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PostPosted: Thu 07 Sep 2017, 01:42 
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic

Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2016, 00:16
Posts: 62
Location: The Observable Universe
Frislander wrote:
Osia wrote:
Frislander wrote:
/b t t͡ʃ ʔ/
/ⁿd~n/
/s h/
/ɾ j/

The prenasalised stop is realised as a plain nasal before nasal vowels.

/i u/
/ẽ õ/
/a ɒ/
/aɪ̯ ɒʊ̯/

Vowels may occur in one of four tones: mid, high, low/breathy and creaky.

Sylable structure is CV.


Ooh! I like this, especially the stop series and tones. Can we see some random words to get a feel of it?


OK, how about [t͡ʃáɾā ʔi̤bɒ̰ʊ̯tẽ́ ⁿdānõ̰sṳjẽ́hāɪ̯ʔā]

(I just came up with that randomly because trying to get a word-generator to do it would be just too much work. I'd probably romanise it something like <ca'ra ‘ihbooute ndanõõsuhye'hai‘a> or something like that (I leave the question of how best to represent the tones to you).


I'd romanize it /á a à ä/, but that's just me. So, <cá'ra 'ïbòòùté ndanõ̀õ̀süjéhai'a>.

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PostPosted: Thu 07 Sep 2017, 08:24 
cleardarkness
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Oneida with bilabials instead of velars

Thrice Xandvii recently posted a question about languages without /k/, which got me thinking what an Iroquoian language with bilabials instead of velars would look like. So I substituted /p m/ for /k w/ to see what would happen:

/m n/ m n
/p t ʔ/ p t ʔ
/s h/ s h
/l j/ l y

/a e i o ũ ə̃/ a e i o u ʌ

And here is a sample:

Input

Akwe·kú úskah tsiʔ ʌtwahweʔnu·ní· yukwaʔnikúhla. Tʌyethinuhela·tú kayé niyukwé·take (or nihʌnukwé·take) tehutlihwatenyá·thaʔ tsiʔ she·kú yukhiʔnikú·lale (or yukhiʔnikuhlatáti). Ta tho niyohtúhak yukwaʔnikúhla.

Output

Apme·pú úspah tsiʔ ʌtmahmeʔnu·ní· yupmaʔnipúhla. Tʌyethinuhela·tú payé niyupmé·tape (or nihʌnupmé·tape) tehutlihmatenyá·thaʔ tsiʔ she·pú yuphiʔnipú·lale (or yuphiʔnipuhlatáti). Ta tho niyohtúhap yupmaʔnipúhla.

I like the frequent pm clusters that replace kw.

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PostPosted: Thu 07 Sep 2017, 11:41 
darkness
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This is West Chorchan.

/m n ŋ/ m n ng
/p t t͡ʃ k/ p t tš k
/b d d͡ʒ ɡ/ b d dž g
/f s ʃ x/ f s š x
/v z ʒ/ v z ž
/w r l j/ w r l y

    - Postalveolar consonants are pronounced with slight labialization.
    - The voiced velar stop /ɡ/ is pronounced [ʝ] in front of /i e/.
    - The rhotic consonant is normally realized as alveolar [ɹ]. It is pronounced as a trilled [r] in word-initial position, and as [ɹ̠ʷ] next to a labial or a postalveolar consonant.
    - The consonants /v/ and /w/ merge to [w] in front of a rounded vowel. /f/ is also pronounced [ɸ] in this position.
    - If a consonant cluster is made up of a nasal consonant and any other consonant, the nasal assimilates in place of articulation to that consonant. The /nj/ cluster is pronounced [ɲ].
    - Labial and postalveolar consonants may cause front vowels next to them to retract. The retraction always happens next to a postalveolar consonant. Next to a labial consonant, it is sporadic and retracted allophones are in free variation with the ordinary ones.

/ʘ ǀ ǂ ǃ/ ʘ ǀ ǂ ʗ
/ʘʰ ǀʰ ǂʰ ǃʰ/ ʘʰ ǀʰ ǂʰ ʗʰ
/ᵑʘ ᵑǀ ᵑǂ ᵑǃ/ ᵑʘ ᵑǀ ᵑǂ ᵑʗ

    - Labial and alveolar clicks may also cause front vowels next to them to retract.
    - Clicks are very rarely found in positions other than word-initially.

