Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
Post Reply
User avatar
SLiV
sinic
sinic
Posts: 350
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 18:40
Location: NL
Contact:

Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by SLiV »

I already coined the idea of a collab romance-germanic auxlang, but although there was good animo for the idea, it died out after a while; IMHO mostly because of the huge gap between Romance and Germanic langs. There were always two options: a Romance and a Germanic version of the suffix/article/vowel etc.

That is why I suggest we try again, but this time only with germanic. Of course, if interested, we could also create an additional romance auxlang.

Also, I say that we start by creating some words. Not definitely, but just to get a feel of how this lang will look and sound like. After that, we might form some pronounciation rules and whatnot.

Anyone interested?

EDIT:

Consonants:
Spoiler:
/p b t d tʃ k g/ <p b t tj d k g>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/f v s z ʃ x h/ <f v s z sj ch h>
/ʋ~w l j/ <w l j>
/r~ʁ/ <r>
Vowels:
Spoiler:
Long/Tense:
/i:/ <ie> and <í>
/y:/ <ye> and <ý>
/u:/ <ou> and <ú>
/e:/ <ee> and <é>
/ø:/ <eu> and <ǿ>
/o:/ <oo> and <ó>
/a:/ <ae> or <aa> and <á>

Short/Lax:
/ɪ/ <i>
/ʏ/ <y>
/u/ <u>
/ɛ/ <e>
/œ/ <oe> and <ø>
/ɔ/ <o>
/a/ <a>
Noun conjugations:
Spoiler:
nom.
sg. ind. en blaue hound
sg. def. de blaue hound
pl. ind. blauen hounden
pl. def. den blauen hounden

Singular nouns have a possessive with a final -s; e.g. "paters blaue hound"
Pronouns:
Spoiler:
Eng. - nom., acc., poss. (adj.)
I - ek, me, mine
you - du, de, dine
he/she - sa, se, sine
he - ha, he, hine
she - za, ze, zine
it - et, et, etine

we - wi, os, osine
you - ju, je, jine
they (anim.) - ta, te, tine
they (inan.) - etta, ette, ettine
Verbs:
Spoiler:
infinitive- (ad) werk-en
imperative - werk!
present - werk-e
present pl. - werk-e-n
past - werk-ed
perfect prt. - ge-werk-et
present prt. - werk-end
'to be':
Spoiler:
present:

ek bin
du bis
sa is
wi sin
ja sin
ta sin

infinitive: sin
imperat.: wer!
past: wered
perfect prt: geweret
present prt: werend
Last edited by SLiV on 20 Nov 2010 13:45, edited 3 times in total.
:nld: native | :eng: fluent | :deu: :fra: :esp: reading | :lat: :grc: translating
User avatar
MrKrov
banned
Posts: 1929
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 02:47
Location: /ai/ > /a:/
Contact:

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by MrKrov »

No.
Thakowsaizmu
runic
runic
Posts: 2518
Joined: 13 Aug 2010 18:57

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Thakowsaizmu »

Ég denke åt that spaß could vara.
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4082
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Omzinesý »

We did fight about having /y/ and /ø/. Decide first if you demand them.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Arzemju
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 137
Joined: 15 Aug 2010 02:38
Location: France

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Arzemju »

Some random words with random phonemes (that might look germanic):

hendert [hɑndart]
fürthen [fyrðən]
daggen [dakʰən]
gote [gaʊt]
att [æd]
jer [eɹ]
on [ɔn]

Well, those words came in my mind, i just wrote them down.
Fluent: :fra: :eng: | Learning: :esp: :tgl: :epo:
Etherman
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 67
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 01:50

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Etherman »

If this is an auxlang then why would we have front rounded vowels which only appear in German?
User avatar
Arzemju
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 137
Joined: 15 Aug 2010 02:38
Location: France

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Arzemju »

Etherman wrote:If this is an auxlang then why would we have front rounded vowels which only appear in German?
Because those are only samples that does not match any decided phonology. Those are just random, I think you are able to read properly and understand what is written in my previous post:
Arzemju wrote:Some random words with random phonemes
Fluent: :fra: :eng: | Learning: :esp: :tgl: :epo:
User avatar
SLiV
sinic
sinic
Posts: 350
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 18:40
Location: NL
Contact:

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by SLiV »

Omzinesý wrote:We did fight about having /y/ and /ø/. Decide first if you demand them.
I like them a lot, so I'd say we add them. "Demand" is a bit 'uncollaborative' AFAIC.

