Lęþranſpracın

Thakowsaizmu · Post by **Thakowsaizmu** » 24 May 2011 17:30

For those of you who may have been fallowing on the off-topic board or the chat, I am working on a Germanic language. I am currently working on the stage just after Proto-Germanic (of which there are very few resources in English. Good thing I remember a good portion of German...) to the "olde Asania" phase. Asania is a place-holder name right now (thanks Cereal). There isn't yet too much to share, but I can give a general idea of the language and grammar. Sound changes from PG are based more on West and North Germanic languages, with a lot of inspiration also coming from olde English and olde Norse.

Edit: The "olde-Asania" language's official name is <Lęþranſpracın>, the language of the Wanderers.

Table of Contents
Phonology and changes from PG
-Olde Asania Orthography
Pronouns
Nouns and the Strong Declension
Adjectives
The verbs ƿæra, næra and bva
Meet and Greet
The book of Genesis (An ongoing project)

Where is Lęþranſpracın Spoken?
The Olde Asania Era (ca. 500-1000 AD)

Þa Sefvn Rijcarin Sƿirijcar (Ca. 1000 - ?? AD)

Thakowsaizmu · Post by **Thakowsaizmu** » 24 May 2011 17:33

Phonology of proto-Asania
Vowels:
/i i: y u u:/ <i í y u ú>
/e ø o/ <e ø o>
/ɛ œ/ <è ø>
/æ/ <æ>
/ɑ ɒ/ <a å>

The vowels are fairly straight forward, with practical free variation between /ø/ and /œ/. Diphthongs are pretty much limited to /ɑi/ <ai>, /ɑu/ <au> and /uo/ <uo>

Consonants:
/m n ŋ/ <m n n (before /k/ or followed by <g>)>
/p b t d k g/ <p b t d k g>
/f θ s x/ <f þ s x>
/j w/ <j w>
/r/ <r>
/l/ <l>

Changes from proto-Germanic
Because the resources aren't great, this part may be hard to follow or seem haphazard.
Vowels:
e -> æ
é -> e
ó -> o
ú -> ú, uo
ei -> ai
ai -> è
eu -> ø
au -> å

Consonants:
p -> f (at end)
b -> 0 (at end)
f -> v (between vowels, at end)
kw -> w, kw
z -> 0,è,-r

Notes on orthography
This is not the real orthography for this stage of proto-Asania. However, it is being used for ease of typing and its regularity. As the stages progress and "in world" the language is latinized, I will start to use the new orthography that will be introduced around the olde Asania stage. For now, assume that the language is written in runes. Maybe I'll even get some runic inscriptions up later.

Thakowsaizmu · Post by **Thakowsaizmu** » 24 May 2011 17:44

Pronouns
Because I am no good with tables, you get an ugly block of text for pronouns.
First Person:

Spoiler:

Second Person:

Spoiler:

Third Person:

Spoiler:

Third Person Reflexive:

Spoiler:

Interrogative:

Spoiler:

Thakowsaizmu · Post by **Thakowsaizmu** » 24 May 2011 18:00

Nouns and the strong declension
At this stage in proto-Asania there are three genders (masculine, feminine and neuter) and two numbers (singular and plural) for nouns. There are two strong declensions for each gender, as well as a few weak declensions that I haven't entirely worked out yet. Some nouns have changed gender from PG to proto-Asania for reasons of sound change. There is little logic to this and many must be memorized.

Masculine Strong

Code: Select all

Dag (day)
	Sing	Plur
Nom	-r	-ar		dagr	dagar
Acc	--	-a		dag	daga
Dat	-i	-um		dagi	dagum
Gen	-s	-a		dags	daga

Masculine Strong II

Code: Select all

Fot (foot)
	Sing	Plur
Nom	-r	-ar		fotr	fotar
Acc	¨--	¨-a		føt	føta
Dat	¨-i	¨-um		føti	føtum
Gen	-s	-a		fots	fota

Feminine Strong

Code: Select all

Jera (year)
	Sing	Plur
Nom	--	-(i)r		jera	jerar
Acc	--	-ar		jera	jerar
Dat	-u	-um		jeru	jerum
Gen	-ar	-a		jerar	jera

Feminine Strong II

Code: Select all

Bød (invitation, bidding)
	Sing	Plur
Nom	--	-(i)r		bød	bødir
Acc	¨--	¨-ar		bèd	bèdar
Dat	¨-u	¨-um		bèdu	bèdum
Gen	-ar	-a		bødar	bøda

Neuter Strong

Code: Select all

Trål (troll)
	Sing	Plur
Nom	--	--		trål	trål
Acc	--	--		trål	trål
Dat	-i	-um		tråli	trålum
Gen	-s	-a		tråls	tråla