/a e i o u/ a e ı o u

    - All vowels can occur with high tone, which is indicated with an acute accent.
    - Retracted front vowels are realized [ə̯i ~ ɪ ə̯e ~ ɔ]. The diphthong pronunciation is considerably more common for vowels in open syllables.
    - Vowels may be pronounced with advanced tongue root in front of voiced stops and [l].
    - Attested diphthongs are /aɪ̯ aʊ̯ eɪ̯ oɪ̯ oʊ̯/ ay aw ey oy ow, pronounced [aɪ̯ æʊ̯ eɪ̯ ɒɪ̯ oʊ̯].
    - There is a complex accent system that arises out of interplay of stress and vowel length. Accent is very variable and affected by prosody as well.

The syllable structure is C(C)(C)V(C)(C). Unlike standard Chorchan, West Chorchan has simplified many consonant clusters and added word-initial consonants to words beginning with a vowel. Remaining consonant clusters in syllable onset consist of one of /m n ŋ p t t͡ʃ k b d d͡ʒ ɡ f/ followed by one of /w r j/. Other attested clusters are /st ʃt sk ʃk/, which again may be followed by one of /w r j/.

Below is a short wordlist. All words are compared with their Chorchan counterparts.

    ǂʰozı 'sun', Ch. ešozı (PN *akıate)
    tšyážu 'duck', Ch. tsyážu (PN *kyıáčo)
    ᵑǀán 'stone', Ch. antšán (PN *nukén)
    ʘer 'market', Ch. dwı (PN *pótıra)
    yažane 'see', Ch. ažene (PN *ásyınes)
    ʗorn, Ch. ktšorn (PN *kıčornu)


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PostPosted: Fri 08 Sep 2017, 16:55 
sinic
sinic

Joined: Tue 09 Oct 2012, 02:37
Posts: 218
Consonants
Nasals: /m mʷ n ɲ/ <m m̯ n ń>
Plain Stops: /p pʷ t ts c k kʷ/ <p p̑ t c ḱ k k̯>
Asp. Stops: /pʰ pʷʰ tʰ tsʰ cʰ kʰ kʷʰ/ <pʰ p̑ʰ tʰ cʰ ḱʰ kʰ k̯ʰ>
Voiced Stops: /b bʷ d dz ɟ g gʷ/<b b̯ d dz ǵ g g̑>
Fricatives: /s x xʷ h/ <s x x̯ h>
Laterals: /l ʎ/ <l ly>
Resonants: /r j ɰ w/ <r y w w̯>

Vowels
Short Vowels: /ɪ ɛ a o/ <i e a o>
Long Vowels: /iː eː aː oː/ <ī ē ā ō>
Diphthongs: /ai aːi eo eːo/ <ai āi eo ēo>

Syllabicity
Onset Clusters:
/m/+/p pʷ pʰ pʷʰ b bʷ/
/n/+/t tʰ d/
/s/+/c k kʷ cʰ kʰ kʷʰ sx sxʷ sw/
/p k pʰ kʰ b g/ + /r l/

Coda Clusters:
/l/+/t tʰ d/
/r/+/p t c k pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ b d ɟ g/

In word-final conditions, where a voiced coda cluster (i.e. /rg/) exists, an epenthetic schwa often occurs after the cluster.

/m n s l r/ can form geminates in medial position.

The syllable structure only allows for either onset clusters OR for coda clusters, but never both.

Some words to illustrate:
/pʷɛlaː/ p̑elā "ocean; sea; a body of water which one cannot see across and/or which is subject to tides"
/kʰodzɛs/ kʰodzes "muck, mud, (colloquially) shit"
/bʷai/ b̯ai "wind; a gust of wind; a force; (metaphorical extension) the drive or volition of an individual or group"
/ɟeogaː/ ǵeogā "tragedy; an awful incident; an incident of severe maiming or death"
/riː/ rī "light; brightness; white"
/haː/ hā "dark; darkness; black"
/ndɛro/ ndero "strength; fortitude; power"


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PostPosted: Sat 09 Sep 2017, 00:50 
sinic
sinic

Joined: Wed 20 Jul 2016, 23:16
Posts: 358
Inspired (heavily) by Thai. Except for the vowels... which instead of tone is just busy. I am not sure if I want to include ɯː and ɤː as I only wanted the "corners" to have long distinctions.

