Kala grammar page

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Imralu
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by Imralu »

na'itla ano anyatli ma na'eta ke nyelo homatli
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by masako »

na'etla tauankotli

ta ke nahokala unyani

ya imyalo
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by Khemehekis »

masako wrote:This thread is about Kala grammar. Thank you.
And I see you even took the links to the other Kala pages out of your OP. 8(
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by Imralu »

masako wrote:ta ke nahokala unyani
na hasunko
Kala phonotactics does not allow the onsets of adjacent syllables to be identical, nor both to be labialized or palatalized. (There are a few exceptions to this, such as tata for the informal/familiar form of father, etc.)
I like this. I have a similar rule for myself for Ngolu. I haven't written it down and formalised it though, and I break it for reduplication (nini 'be a mother', nana 'be a father', mama 'be a breast, etc.)
tlakaha ha’o nisin – The three large western men…
Why is it nisin and not simply nisi. Is that the adverb suffix -n? "man-large three west-ly"?
mita – dog / tlimita – pack of dogs
yama – mountain / tliyamalo – mountain range
tsaka – house / tlitsaka – neighborhood
puku – clothing / tlipuku – wardrobe
Why does tliyamalo have both the collective and plural affixes? Would tlimitam mean "packs of dogs" and tliyamalo "mountain ranges"?
-u – double for redundant syllable
What does that mean?
naho – rule; law, kala – speak; language / nahoakala – grammar
Should that be nahokala as you wrote to me in your post here?

I like your table of determiners. It's a nice mix of regularity and irregularity.
na – first person (speaker)
All the best languages have na as a first person pronoun. :-)
ha – third person [does not distinguish gender]
kam – 3PL – They
naka, tlaka – the woman, the man
I don't know how much into diachronics you are, but it kind of seems like ka might have basically been the word for "person" and it softened to ha for use as the 3s pronoun. Was this intentional?
The passive is formed by adding the prefix e- to pronouns or the particle ke before nouns to mark them as the patient or object of the verb.
I love this. I found it natural to do this in Esperanto, to simply put the accusative -n on things and drop the nominative, but people have had mixed reactions to it. I do this in Ngolu too - I kill = I kill. Me kill = I am killed.
tsaka kapi – house be.ugly – ugly house
Can this also be a sentence "The house is ugly" or would that have to be

1) tsaka kapi a
2) tsaka tla kapi
3) tsaka ke kapi

?
Any verb in Kala can be used as an adverb by adding the suffix –n.
Does this even work for words where the last syllable begins with n? Like, is "healthily" sanan?

I think generally, this is quite clear. I'm still a bit unclear about when ke should be used though. I think more example sentences would be good, for the whole grammar in general - but that's just because I love example sentences.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by masako »

Imralu wrote:Why is it nisin and not simply nisi. Is that the adverb suffix -n? "man-large three west-ly"?
"It correlates to the English endings –ly, -ish, -ity, -ous, -ness, -ship, etc."

So, think "west-ernly"...
Why does tliyamalo have both the collective and plural affixes?
It's supposed to convey "collection of mountains", but yeah, it might mean "mountain ranges"...
Would tlimitam mean "packs of dogs"
Yeah. It would.
"-u – double for redundant syllable" What does that mean?
OK, this is one of my favorite features for Kala. Let's do this:

ha tana - 3SG fight - She fights.

What if we wanna say she fights in a "feminine" way...?

That would be: ha tana'u - 3SG fight-FEM - She fights girly.

This is because reduplication is not allowed phonotactically...in the above -u is standing in for -na. This rule applies to any syllable that might be reduplicated.
Should that be nahokala as you wrote to me in your post here?
Yes. Damnit.
I don't know how much into diachronics you are, but it kind of seems like ka might have basically been the word for "person" and it softened to ha for use as the 3s pronoun. Was this intentional?
Yes and no. I wasn't doing "diachronics" - which I am also clueless about - I was just trying to loosely relate similar syllables within semantic fields...this is not something I have been consistent with.
tsaka kapihouse be.ugly – ugly house > Can this also be a sentence "The house is ugly" or would that have to be
Yes. That could be a sentence.
Does this even work for words where the last syllable begins with n? Like, is "healthily" sanan?
Yes. the n-n syllable is the one that I have accepted as inevitable. Just look at the the reciprocal 1pl nanku...one I heard myself say it out loud, I thought, yeah, I'm gonna let nan, nen, nin, etc. show up whenever.
I'm still a bit unclear about when ke should be used though.
I'm still working on that.

