Phonemes

If you're new to these arts, this is the place to ask "stupid" questions and get directions!
Post Reply
Egoquosamopilas
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 7
Joined: 19 May 2017 19:48

Phonemes

Post by Egoquosamopilas »

I was reading viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6208 and it got me thinking of how realistic the phonemes of my conlang Jbiituani are and if there's any way that I could improve it

Vowls: a i u

Consonants: m b n t d s z ɬ l j k g x ɣ χ ʁ h ʤ w
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Phonemes

Post by sangi39 »

Egoquosamopilas wrote:I was reading viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6208 and it got me thinking of how realistic the phonemes of my conlang Jbiituani are and if there's any way that I could improve it

Vowls: a i u

Consonants: m b n t d s z ɬ l j k g x ɣ χ ʁ h ʤ w

Code: Select all

  t     k 
b d   ʤ g 
m n
  s ɬ     x χ h 
  z       ɣ ʁ 
w   l j 
Seems reasonable enough. Actually looks somewhat like Inuktitut, although that has /q/ instead of /χ/

On the note of Inuktitut, initially, my only real issue was /ʤ/, but apparently the Natsilingmiutut dialect has /ɟ/, so close enough.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Phonemes

Post by qwed117 »

(Also, imo, seems pretty similar to Arabic, which I don't think has tʃ, but has d͡ʒ)
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Phonemes

Post by sangi39 »

qwed117 wrote:(Also, imo, seems pretty similar to Arabic, which I don't think has tʃ, but has d͡ʒ)
Which I always found interesting. IIRC, Arabic /dʒ/ derives from an older /g/, just fronting it, then shifting to an affricate, but that process didn't affect Old Arabic /k/, except in a few dialects like Iraqi Arabic. The universal fronting of Old Arabic /g/ must have happened before the dialectal fronting of Old Arabic /k/ and that's interesting as hell! [:D]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
Isfendil
greek
greek
Posts: 668
Joined: 19 Feb 2016 03:47

Re: Phonemes

Post by Isfendil »

sangi39 wrote:
qwed117 wrote:(Also, imo, seems pretty similar to Arabic, which I don't think has tʃ, but has d͡ʒ)
Which I always found interesting. IIRC, Arabic /dʒ/ derives from an older /g/, just fronting it, then shifting to an affricate, but that process didn't affect Old Arabic /k/, except in a few dialects like Iraqi Arabic. The universal fronting of Old Arabic /g/ must have happened before the dialectal fronting of Old Arabic /k/ and that's interesting as hell! [:D]
Just a few clarifications- the fronting of k is a conditioned change not an unconditional one. Furthermore, the dialect of Cairo preserves the original sound of /g/ unconditionally. This is because the dialects are not direct descendants of classical arabic but rather mixed languages, descended from divergent dialects that were held to a conservative form by the common knowledge of the classical language barring certain exceptional areas such as the western half of North Africa (this is not because of its nature as a frontier- there are farther places such as sudan with more conservative dialects).

Generally the reason why this weird stuff happens to semitic languages is because the nature of the root system can very easily cause conditional changes to become unconditional due to analogy, as more and more stems of a root are affected. This is also why not only arabic but most arabian langs have a /b/ but no /f/ (then this assymetry spread areally).
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Phonemes

Post by sangi39 »

Isfendil wrote:
sangi39 wrote:
qwed117 wrote:(Also, imo, seems pretty similar to Arabic, which I don't think has tʃ, but has d͡ʒ)
Which I always found interesting. IIRC, Arabic /dʒ/ derives from an older /g/, just fronting it, then shifting to an affricate, but that process didn't affect Old Arabic /k/, except in a few dialects like Iraqi Arabic. The universal fronting of Old Arabic /g/ must have happened before the dialectal fronting of Old Arabic /k/ and that's interesting as hell! [:D]
Just a few clarifications- the fronting of k is a conditioned change not an unconditional one. Furthermore, the dialect of Cairo preserves the original sound of /g/ unconditionally. This is because the dialects are not direct descendants of classical arabic but rather mixed languages, descended from divergent dialects that were held to a conservative form by the common knowledge of the classical language barring certain exceptional areas such as the western half of North Africa (this is not because of its nature as a frontier- there are farther places such as sudan with more conservative dialects).
Thaaaank you! [:D] I thought there was a dialect of Arabic that preserved /g/, but I couldn't for the life me if a) it existed at all and b) which dialect it was if it did exist.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Davush
greek
greek
Posts: 672
Joined: 10 Jan 2015 14:10

Re: Phonemes

Post by Davush »

Some Yemeni dialects have /ɟ/ instead of /g/ - I can’t remember if this was supposed to be the earlier form but Yemeni has had /g/ for /q/ for a long time, so much so that some reciters of the Quran always use /g/. Interestingly Gulf dialects have /q/ > /g/ > /dʒ/ near front vowels e.g. qariib becomes jriib, muqaabil is mjaabil etc. Sharjah in the UAE is actually Shaariqah.
User avatar
Xonen
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1080
Joined: 16 May 2010 00:25

Re: Phonemes

Post by Xonen »

Isfendil wrote: 08 Nov 2017 16:29Generally the reason why this weird stuff happens to semitic languages is because the nature of the root system can very easily cause conditional changes to become unconditional due to analogy, as more and more stems of a root are affected. This is also why not only arabic but most arabian langs have a /b/ but no /f/ (then this assymetry spread areally).
I'm guessing you mean /b/ but no /p/? In any case, that's a good explanation for the fronting of /g/, but I'm less sure about the labials. Lenition of /p/ to a fricative (while /b/ remains unaffected) seems to be a fairly common sound change and not really dependent on other features of the language. For example, it's taken place in Japanese, which is about as far from triconsonantal root systems as you can get.
Post Reply