/m n ŋ/
/p pʰ b tʰ t d k kʰ ʔ/
/tɬ tɬʰ tɕ tɕʰ/
/f s h/
/l L/
/j w/

/i iː ɯ ɯː u uː/
/e ẽ ɤ ɤː o õ/
/a aː ã/
/eu oi ai au/

Phonotactics:
CVN
C: any consonant
V: Any vowel
N: /m n ŋ p t k l L ʔ/
Plosives are unreleased in coda. /l L/ become voiceless fricative equivalents word finally only.

Edit: Perhaps a simpler variation would be where e o and a simply become nasalised before a word final nasal consonant in line with the lateral behaviour.


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PostPosted: Sat 09 Sep 2017, 02:38 
darkness
darkness
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DesEsseintes wrote:
Oneida with bilabials instead of velars

Thrice Xandvii recently posted a question about languages without /k/, which got me thinking what an Iroquoian language with bilabials instead of velars would look like.

[...]
Glad I could accidentally inspire you with an idea that went no where for me!

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PostPosted: Sun 10 Sep 2017, 00:51 
mayan
mayan

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Time for some Blackfoot on drugs! (or alternatively, the phonology I'd use if I wanted to go back to Aikuu someday).

/t k/
/ts ks/
/s h/
/m n ɣ/

/i a o/ with either a high or a low tone.

/ɣ/ is really a phonological convenience, since it it never realised as such. It is realised as zero word-intially, between two identical vowels and after /a/, as /w/ after /o/ before /a i/, and as /j/ when after /i/ before /a o/. When it occurs in coda position it is realised as lengthening of the preceding vowel (this differs in morphophonological treatment from long vowels from intervocalic /ɣ/), and when it occurs after a consonant due to morphophonological processes it is deleted. These reflexes are summarised in the table below. Furthermore plain /t/ is not found before /i/, instead being merged with /ts/ as [t͡s].

Code:
  0  a   i   o
0 -  a   i   o
a aa aa  ai  ao
i ii ija ii  ijo
o oo owa owi oo


Syllable structure is CV(C), where any consonant may appear in either the onset or the coda. Furthermore all words are required to end with a vowel.

Edit: EDIT: rethought how /ɣ/ works and one or two other minor details.

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Last edited by Frislander on Sun 10 Sep 2017, 11:47, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 10 Sep 2017, 02:40 
sinic
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An idea i had,

/n/
/t k q/
/t͡s t͡ʃ/
/ɸ θ/
/t͡ɬ d͡ɮ/

/ɪ ʏ ɯ̽ ʊ/
/a æ ɑ/

And a potential orthography,

/n t k q/
/c č/
/f fh/
/ƛ λ/

/i ǔ u ǒ/
/a ǎ o/

Syllable structure is (C)(F)V(C)

Some examples,

Fhǔλǒ
čfǎ
ti
tfhinu
ƛaqǒ

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PostPosted: Sun 10 Sep 2017, 05:23 
cuneiform
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Joined: Sat 21 Jul 2012, 07:01
Posts: 92
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This is just some random thing I came up with a few years ago and suddenly remembered

/n/
/t k͜s k/
/ɸ s h/
/j/

/a i u o/

/ɸ/ is [β] postvocalically

(C)V(F)

F can be /ɸ h j/


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PostPosted: Sun 10 Sep 2017, 11:04 
cleardarkness
cleardarkness

Joined: Sun 31 Mar 2013, 12:16
Posts: 4309
Porphyrogenitos wrote:
This is just some random thing I came up with a few years ago and suddenly remembered

/n/
/t k͜s k/
/ɸ s h/
/j/

/a i u o/

/ɸ/ is [β] postvocalically

(C)V(F)

F can be /ɸ h j/

Quite neat! But k͜s without t͡s? I just know I couldn't...

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PostPosted: Sun 10 Sep 2017, 21:58 
hieroglyphic
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Posts: 62
Location: The Observable Universe
A Phonology I thought up of based on a gleb seed.