Neuter Strong II

Code: Select all

Dur (door)
	Sing	Plur
Nom	--	--		dur	dur
Acc	¨--	¨--		dyr	dyr
Dat	¨-i	¨-um		dyri	dyrum
Gen	-s	-a		durs	dura

The Definite Article

Code: Select all

Masc/Fem	-in/-n
Neut		-it/-t

The article is attached to the noun after the cases have changed the noun So, for example:

Code: Select all

Fot (foot)
	Sing	Plur
Nom	-r	-ar		fotrin	fotarin
Acc	¨--	¨-a		føtin	føtan
Dat	¨-i	¨-um		føtin	føtumin
Gen	-s	-a		fotsin	fotan

Code: Select all

Jera (year)
	Sing	Plur
Nom	--	-(i)r		jeran	jerarin
Acc	--	-ar		jeran	jerarin
Dat	-u	-um		jerun	jerumin
Gen	-ar	-a		jerarin	jeran

Code: Select all

Trål (troll)
	Sing	Plur
Nom	--	--		trålit	trålit
Acc	--	--		trålit	trålit
Dat	-i	-um		trålit	trålumit
Gen	-s	-a		trålsit	trålat

The Strong Noun umlaut

Spoiler:

Also, I guess using the code option will work for now. Looks better than ugly blocks of text, anyway.

Thakowsaizmu · Post by **Thakowsaizmu** » 24 May 2011 18:10

THESE ARE ONLY THE NOMINATIVE DECLENSIONS! WILL ADD OTHER CASES SOON!
Adjectives
Common Gender declension (masc and fem)

Code: Select all

Number     Indef		Def
Singular		-0		þan …0
Plural		-(a/i)r		þa …-(a/i)r

With the plural for adjectives, masculine nouns being modified take -(a)r and feminine take -(i)r

Neuter declention

Code: Select all

Number     Indef		Def
Singular		-s		þat …-s
Plural		-0		þa …0

Example time
A long day – Lang dagr
Long days – Langar dagar
The long day – Þan lang dagrin
The long days – Þa langar dagrin
A long battle – Lang bar
Long battles – Langir barir
The long battle – Þan lang barin
The long battles – Þa langir baririn
A young child – Jæxs barn
Young children – Jæx barn
The young child – Þat jæxs barnit
The young children – Þa jæx barnit

Although at this stage adjectives only decline along number and gender, I have not yet decided if the definite article will change due to case or not. It probably should, but it is going to get lost anyway, so I may not bother.

Ainuke · Post by **Ainuke** » 24 May 2011 19:31

What's this "1pd" "2pd"? What does the 'd' stand for?

Thakowsaizmu · Post by **Thakowsaizmu** » 24 May 2011 19:58

eldin raigmore · Post by **eldin raigmore** » 24 May 2011 20:59

Thakowsaizmu wrote:Dual

It's probably not necessary to include the "p" for "person".

Also, we (or at least I) recommend using the Leipzig Glossing Rules (the Leipzig rules for Interlinear Morphemic Glossing).

Especially their list of glossing abbreviations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gl ... reviations

(See also:

Spoiler:

)

First Person:
1SG.NOM æk
1SG.GEN mín
1SG.DAT mir
1SG.ACC mik
1PL.NOM we
1PL.GEN unsær
1PL.DAT uns
1PL.ACC uns
1DU.NOM wæt
1DU.GEN unkær
1DU.DAT unkæ
1DU.ACC unkæ

Second Person:
2SG.NOM þú
2SG.GEN þín
2SG.DAT þær
2SG.ACC þæk
2PL.NOM jú
2PL.GEN irwær
2PL.DAT irwè
2PL.ACC irwè
2DU.NOM jut
2DU.GEN inkær
2DU.DAT inkæ
2DU.ACC inkæ

Third Person:
3SG.F.NOM sí
3SG.F.GEN æro
3SG.F.DAT æro
3SG.F.ACC ijå
3SG.N.NOM it
3SG.N.GEN ès
3SG.N.DAT imè
3SG.N.ACC it
3PL.N.NOM ijo
3PL.N.GEN erå
3PL.N.DAT imar
3PL.N.ACC ijo

By the way:
Did you intend the 3rd person masculine pronouns not to inflect for number?
3.M.NOM ir
3.M.GEN ès
3.M.DAT imè
3.M.ACC inå

And did you intend the 3rd person plural pronouns not to inflect for gender?
3PL.NOM ijor
3PL.GEN erå
3PL.DAT imar
3PL.ACC ijor

But you have third-person-plural-neuter pronouns.

I don't know how your speaker would choose.

