not only will it open your eyes to the world of language but making them will be 100x easier (not an exaggeration), and also you'll probably find it fun. I mean it takes a while to learn and you said you don't have time but it's just something to consider. I know how it feels, honestly, because I tried to conlang before I learned linguistics and the abysmally sparce work I managed to do was so hard for me. Once I learned, that abysmally hard language turned out to be the easiest I work on, and has increased in size by several orders of magnitude. I rarely have to make new words now, and the world that I'm creating feels more complete to me.
Again, though, time is money, so I understand.
Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
Oh! There is one exception to the above response that I should mention: Consider dead natural languages. Not only do they sound pretty cool but people aren't as personally invested or connected to the cultures that spoke them because they're dead. Although you ought to avoid very well known ones like Classical Arabic, Ecc. Latin, or Bib. Hebrew, because you might offend people and get the same inauthenticity marker. Don't worry, there are plenty of well attested dead languages that aren't very public. I'm also sure you'll be able to find help with those as well.
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- cuneiform
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Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
Do International Auxiliary Languages like Esperanto count? If I had a fantasy counterpart culture modeled after a hodgepodge of Eastern Europe would it not make sense for them to speak Interslavic? Pseudo-germanic culture speaking Folkspraak or a pseudo-African culture speaking Afrihili?Isfendil wrote:Oh! There is one exception to the above response that I should mention: Consider dead natural languages. Not only do they sound pretty cool but people aren't as personally invested or connected to the cultures that spoke them because they're dead. Although you ought to avoid very well known ones like Classical Arabic, Ecc. Latin, or Bib. Hebrew, because you might offend people and get the same inauthenticity marker. Don't worry, there are plenty of well attested dead languages that aren't very public. I'm also sure you'll be able to find help with those as well.
People produce conlangs and leave them lying around. Would it not be cost-effective to piggyback from those efforts? Hasn't anyone invented a time-saving resource like "here are some pre-made conlangs for world builders"?
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Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
That would be cost-effective for world builders.MoonRightRomantic wrote:People produce conlangs and leave them lying around. Would it not be cost-effective to piggyback from those efforts? Hasn't anyone invented a time-saving resource like "here are some pre-made conlangs for world builders"?
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Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
I guess auxiliary international languages don't count in that respect. Also, normally there isn't leftover languages for world builders, but making simple grammars is so easy for conlangers that, again, I'm sure someone could make you something if you asked, and then later followed up with information and specifications. Like commissioning a piece of art but with much less effort and cost involved to the artist.MoonRightRomantic wrote:Do International Auxiliary Languages like Esperanto count? If I had a fantasy counterpart culture modeled after a hodgepodge of Eastern Europe would it not make sense for them to speak Interslavic? Pseudo-germanic culture speaking Folkspraak or a pseudo-African culture speaking Afrihili?Isfendil wrote:Oh! There is one exception to the above response that I should mention: Consider dead natural languages. Not only do they sound pretty cool but people aren't as personally invested or connected to the cultures that spoke them because they're dead. Although you ought to avoid very well known ones like Classical Arabic, Ecc. Latin, or Bib. Hebrew, because you might offend people and get the same inauthenticity marker. Don't worry, there are plenty of well attested dead languages that aren't very public. I'm also sure you'll be able to find help with those as well.
People produce conlangs and leave them lying around. Would it not be cost-effective to piggyback from those efforts? Hasn't anyone invented a time-saving resource like "here are some pre-made conlangs for world builders"?
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Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
hello (: can I make a language for your fictional world if you don't have time to make one?
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
Peterson says a lot of things that bug me. He uses the similarity of dracarys to the real word dragon as an excuse not to make it two morphemes for "dragon" and "fire", even though that was clearly the intention of Martin. Elsewhere he says that writing Valyrian in the Greek alphabet is bad-wrong-fun because Greece doesn't exist on Planetos, which is fallacious because by that logic humans shouldn't exist on Planetos either. The show invalidates his argument by using the Latin alphabet to represent Valyrian and Futhark for Old North even though Rome and Scandinavia don't exist on Planetos.Isfendil wrote:Also, honestly humans tune out languages that they don't understand so you don't really need to include any sort of foreign language in your novel if it is not especially centric to the whole thing. GRRM did not invent Valyrian, that was invented mainly for the show where such things needed to be heard. Neither Valyrian nor Dothraki existed before they had to be used in that show, save for personal names and one discrete word which had to be excused as a lexeme because it didn't fit well enough. Yet, the books are far older than the show- do you see my point here?