/p t tʃ k q/
/pʰ tʰ tʃʰ kʰ qʰ/
/ɸ s ʃ x χ/
/m n l ɲ ŋ/
/m n̥ ɬ ɲ̥ ŋ̥/

/i e ɛ æ ɑ o u ɨ ɪˤ ʊˤ oˤ aˤ/

There is progressive harmony between velars and uvulars, and the vowels /i ɨ e ɛ æ ɑ o u/ and /ɪˤ ɪˤ ɪˤ aˤ aˤ aˤ oˤ ʊˤ/.

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PostPosted: Tue 12 Sep 2017, 07:15 
darkness
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Wasn't sure precisely where to ask this, so I figured here was as good as anywhere else.

So... I've been having trouble with the consonant clusters and general phonotactics for this language I've been developing, below is the phonology and a brief blurb about the general phonotactics.

Image

I know it doesn't tell much, but a good chunk of the allophony I have laid out might change anyway, so I didn't include it. My main issue with having (C)(R,N,F)V(P,N) be the basic structure is my strong displeasure with /z/ ending up in clusters (to where I might delete it anyway as it is the only sibilant fricative) and also the use of <j> in clusters. I find I have difficulty figuring out how to simplify those clusters and/or pronounce them so that something distinguishable comes out of the various combinations. I am also toying with the idea of allowing consonant length to be a thing with at the very least the nasals. (Should you want to peruse the page to see how things currently lie: http://www.frathwiki.com/Vung_D%C3%A1c_T%C3%B5)

Do folks have suggestions for me?

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PostPosted: Tue 12 Sep 2017, 19:58 
mayan
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/t t͡ʃ k q/ <t c k q>
/z j ɣ ʁ/ <s y g r>
/n/ <n>

/i a u/ <i a u> in long and short.

Syllable structure is (C)V(C), where V(C) syllables may only appear word-initially and only stops and /n/ may appear as codas underlyingly, however when the stops come into contact with the voiced fricatives, the stops lenite to their voiced counterparts (i.e. /t t͡ʃ k q/ become /z j ɣ ʁ/ respectively). Additionally, when a velar and a uvular consonant come together, the velar consonant assimilates to the uvular one, and when a geminate voiced fricative would occur it is phonetically voiceless.

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Sep 2017, 19:11 
hieroglyphic
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Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2016, 00:16
Posts: 62
Location: The Observable Universe
A phonology for an language I've been thinking of developing inspired by Iroquoian and Algonquin languages, and Frislander's Kaita.

/t kʲ kʷ ʔ/ <t c q ʔ>
/n~ɾ~l j w h/ <n~r~l j w h>

/a e i ɨ u~o/ <a e i y u~o>
/ ̃/ <V̨>

/˥ ˧ ˩ ˨˥ ˥˩ ˨˥˧/ <V́ V V̀ V̌ V̂ Ṽ>

CV(V)(R)

R=l, j, w

Notes:
/t/ is dental, not alveolar.
/kʲ/ can range from [ts] to [tɕ] to [c] to [k].
Consonants are grouped into stops {t kʲ kʷ ʔ} and continuants {n~ɾ~l j w h}.
Tones are grouped into high {˥ ˧ ˥˩} and low {˨˥ ˩ ˨˥˧}, where low are derived from initial voiced consonants, and {˥~˨˥ ˧~˩ ˥˩~˨˥˧} are derived from coda {ʔ ∅ h}.

Allophony:
/t/ is /s~ɕ/ before /i/.
/kʲ/ depalatalizes before /i/, but /kʷ/ and /w/ lowers /u/ to [o].
/t kʲ kʷ/ remain devoiced even word medially.
/h/ may become [ʕ] between two vowels.
/t kʲ kʷ/ can be geminated to /t.t k.kʲ k.kʷ/
/j/ becomes /ʝ/ adjacent to /i/, while it palatalizes /ɨ/ to /i/.
/n~ɾ~l/ is realized as /ɾ/ word intially and /l/ word medially next to oral vowels, and /n/ adjacent to nasal vowels.

EDIT: How about some tone sandhi?