Let's jump right in and all translate some Swadesh words. Just try something reasonable.

Here's mine.
Spoiler:
36 woman frou vrouw vrou Fru vrouw Weesh, Wiihf, Määdshe, Frou, Frouminsch, Frounßminsch Fra Frau kvinde kvinna kona, kvinna kona kvinne --- FRAU
37 man (adult male) man man man Mann man Mann, Kääl, Jung Mann Mann mand man maður karlmaður mann --- MAN
38 man (human being) minske mens mens Minsch minsj Minsch Mënsch Mensch menneske människa menniskja maður menneske --- MENS
39 child (a youth), kid bern kind kind Kind kèndj Panz, (Kinndt) Kand Kind barn barn barn barn barn --- KIND
99 to breathe asemje, sykhelje ademen asemhaal puusten, Luft halen aome ödemme otmen atmen ånde andas anda anda puste --- ADM
100 to laugh laitsje lachen lag lachen lache laache laachen lachen le, grine skratta læa, grína, flenna hlæja le --- LACH
101 to see sjen zien sien sehn zeen luuere, kikke, sinn gesin, kucken sehen se se síggja sjá se --- SEE
102 to hear hearre horen hoor höörn hure hüüere héieren hören høre höra hoyra heyra høre --- HOOR
103 to know witte weten weet weten weite weßße wëssen wissen vide veta vita vita vite --- WIT
170 road, way dyk/wei/reed weg pad Straat waeg Shtroohß Strooss Weg vej väg vegur gata, vegur vei --- WEEG
171 mountain berch berg berg Barg berg Bärrəsch Bierg Berg bjerg berg fjall fjall fjell --- BERG
172 red read rood rooi root roed ruudt rout rot rød röd reyður rauður rød --- ROOD
173 green grien groen groen gröön greun jrööhn gréng grün grøn grön grønur grænn grønn --- GRUUN
174 yellow giel geel geel geel gael jääl giel gelb gul gul gulur gulur gul --- GEEL
204 and en en en un en unn an und og och og og og --- EN
205 if at als, indien as wenn es wänn, fallß wann wenn, falls, ob hvis om um ef hvis --- WENN
206 because omdat omdat omdat wiel dat ómdat wijel, wääre, drömm, fö well weil fordi eftersom, ty tí því fordi --- WEIL
207 name namme naam naam Naam naam Naame Numm Name navn namn navn nafn navn --- NAAM
Here's an 'empty' one.
Spoiler:
36 woman frou vrouw vrou Fru vrouw Weesh, Wiihf, Määdshe, Frou, Frouminsch, Frounßminsch Fra Frau kvinde kvinna kona, kvinna kona kvinne
37 man (adult male) man man man Mann man Mann, Kääl, Jung Mann Mann mand man maður karlmaður mann
38 man (human being) minske mens mens Minsch minsj Minsch Mënsch Mensch menneske människa menniskja maður menneske
39 child (a youth), kid bern kind kind Kind kèndj Panz, (Kinndt) Kand Kind barn barn barn barn barn
99 to breathe asemje, sykhelje ademen asemhaal puusten, Luft halen aome ödemme otmen atmen ånde andas anda anda puste
100 to laugh laitsje lachen lag lachen lache laache laachen lachen le, grine skratta læa, grína, flenna hlæja le
101 to see sjen zien sien sehn zeen luuere, kikke, sinn gesin, kucken sehen se se síggja sjá se
102 to hear hearre horen hoor höörn hure hüüere héieren hören høre höra hoyra heyra høre
103 to know witte weten weet weten weite weßße wëssen wissen vide veta vita vita vite
170 road, way dyk/wei/reed weg pad Straat waeg Shtroohß Strooss Weg vej väg vegur gata, vegur vei
171 mountain berch berg berg Barg berg Bärrəsch Bierg Berg bjerg berg fjall fjall fjell
172 red read rood rooi root roed ruudt rout rot rød röd reyður rauður rød
173 green grien groen groen gröön greun jrööhn gréng grün grøn grön grønur grænn grønn
174 yellow giel geel geel geel gael jääl giel gelb gul gul gulur gulur gul
204 and en en en un en unn an und og och og og og
205 if at als, indien as wenn es wänn, fallß wann wenn, falls, ob hvis om um ef hvis
206 because omdat omdat omdat wiel dat ómdat wijel, wääre, drömm, fö well weil fordi eftersom, ty tí því fordi
207 name namme naam naam Naam naam Naame Numm Name navn namn navn nafn navn
There is no need to discuss phonemes, diphthongs or the graphs of someones ideas, at it is just a way to compare. E.g. if most of us want "frau" for "woman", we could add some AU diphthong.
:nld: native | :eng: fluent | :deu: :fra: :esp: reading | :lat: :grc: translating
Wanderer
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 135
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 14:32