Its primary function is to mark the DO, or just the O. It can be used in comparisons, and as a nominalizer. So, yeah, it can be confusing even for me.
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by Incorruptus »

The funny thing is, I have a language of similar syllable structure, for which I made a Korean variation as a script.

In the end, I like Kala and liked Qatama.
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by masako »

OK. Thanks. Do you have any comments about the grammar?

So, who's downloaded the PDF?
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by Khemehekis »

How would you say a sentence like "I consider him stupid", or "I painted my nails blue"?
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by masako »

Well, those are translations, not directly questions about grammar, but:

na'eha kue paka omo
1SG-P.3SG like be.foolish consider
I consider him stupid

na nehem nayo nilamyaye
1SG nail-PL 1sg-POSS be.blue-CAUS-PST
I painted my nails blue
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by Khemehekis »

Thanks for answering, but . . .
masako wrote:Well, those are translations, not directly questions about grammar,
How to say sentences like those is an important aspect of grammar, and one that too many grammar-writers overlook. My Kankonian grammar, for example, gives information on the proper syntax to use to express sentences like the following:
When a verb takes two objects, one of which is transformed into the other, use "ad" (to) before the nominal into which something is transformed and place it before the direct object:

Mahan ar hazios ad zwidan wan?

Do? you make+FUTURE to prince him
Are you going to make him a prince?

When a verb takes a direct object and an adjective, and the adjective describes the transformation of the nominal, place "ad" before the adjective and then state the direct object:

Yahalukes ad ighitu wowum hazias ad tzareimin is.
light+PLURAL to traffic blue make+PRESENT to angry me
Blue traffic lights make me angry.

(On Kankonia, blue traffic lights indicate stop, burgundy prepare to stop and orange go.)

Is retelos ad kiul shakti na is.
I paint+FUTURE to white house of me
I will paint my house white.

Devo spladiken khelam ad rimi *ine na wan.
Devo decide+PAST grow to long hair of him
Devo decided to grow his hair long.

When a verb takes two objects and rather than one being transformed into the other, one object is considered as being the other, use the non-transformative connective "shil" (as) rather than "ad":

Helemas ad Janeqavansi esthias shil Janeqa wan.
mother to Janeqavansi call+PRESENT as Janeqa him
Janeqavansi's mother calls him Janeqa.

When a verb takes a direct object and a non-transformative adjective, place "shil" before the adjective and then state the direct object:

Is shiangas shil albevik wan.
I consider+PRESENT as stupid him
I consider him stupid.

Is poiletzas shil stoern holobwas.
I find+PRESENT as difficult astronomy
I find astronomy difficult.

"Shil" can also be used with verbs that are not linking verbs but take an adjective:

Eren halites zeratzen shil vainatz.
they_say everyone be_born+PAST as free
They say everyone was born free.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 87,413 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by DesEsseintes »

Khemehekis wrote:How to say sentences like those is an important aspect of grammar
[+1]
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by masako »

DesEsseintes wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:How to say sentences like those is an important aspect of grammar
[+1]
Perhaps, but you could have asked:

"How do you form the causative?" or "How are serial verbs dealt with?"

Those would be questions about grammar rather than requests for translations. I don't mind translating into Kala...it's something I enjoy, but what I've been asking for is feedback on the posted grammar.
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by Xing »

I'm interested in your reflexive constructions. Can the reflexive affix - ’i - only refer back to the subject of a sentence? Or can it be attached to any constituent? Must it refer back to something in the same clause? (Since it's presented as an affix, that seems like a plausible assumption, but I'm still curious if there are ways to form reflexive multi-clause constructions...)
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by masako »

Xing wrote:I'm interested in your reflexive constructions. Can the reflexive affix - ’i - only refer back to the subject of a sentence? Or can it be attached to any constituent? Must it refer back to something in the same clause? (Since it's presented as an affix, that seems like a plausible assumption, but I'm still curious if there are ways to form reflexive multi-clause constructions...)
Well, the -'i affix is restricted to pronouns...that is, to indicate reflexiveness elsewhere, the suffix -ki (both coming from ki meaning self; energy; ego) is used.

na'i tlela
1SG-REFL bathe
I bathe myself.

mitam nulaki
dog-PL lick-REFL
Dogs lick themselves.

or...

mitaki nula
dog-REFL lick
A dog licks himself.