˥ ˩ ˥ > ˥ ˧ ˥
˩ ˥ ˩ > ˩ ˧ ˩
˥ ˩ # > ˥ ˥˩ #
˩ ˥ # > ˩ ˩˥ #
˩˥ ˩˥ > ˩˥ ˧˦˧
˥˩ ˥˩ > ˥˩ ˧˦˧

where # indicates the end of a phrase

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Last edited by Osia on Wed 13 Sep 2017, 22:47, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Sep 2017, 19:49 
mongolian
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Joined: Tue 14 Aug 2012, 18:32
Posts: 3810
Thrice Xandvii wrote:
Wasn't sure precisely where to ask this, so I figured here was as good as anywhere else.

So... I've been having trouble with the consonant clusters and general phonotactics for this language I've been developing, below is the phonology and a brief blurb about the general phonotactics.

Image

I know it doesn't tell much, but a good chunk of the allophony I have laid out might change anyway, so I didn't include it. My main issue with having (C)(R,N,F)V(P,N) be the basic structure is my strong displeasure with /z/ ending up in clusters (to where I might delete it anyway as it is the only sibilant fricative) and also the use of <j> in clusters. I find I have difficulty figuring out how to simplify those clusters and/or pronounce them so that something distinguishable comes out of the various combinations. I am also toying with the idea of allowing consonant length to be a thing with at the very least the nasals. (Should you want to peruse the page to see how things currently lie: http://www.frathwiki.com/Vung_D%C3%A1c_T%C3%B5)

Do folks have suggestions for me?

I think I did not get the question. Could you rephrase it? Are you looking for suggestions wrt (general/specific) phonotactics? Or with allophonical processes to enforce your phonotactics?

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PostPosted: Thu 14 Sep 2017, 00:36 
darkness
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A little of both, as the one leads into the other. Really suggestions for either might help me to nail it down with regard to the opposite part.

Sorry I keep asking such rambling questions around here. It seems like I am never as clear anymore as I mean to be.

Edit: I did decide to delete /z/ and maintain just <dh>.

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PostPosted: Thu 14 Sep 2017, 04:35 
cuneiform
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Thrice Xandvii wrote:
Wasn't sure precisely where to ask this, so I figured here was as good as anywhere else.

So... I've been having trouble with the consonant clusters and general phonotactics for this language I've been developing, below is the phonology and a brief blurb about the general phonotactics.

I know it doesn't tell much, but a good chunk of the allophony I have laid out might change anyway, so I didn't include it. My main issue with having (C)(R,N,F)V(P,N) be the basic structure is my strong displeasure with /z/ ending up in clusters (to where I might delete it anyway as it is the only sibilant fricative) and also the use of <j> in clusters. I find I have difficulty figuring out how to simplify those clusters and/or pronounce them so that something distinguishable comes out of the various combinations. I am also toying with the idea of allowing consonant length to be a thing with at the very least the nasals. (Should you want to peruse the page to see how things currently lie: http://www.frathwiki.com/Vung_D%C3%A1c_T%C3%B5)

Do folks have suggestions for me?


I mean, you could simply just not allow the consonant clusters you don't like. Like, /v~w/ could be the only permitted fricative in clusters if you wanted it that way. Syllable structure doesn't have to involve perfectly symmetrical distributions of every phoneme in a series. Why does English allow initial /tw/ but not initial /stw/? Who knows, that's just how it is.

And if you just wanted to have consonant length in nasals, that would be plausible, because if a language has consonant length in some consonants only and not others, it's more likely to have it in nasals and liquids.


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PostPosted: Thu 14 Sep 2017, 06:10 
darkness
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I think I was just trying too hard to not have exceptions out of a particular class. Perhaps I just needed permission to mess with things a bit more? Thanks!

Edit: Update in the spoiler (for size).
Spoiler: show
Image

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PostPosted: Thu 14 Sep 2017, 18:14 
roman
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For a while now, I've wanted to create a language with a phonology-romanization relationship à la Nortaneous—that is, you can predict the surface form from the underlying form, which is written, but there's considerable mismatch between them strictly speaking. Revisiting and revising an older project of mine has, I believe, finally resulted in a successful attempt at this:

/m n ŋ/ m n ng
/p b t d tʃ dʒ k g ʔ/ p b t d ch j k g h
/w ɹ j/ w r y

/o a e i/ o a e i

(C)V

Now here's where it gets interesting:

j → e̯ / {o,a}_
e̯ → ɛ̯ / _e
o a → ɘ ɛ / e̯_
w ŋ → j ɲ / _E
p b t d tʃ dʒ k g ʔ → ɸ β s~θ z~ð~ɹ~l ʃ~j ʒ~j x Ø h / V_V (varies dialectally)
m n ɲ ŋ → ~w ~ɹ ~j ~h / V_V (nasalizes previous vowel)