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Wanderer »

Etherman wrote:If this is an auxlang then why would we have front rounded vowels which only appear in German?

Because they appear in every Germanic language but English (and some varieties of Scots)

Here's a list of the front vowels for all modern languages or dialect clusters that are listed as seperate in the wikipedia article about Germanic languages.

English lacks front rounded vowels.
Scots might has /ø/*
German has /y: ʏ øː œ/
Low Saxon has /y/**
Frisian has /y y: ø ø: œː/***
Dutch has /y: ʏ ø:/
Icelandic has /ʏ œ/
Faroese has /ʏ œ ø:/
Norwegian has /ʏ y: œ ø:/
Swedish has /ʏ y: œ ø:/
Danish has /y y: ø ø: œ œ: ɶ/

*some dialects merge it with other vowels
** wikipedia lists only /y/, but I know some varieties have /ø/, like Tweants.
*** I picked West Frisian, since that has most speakers, I don't know about any other dialects, but presumeably, it will be similar.

I didn't even take diphthongs into account, which would make it far more numerous, since most Germanic languages have diphthongs with front rounded vowels too.

My conclusion is, front rounded vowels are very very typical for Germanic languages, not having them would be silly.
User avatar
Arzemju
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 137
Joined: 15 Aug 2010 02:38
Location: France

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Arzemju »

Here is my attempt at SLiV's word list. "AD" is the verb marker (like "to" in english)
Spoiler:
36 woman frou vrouw vrou Fru vrouw Weesh, Wiihf, Määdshe, Frou, Frouminsch, Frounßminsch Fra Frau kvinde kvinna kona, kvinna kona kvinne FRAU
37 man (adult male) man man man Mann man Mann, Kääl, Jung Mann Mann mand man maður karlmaður mann MAN
38 man (human being) minske mens mens Minsch minsj Minsch Mënsch Mensch menneske människa menniskja maður menneske MENS
39 child (a youth), kid bern kind kind Kind kèndj Panz, (Kinndt) Kand Kind barn barn barn barn barn KIDER
99 to breathe asemje, sykhelje ademen asemhaal puusten, Luft halen aome ödemme otmen atmen ånde andas anda anda puste AD AMHAL
100 to laugh laitsje lachen lag lachen lache laache laachen lachen le, grine skratta læa, grína, flenna hlæja le AD LUICH
101 to see sjen zien sien sehn zeen luuere, kikke, sinn gesin, kucken sehen se se síggja sjá se AD SEE
102 to hear hearre horen hoor höörn hure hüüere héieren hören høre höra hoyra heyra høre AD HOART
103 to know witte weten weet weten weite weßße wëssen wissen vide veta vita vita vite AD VETSSE
170 road, way dyk/wei/reed weg pad Straat waeg Shtroohß Strooss Weg vej väg vegur gata, vegur vei STROOD
171 mountain berch berg berg Barg berg Bärrəsch Bierg Berg bjerg berg fjall fjall fjell FJELD
172 red read rood rooi root roed ruudt rout rot rød röd reyður rauður rød RUD
173 green grien groen groen gröön greun jrööhn gréng grün grøn grön grønur grænn grønn GRUNN
174 yellow giel geel geel geel gael jääl giel gelb gul gul gulur gulur gul GJUL
204 and en en en un en unn an und og och og og og OTT
205 if at als, indien as wenn es wänn, fallß wann wenn, falls, ob hvis om um ef hvis VAS
206 because omdat omdat omdat wiel dat ómdat wijel, wääre, drömm, fö well weil fordi eftersom, ty tí því fordi VJELS
207 name namme naam naam Naam naam Naame Numm Name navn namn navn nafn navn NAMMN
I think we should take the most used front rounder vowels in Wanderer's list, which are /ʏ y œ/ and their long counterparts.
Fluent: :fra: :eng: | Learning: :esp: :tgl: :epo:
User avatar
Maximillian
greek
greek
Posts: 538
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 20:33
Location: Israel
Contact:

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Maximillian »

Arzemju wrote:I think we should take the most used front rounder vowels in Wanderer's list, which are /ʏ y œ/ and their long counterparts.
I don't know of any Germanic language that contrasts /ʏ/ and /y/.
UNUS•ET•UNICUS
User avatar
SLiV
sinic
sinic
Posts: 350
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 18:40
Location: NL
Contact:

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by SLiV »

Dutch does.

EDIT:
Wait. No, it doesn't. /ʏ/ is the short counterpart of /y/, AFAIK.
:nld: native | :eng: fluent | :deu: :fra: :esp: reading | :lat: :grc: translating
User avatar
Arzemju
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 137
Joined: 15 Aug 2010 02:38
Location: France

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Arzemju »

SLiV wrote:Dutch does.

EDIT:
Wait. No, it doesn't. /ʏ/ is the short counterpart of /y/, AFAIK.
/y œː/ are long counterparts of /ʏ œ/, is it good?

So, those vowels aren't enough for a language, any other suggestions?

Does germanic language differenciate long and short vowel, we want something typically germanic, right?
Fluent: :fra: :eng: | Learning: :esp: :tgl: :epo:
Wanderer
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 135
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 14:32

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Wanderer »

Common in Germanic languages is a series of 'lax' vs. a series of 'tense' vowels. These are commonly refered to as having a long vs short distinction, but in many languages it is as much a difference in quality as a difference in length. In that perspective, the distinction between /ʏ/ and /y:/, which exists in several Germanic languages, is both a distinction in length and quality. So /ʏ/ and /y/ are distinct, but this distinction also comes with a difference in length.

Since all Germanic languages, save Icelandic, have a length distinction, often accompanied by a slight difference in quality, we ought to make a similar distinction. A possible vowel inventory we could have, would be like this:

Long/Tense:
/i:/
/y:/
/u:/
/e:/
/ø:/
/o:/
/a:/*

Short/Lax:
/ɪ/
/ʏ/
/u/**
/ɛ/
/œ/
/ɔ/
/a/*

*/a: a/ could also be /a: ɑ/ or even /ɑ: ɑ/.
**/u/ could be /ʊ/. That would follow the principle of the tense/lax distinction, but not all languages use /ʊ/, some rather just have a short /u/.

These series would like be accompanied by a schwa, which seems to be present in most if not all Germanic languages.

This set is based mostly on German and Norwegian, which seem to have the most systematic vowel inventories.

Some Germanic languages might not corrospond neatly with this set, but those generally have an unbalanced and unsystematic vowel inventory. I believe it is easier for an auxlang to have an inventory without any weird gaps or presence of vowels that are uncommon in Germanic languages. An inventory similar to what I proposed above is easy to pronounce for most speakers of Germanic languages and is relatively easy to learn becuase it's nice and systematic and all :mrgreen: .