I would need multiple simplified creole languages for verisimilitude, one as the lingua franca for every empire. A Romance language, a Slavic language, a Germanic language, a Sub-Saharan African language, a Semitic language, an East Asian language, etc. That's why I'm interested in international auxiliary languages specifically: they are simplified creole intended as lingua franca.k1234567890y wrote:hello (: can I make a language for your fictional world if you don't have time to make one?
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Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
Why creoles specifically? Why not just make a language that looks and behaves like it belongs to one of those language areas?MoonRightRomantic wrote:I would need multiple simplified creole languages for verisimilitude, one as the lingua franca for every empire. A Romance language, a Slavic language, a Germanic language, a Sub-Saharan African language, a Semitic language, an East Asian language, etc. That's why I'm interested in international auxiliary languages specifically: they are simplified creole intended as lingua franca.k1234567890y wrote:hello (: can I make a language for your fictional world if you don't have time to make one?
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Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
Because the languages in the story would be creoles that became lingua franca and eventually supplanted the native languages, much like English originated as a creole of French and German with some Latin loanwords.Frislander wrote:Why creoles specifically? Why not just make a language that looks and behaves like it belongs to one of those language areas?MoonRightRomantic wrote:I would need multiple simplified creole languages for verisimilitude, one as the lingua franca for every empire. A Romance language, a Slavic language, a Germanic language, a Sub-Saharan African language, a Semitic language, an East Asian language, etc. That's why I'm interested in international auxiliary languages specifically: they are simplified creole intended as lingua franca.k1234567890y wrote:hello (: can I make a language for your fictional world if you don't have time to make one?
Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
English isn't a creole as so. Sure, there's some syncretism, but for the most part, it's Germanic, with the jargon coming from French and Latin.MoonRightRomantic wrote:Because the languages in the story would be creoles that became lingua franca and eventually supplanted the native languages, much like English originated as a creole of French and German with some Latin loanwords.Frislander wrote:Why creoles specifically? Why not just make a language that looks and behaves like it belongs to one of those language areas?MoonRightRomantic wrote:I would need multiple simplified creole languages for verisimilitude, one as the lingua franca for every empire. A Romance language, a Slavic language, a Germanic language, a Sub-Saharan African language, a Semitic language, an East Asian language, etc. That's why I'm interested in international auxiliary languages specifically: they are simplified creole intended as lingua franca.k1234567890y wrote:hello (: can I make a language for your fictional world if you don't have time to make one?
Spoiler:
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Re: Using IALs to represent ficlangs?
anyway, you need several languages that bear similarities to languages of our world, MoonRightRomantic? how about creating languages that sound Romance, Slavic, Germanic, etc. but their vocabularies are unrelated to real Romance languages, Slavic languages, Germanic languages, etc.?
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Using IALs to represent ficlangs?
Considering that at most a short proverb in a foreign language will ever appear in a novel (otherwise the readers would lose patience wading through gibberish), it would probably be easier to write gibberish that conforms to the phonology of the language whose appearance is desired.k1234567890y wrote:anyway, you need several languages that bear similarities to languages of our world, MoonRightRomantic? how about creating languages that sound Romance, Slavic, Germanic, etc. but their vocabularies are unrelated to real Romance languages, Slavic languages, Germanic languages, etc.?
For example, "cromulent" and "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" are not real words in English but sound like they could be. Unfortunately most fantasy writers don't bother making sure their foreign words are remotely consistent, and thus we get characters from the same village named "Vel Virazzo" and "Salon Corbeau."
Using a real auxlang at least would give it some exposure. More people speak Dothraki than Esperanto!
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Re: Using IALs to represent ficlangs?
How many people do you think speak IALs?!MoonRightRomantic wrote:Using a real auxlang at least would give it some exposure.
Don't you mean the other way round?MoonRightRomantic wrote:More people speak Dothraki than Esperanto!
Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
?MoonRightRomantic wrote:I would need multiple simplified creole languages for verisimilitude,
well, we can point you to the jobs board so you can commission someone to make them for you.one as the lingua franca for every empire. A Romance language, a Slavic language, a Germanic language, a Sub-Saharan African language, a Semitic language, an East Asian language, etc
no. no they are not.That's why I'm interested in international auxiliary languages specifically: they are simplified creole intended as lingua franca.
you might want to do some reading on creoles.