Third Person Reflexive:
3REFL.NOM --
3REFL.GEN sín
3REFL.DAT sær
3REFL.ACC sæk

_______________________________________________________________________________

It's interesting that you don't have dual in your nouns but you do in your pronouns.

How do you indicate "dual" in a clause?

There are some Native North American languages in which if the subject noun is in plural form but the verb agrees as if it were singular, that means the subject is dual. Or maybe it's vice-versa; a pluraloid verb with a singularish subject-noun means the subject is dual.

Does your 'lang do anything like that?

Or do your clauses just not show dual number unless the participant is pronominal?

_______________________________________________________________________________

What kinds of reflexive do you have?

Must it always co-refer to a subject but it can co-refer to the subject of any containing clause, for instance the main clause?

Or, must it always co-refer to another participant in the exact clause in which it occurs, but it can co-refer to any participant higher on the noun-phrase-accessibility hierarchy, not just to subjects?

Also; why no 1st-person or 2nd-person reflexives? There's probably a good reason, I just want to know what it is, if you've decided.

Omzinesý · Post by **Omzinesý** » 24 May 2011 21:05

The Finnish marking would be y.1.p. =sg1, k/d.1.p. =du1, m.1.p. =pl1 very complicated.

The language resambles Icelandic (or old Scandinavic) very much. Clitic articles, at least.
I quess it's the purpuse, but is there something very own in P-Asiana?

Thakowsaizmu · Post by **Thakowsaizmu** » 24 May 2011 21:52

eldin raigmore wrote: It's probably not necessary to include the "p" for "person".

Well they are from my notes, so that is what the p is doing there

Also, we (or at least I) recommend using the Leipzig Glossing Rules (the Leipzig rules for Interlinear Morphemic Glossing)

Yeah, aside from the dual thing, it should be pretty straight forward.

By the way:
Did you intend the 3rd person masculine pronouns not to inflect for number?

And did you intend the 3rd person plural pronouns not to inflect for gender?

Yes. The masculine and feminine 3rd person have merged. This is a prelude to the common gender, and can be seen taking place elsewhere as well.

But you have third-person-plural-neuter pronouns.

I don't know how your speaker would choose.

Simple. If the noun being refered to is masc/fem, used the common gender pronouns. If it is neuter, use the neuter ones.

It's interesting that you don't have dual in your nouns but you do in your pronouns.

Blame that on proto-Germanic

How do you indicate "dual" in a clause?

Carefully

There are some Native North American languages in which if the subject noun is in plural form but the verb agrees as if it were singular, that means the subject is dual. Or maybe it's vice-versa; a pluraloid verb with a singularish subject-noun means the subject is dual.

Does your 'lang do anything like that?

Verb conjugation will be covered soon.

What kinds of reflexive do you have?

Must it always co-refer to a subject but it can co-refer to the subject of any containing clause, for instance the main clause?

Or, must it always co-refer to another participant in the exact clause in which it occurs, but it can co-refer to any participant higher on the noun-phrase-accessibility hierarchy, not just to subjects?

Also; why no 1st-person or 2nd-person reflexives? There's probably a good reason, I just want to know what it is, if you've decided.

There are the 3rd person reflexive pronouns. They refer back to the subject. Here's an example:
Sí xrènæþ sín brøstarin - She touches her (own) breasts
Sí xrènæþ æro brøstarin - She touches her (another gal's) breasts
There is no need for a special set of reflexive pronouns for 1st and 2nd person. I'll cover that more with the verbs, though.

Omzinesý wrote: The language resambles Icelandic (or old Scandinavic) very much. Clitic articles, at least.
I quess it's the purpuse, but is there something very own in P-Asiana?

The language is based heavily on olde Norse and olde English for some changes and rules and such. proto-Asania has developed a special negative verb, though. More on that when I get the verbs posted.

Ceresz · Post by **Ceresz** » 25 May 2011 01:45

It's looking great so far. Makes me want to work on Proto-Cereal. Hopefully I'll have a thread up soon.
I look forward to the seeing the modern results of both our languages. I want to see how different they'll be.

Thakowsaizmu · Post by **Thakowsaizmu** » 25 May 2011 01:48

At this point I would like to just get to olde Asania, hehe. But I am having fun with it.

Ceresz · Post by **Ceresz** » 25 May 2011 21:11

It is fun :-). I want to do some runic inscriptions too. Maybe I should go study the runes at Domkyrkan.

Thakowsaizmu · Post by **Thakowsaizmu** » 25 May 2011 21:45

Ceresz wrote:It is fun :-). I want to do some runic inscriptions too. Maybe I should go study the runes at Domkyrkan.