A possible consideration is if we want the difference in quality between long and short, since not all Germanic languages have it. We could have the distinction in length be obliged and the difference in quality be allophonic, in free variation.
User avatar
Arzemju
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 137
Joined: 15 Aug 2010 02:38
Location: France

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Arzemju »

This is really nice! But i think the /y/ would cause problem to English speakers.. Well, we won't base this mainly off english but on all germanic languages. The vowels fits perfectly for a germanic language.
This is a phoneme inventory I thought of:

/p b t d k g/
/m n ŋ/
/r/
/f v θ ð s z ç h ɧ/
/ʋ ɹ j l/

/r/ could be an allophone of /ɹ/, or the inverse.
Fluent: :fra: :eng: | Learning: :esp: :tgl: :epo:
Etherman
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 67
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 01:50

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Etherman »

Wanderer wrote:
Etherman wrote:If this is an auxlang then why would we have front rounded vowels which only appear in German?

Because they appear in every Germanic language but English (and some varieties of Scots)
I must have been severely drunk and/or retarded when I wrote that.
User avatar
SLiV
sinic
sinic
Posts: 350
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 18:40
Location: NL
Contact:

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by SLiV »

I really like Wanderer's vowel system (generally). The schwa is a must-have. Why isn't the short A an /ɐ/?

/θ/ and /ð/ seem quite out of place. Most modern germanic langs lack them, and they are hard to pronounce for non-native-users (e.g. dutch tourists saying [dɛr ɪs nɔtɪŋ] and nazis saying [zɛr ɪs nɔfɪŋ]). The rest seems quite fine.
:nld: native | :eng: fluent | :deu: :fra: :esp: reading | :lat: :grc: translating
Bristel
sinic
sinic
Posts: 359
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:50

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Bristel »

Arzemju wrote: /p b t d k g/
/m n ŋ/
/r/
/f v θ ð s z ç h ɧ/
/ʋ ɹ j l/
Why /ɧ/? That doesn't exist in most Germanic languages... The only ones I know that contain that sje-ljudet, "sje-sound", are in a few dialects of Swedish, and possibly the Kölsch (Colognian) dialect of German.

Also, I agree that /θ ð/ are both uncommon in Germanic languages.
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīqua cupiditāte illectus hōc agō.
[tiː.mɔ.tʉɥs god.lɐf hɑwk]
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4082
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by Omzinesý »

Arzemju wrote: /p b t d k g/
/m n ŋ/
/r/
/f v θ ð s z ç h ɧ/
/ʋ ɹ j l/

/r/ could be an allophone of /ɹ/, or the inverse.
Aspiration? In the beginnig of a word in unvoiced plosives. Yes no θ ð, they can simply be t and d. Does r appear word finally r? Is ç a necessarity? I think it appears clearly only in German. h and ɧ can be allophones.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
SLiV
sinic
sinic
Posts: 350
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 18:40
Location: NL
Contact:

Re: Collaborative Germanic Auxlang

Post by SLiV »

Omzinesý wrote:
Arzemju wrote: /p b t d k g/
/m n ŋ/
/r/
/f v θ ð s z ç h ɧ/
/ʋ ɹ j l/

/r/ could be an allophone of /ɹ/, or the inverse.
Aspiration? In the beginnig of a word in unvoiced plosives. Yes no θ ð, they can simply be t and d. Does r appear word finally r? Is ç a necessarity? I think it appears clearly only in German. h and ɧ can be allophones.
No /θ/ or /ð/ then.

Dutch has a /ç~x/ as well, and I'd say /x/ is harder to pronounce than /ç/. I favor it.

Also /ɧ/ is a combi of /ʃ/ and /x/, which seems to appear in german and dutch as well (says Wiki). Not sure about that one, though.
:nld: native | :eng: fluent | :deu: :fra: :esp: reading | :lat: :grc: translating
Post Reply