Does that help?
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by Xing »

masako wrote:
Xing wrote:I'm interested in your reflexive constructions. Can the reflexive affix - ’i - only refer back to the subject of a sentence? Or can it be attached to any constituent? Must it refer back to something in the same clause? (Since it's presented as an affix, that seems like a plausible assumption, but I'm still curious if there are ways to form reflexive multi-clause constructions...)
Well, the -'i affix is restricted to pronouns...that is, to indicate reflexiveness elsewhere, the suffix -ki (both coming from ki meaning self; energy; ego) is used.

na'i tlela
1SG-REFL bathe
I bathe myself.

mitam nulaki
dog-PL lick-REFL
Dogs lick themselves.

or...

mitaki nula
dog-REFL lick
A dog licks himself.

Does that help?
Interesting, but not exactly what I was asking about. The samples are all about an object/patient reflexive morpheme referring back to the subject in the same clause. What was wondering was if this is the only case in which a reflexive morpheme can be used in Kala.

*Can a reflexive morpheme stand for something other than a (direct) object - say, a recipient, a possessor, or some kind of oblique argument? (Or even perhaps a subject in an embedded clause??)
*Can a reflexive morpheme refer back to something other than a subject?
*Can a reflexive morpheme refer back to something in another clause? (Like, a reflexive morpheme in an embedded clause referring back to something in the matrix clause?)
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by masako »

You're using terminology that I'm not entirely familiar with, but, in short, no, the reflexive is only used to refer to a subject.
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by masako »

I guess there were complaints about me bumping this thread the way I do.

Protip: NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO READ THIS OR ANY OTHER THREAD. IF YOU DO NOT LIKE CONTENT LOOK AWAY. IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THREAD AUTHOR, LOOK AWAY. IT'S REALLY THAT SIMPLE.

Thanks, have a nice day.
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by Salmoneus »

masako wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:How to say sentences like those is an important aspect of grammar
[+1]
Perhaps, but you could have asked:

"How do you form the causative?" or "How are serial verbs dealt with?"
The reason that wouldn't have been as useful is that it presupposes certain categories within your grammar, and where they might be used. For instance, in English neither of those sentences requires either a serial verb or a causative, so Khemehekis wouldn't have known that they would be used in Kala until he asked the question.

When we focus on 'grammar' in the sense of 'tell me about [grammatical category label]', it can leave us following our L1 (/L2 etc) habits, and it can also lead us to miss out bits that aren't so easily described. It's much more useful to think of grammar in the sense of 'how do you do [function]?'.
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by masako »

Salmoneus wrote:Khemehekis wouldn't have known that they would be used in Kala until he asked the question.
Yeah, he would've had he read the grammar thoroughly.
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Re: Kala grammar page

Post by Khemehekis »

masako wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:Khemehekis wouldn't have known that they would be used in Kala until he asked the question.
Yeah, he would've had he read the grammar thoroughly.
I did read the grammar thoroughly. Although it mentioned how to form causatives and how to form serial verbs, it did not explain that said structures would be used to translate these kinds of sentences.
Salmoneus wrote:The reason that wouldn't have been as useful is that it presupposes certain categories within your grammar, and where they might be used. For instance, in English neither of those sentences requires either a serial verb or a causative, so Khemehekis wouldn't have known that they would be used in Kala until he asked the question.

When we focus on 'grammar' in the sense of 'tell me about [grammatical category label]', it can leave us following our L1 (/L2 etc) habits, and it can also lead us to miss out bits that aren't so easily described. It's much more useful to think of grammar in the sense of 'how do you do [function]?'.
[+1]

Or, to put things in perspective:

Suppose a Kankonian speaker was just beginning to learn English and wanted to learn how to say sentences like "Is retelos ad kiul shakti na is" and "Is shiangas shil albevik wan". Now suppose that instead of asking how those particular sentences would be spoken, he asked how to say ad and shil in English, and was told they were "to" and "as" respectively. He'd end up saying things in English like "I will paint to white my house" and "I consider as stupid him". See the problem?
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 87,413 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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