"Ooh, look at me, I'm Cereal, I can just go outside and BAM! runic inscriptions. I live on a viking ship."
...
Some of us have to study runes the olde fashioned way... by using the internet...

Ceresz · Post by **Ceresz** » 25 May 2011 22:04

Aren't I evil

?
I could walk there in under five minutes.

Thakowsaizmu · Post by **Thakowsaizmu** » 25 May 2011 22:32

Ceresz wrote:Aren't I evil ?
I could walk there in under five minutes.

Yeah? Well there is plenty of cool historical stuff five minutes from me. Like, uh...

Thakowsaizmu · Post by **Thakowsaizmu** » 25 May 2011 23:36

Seeing as proto-Asania and Olde Asania are pretty much the same, from here on out I'll use the olde Asania orthography.

Alphabetical Order:
A Æ B C D E Ę F G H J L M N O Ǫ Ø P R S T Þ V Y Ƿ Ȝ

Vowels
Aa Ææ Ee Ęę Jij Oo Ǫǫ Øø Vv Yy
/ɑ æ e ɛ I o ɒ ø u y/

Diphthongs
ij vv aj av
/i: u: ɑi ɑu/

Consonants
Bb Cc Dd Ff Gg Hh Ll Mm Nn Pp Rr Sſs Tt Þþ Ƿƿ Ȝȝ
/b k d f,v g,j x l m n p r s t ϑ w,v g,j,x,i/

g – /j/ before æ, e, ę, i, ø, y. After same vowels when between vowels when not part of a declension
g – /g/ before a, o, ǫ, v, at end of a word, between some vowels.
g – /ƞ/ before n, c
ȝ – /g/ before vowels, /j/ if following most consonants, /x/ at end of word or before most consonants. /i/ in cases of imperative verbs ending in <-ȝa>
ƿ – though always allowed as /w/, though becoming /v/ before æ, e, ę, i, ø, y
f - /f/ at beginning of a word, /v/ elsewhere, unless before unvoiced consonants. <ff> /f/

The rules for <g> and <ȝ> may seem a little bizarre at first, but are fairly regular.

Examples of the orthography at work:
She walks through the pretty garden – Sij liþæþ þvrȝ þat faȝras gardęt
She touches her (own) breasts – Sij hręnæþ sijn brøſtarin
She touches her (another gal’s) breasts – Sij hręnæþ æro brøſtarin
I gave him a book for her – Æc ȝefo imę bøc fyr æro
I did not climb the mountain – Æc næ stęg bærga, Æc stęg næƿiht bærga
Don’t feed the trolls - Hærſȝ næƿiht trǫlit (PRON: hærſi)
I was hit by a wagon – Æc ƿæs bi ƿagnon fǫrſacan
My head hurts – Mijn hafudrin tǫ ƿę

Ceresz · Post by **Ceresz** » 25 May 2011 23:47

Heh, the <g> rules remind me of how it's still done in Swedish.
<g> = /j/ before front vowels.
<g> = /g/ before other vowels.
<g> = [ŋ] before <n>.

The <v> for /u/ reminds me of this (Old Swedish):

The graphemes ‹u›, ‹v›, and ‹w› were used interchangeably with the phonemes /v/ and /u/ (e.g. vtan (without), utan in modern Swedish), and ‹w› could also sometimes stand for the consonant-vowel combinations /vu/ and /uv/: dwa (duva or dove).

Anyway, it's looking pretty darn good.
Btw, why /ϑ/ instead of /θ/ :-s?

Thakowsaizmu · Post by **Thakowsaizmu** » 25 May 2011 23:50

Ceresz wrote:Heh, the <g> rules remind me of how it's still done in Swedish.
<g> = /j/ before front vowels.
<g> = /g/ before other vowels.
<g> = [ŋ] before <n>.

The <v> for /u/ reminds me of this (Old Swedish):
The graphemes ‹u›, ‹v›, and ‹w› were used interchangeably with the phonemes /v/ and /u/ (e.g. vtan (without), utan in modern Swedish), and ‹w› could also sometimes stand for the consonant-vowel combinations /vu/ and /uv/: dwa (duva or dove).
Anyway, it's looking pretty darn good.
Btw, why /ϑ/ instead of /θ/ :-s?

Well... I kind of got some of the ideas of <g> and <v> from Swedish / Olde Swedish, as well as Olde English, because it did stuff like that there too.
As for /ϑ/ in place of /θ/, I have no clue. When I pasted the character it came out like that. So...

Ceresz · Post by **Ceresz** » 25 May 2011 23:53

I had to google "ϑ" since I didn't recognize it

.

Anyway, anything on verbs yet :-)?

The CBB

Lęþranſpracın

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