/ŋotonoja/ [ŋosõɹoe̯ɛ] ngotonoya
/pepitʃama/ [peɸiʃãwa] pepichama
/aja/ [ae̯ɛ] aya
/ojono/ [oe̯ɘ̃ɹo] oyono
/ɹobobegajoŋe/ [roβoβeae̯ɘ̃je] robobegayonge
/ŋini/ [ɲĩɹi] ngini
/eŋigadajo/ [ẽjiazae̯ɘ] engigadayo
/bakoɹowi/ [baxoɹoji] bakorowi
/tematiŋadedʒi/ [tẽwasĩhazeʒi] tematingadeji

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PostPosted: Fri 15 Sep 2017, 08:29 
rupestrian
rupestrian

Joined: Sun 10 Sep 2017, 14:21
Posts: 10
Location: Sheffield, UK
[Copied and corrected from Quick Questions]
So I've kind of revamped the entire phonology of my conlang recently and I'm needing external opinions! Does this all seem naturalistic/realistic/sensible/[adjective]? I feel like the vowels are quite asymmetrical (6 front vowels vs. 3 back vowels and 3 central/near-back). All constructive criticism will be appreciated <3

Consonants

m n~n̪~ɲ~ŋ <m n>
p b t~t̪ d~d̪ c~ɟ k g <p b t d q c g/
s~z ɕ~ʑ <s z>
f v θ ð ç~ʝ h <f v t d j h>
j w ɾ <y~i w~o r>

Allophony
/t d/ are [θ ð] word-finally/intervocally and [t̪ d̪] after [n̪1 θ ð2]
/s z c/ are [ɕ ʑ ɟ] intervocally when the vowel after is a front vowel i y ɪ e ɛ œ a
/n/ is [n̪] before /t̪ d̪/1, [ɲ] when followed by /c/ and [ŋ] when followed by /k/ or /g/

All consonants except for /θ2 ð2 h j w ɾ/ can be geminated by doubling.

1hence nt/nd is always realised dentally: [n̪t̪ n̪d̪]
2when <tt> or <dd> is written intervocally, these are geminated [tt dd] rather than becoming [θ ð]. Word-finally, they are traditionally realised as [θt̪ ðd̪] but in most cases these are pronounced [t̪t̪ d̪d̪]

Vowels
i~y <i>
ɪ <i>
ʊ <u>
e ɵ o <e u o>
ə <a~ä~e~i~o~u>
ɛ~œ <e>
a ɑ ɒ <ä a o>

Allophony
Words beginning with vowels start with [ʔ]
/i ʊ o/ become [ɪ ɵ ɒ] in closed syllables (followed by two consonants or by a word-final consonant)
/e/ appears in the diphthong <ei> /ej/ and similarly before open vowels a ɑ ɒ <eä ea eo> /eja ejɑ ejo~ejɒ/
/i/ becomes [j] before /ʊ ɵ e o ɛ a ɑ ɒ/
/o/ becomes /w/ after /ɛ a ɑ/
Any unstressed vowel will be realised as [ə] if it is the first of a repeated vowel across two consecutive open syllables when this repetition occurs for inflectional reasons. If this happens to front vowels front vowels /i ɛ~a/ and the word's stress falls on the first of the syllables, the first vowel is rounded to [y œ]. Examples of this:

undaca ['ʊn̪d̪əkɑ] ([3ps] took, from infinitive unda ['ʊn̪d̪ɑ] - unstressed, inflectional repetition, so [ə])
qaca ['cɑkɑ] ([3ps] dreamt, from infinitive qa [cɑ] - stressed, inflectional repetition, but back vowel so no change)
vesäcä [vɛ'zœka] ([3ps] sang, from infinitive vesä ['vɛza] - stressed, inflectional repetition, front vowel so rounded to [œ])
ivesäqä [ivɛ'zaca] (a collection/series of songs - stressed, repetition but non-inflectional, so no change - ivesäqä is derived from vesä but is a noun in its basic (agentive, collective) form)

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