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799
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Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
Keenir wrote:?MoonRightRomantic wrote:I would need multiple simplified creole languages for verisimilitude,
Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
Our shared problems with David Peterson do not invalidate the argument that I made, if that is whatbyou were arguing against.MoonRightRomantic wrote:Peterson says a lot of things that bug me. He uses the similarity of dracarys to the real word dragon as an excuse not to make it two morphemes for "dragon" and "fire", even though that was clearly the intention of Martin. Elsewhere he says that writing Valyrian in the Greek alphabet is bad-wrong-fun because Greece doesn't exist on Planetos, which is fallacious because by that logic humans shouldn't exist on Planetos either. The show invalidates his argument by using the Latin alphabet to represent Valyrian and Futhark for Old North even though Rome and Scandinavia don't exist on Planetos.Isfendil wrote:Also, honestly humans tune out languages that they don't understand so you don't really need to include any sort of foreign language in your novel if it is not especially centric to the whole thing. GRRM did not invent Valyrian, that was invented mainly for the show where such things needed to be heard. Neither Valyrian nor Dothraki existed before they had to be used in that show, save for personal names and one discrete word which had to be excused as a lexeme because it didn't fit well enough. Yet, the books are far older than the show- do you see my point here?
I would need multiple simplified creole languages for verisimilitude, one as the lingua franca for every empire. A Romance language, a Slavic language, a Germanic language, a Sub-Saharan African language, a Semitic language, an East Asian language, etc. That's why I'm interested in international auxiliary languages specifically: they are simplified creole intended as lingua franca.k1234567890y wrote:hello (: can I make a language for your fictional world if you don't have time to make one?
Also I could help make a language for your novel as well. More heads ought to help.
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Re: Using IALs to represent ficlangs?
this can be the name of the village in two languages (:MoonRightRomantic wrote:Unfortunately most fantasy writers don't bother making sure their foreign words are remotely consistent, and thus we get characters from the same village named "Vel Virazzo" and "Salon Corbeau."
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Using natlangs and IALs to represent ficlangs?
I was agreeing with you. As I said, "at most a short proverb in a foreign language will ever appear in a novel (otherwise the readers would lose patience."Isfendil wrote:Our shared problems with David Peterson do not invalidate the argument that I made, if that is whatbyou were arguing against.MoonRightRomantic wrote:Peterson says a lot of things that bug me. He uses the similarity of dracarys to the real word dragon as an excuse not to make it two morphemes for "dragon" and "fire", even though that was clearly the intention of Martin. Elsewhere he says that writing Valyrian in the Greek alphabet is bad-wrong-fun because Greece doesn't exist on Planetos, which is fallacious because by that logic humans shouldn't exist on Planetos either. The show invalidates his argument by using the Latin alphabet to represent Valyrian and Futhark for Old North even though Rome and Scandinavia don't exist on Planetos.Isfendil wrote:Also, honestly humans tune out languages that they don't understand so you don't really need to include any sort of foreign language in your novel if it is not especially centric to the whole thing. GRRM did not invent Valyrian, that was invented mainly for the show where such things needed to be heard. Neither Valyrian nor Dothraki existed before they had to be used in that show, save for personal names and one discrete word which had to be excused as a lexeme because it didn't fit well enough. Yet, the books are far older than the show- do you see my point here?
I would need multiple simplified creole languages for verisimilitude, one as the lingua franca for every empire. A Romance language, a Slavic language, a Germanic language, a Sub-Saharan African language, a Semitic language, an East Asian language, etc. That's why I'm interested in international auxiliary languages specifically: they are simplified creole intended as lingua franca.k1234567890y wrote:hello (: can I make a language for your fictional world if you don't have time to make one?
Also I could help make a language for your novel as well. More heads ought to help.
Let's cut to the chase: I prefer to use an existing conlang rather than making one up. Which conlangs would be worth using? It is very difficult to find detailed conlangs because most of the index websites refer to empty entries.
Re: Using IALs to represent ficlangs?
For a fantasy novel, that would seem inappropriate. But for an alternate history, steampunk, or science-fiction novel, that might be acceptable. Most auxiliary languages seem too "modern", if that makes sense.MoonRightRomantic wrote:So if I wanted to write a fantasy novel and wanted to pepper it with words and phrases representing an in-setting language, would I be better served by copy-pasting phrases from an auxiliary or zonal conlang like Esperanto, Interslavic, Folkspraak, Lingua Franca Nova, Afrihili, Jennai, etc rather than just making up foreign sounding gibberish because I don't have the time or experience to invent a functional language?
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