Hiding Waters Feayran
Re: Hiding Waters Feayran
And that's all for reclassifiers.
Questions?
So now I'm getting away from the morphosyntactic stuff and getting into more pragmatic, upper-level shininess. Any thoughts or questions before I forge ahead?
Questions?
So now I'm getting away from the morphosyntactic stuff and getting into more pragmatic, upper-level shininess. Any thoughts or questions before I forge ahead?
任何事物的发展都是物极必反,否极泰来。
- eldin raigmore
- korean
- Posts: 6352
- Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
- Location: SouthEast Michigan
Re: Hiding Waters Feayran
Forgive me if you've already covered this.
But:
Suppose you have four clauses, R and S and T and U.
How would you express:
"If (if R then S) then (if T then U)"?
Or the simpler
"If (if R then S) then T"?
or
"If S then (if T then U)"?
Have you really covered all the syntax of bi-clausal and multi-clausal constructions?
Can you translate "The House that Jack Built"?
What about
"If a hen and a half need a day and a half to lay an egg and a half,
how long does it take one hen to lay one egg?"?
OK, what's the shiny pragmatic stuff?
But:
Suppose you have four clauses, R and S and T and U.
How would you express:
"If (if R then S) then (if T then U)"?
Or the simpler
"If (if R then S) then T"?
or
"If S then (if T then U)"?
Have you really covered all the syntax of bi-clausal and multi-clausal constructions?
Can you translate "The House that Jack Built"?
What about
"If a hen and a half need a day and a half to lay an egg and a half,
how long does it take one hen to lay one egg?"?
OK, what's the shiny pragmatic stuff?
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
Re: Hiding Waters Feayran
No comments or anything, just wanted to drop in and commend you on this Trailsend. Great work
Re: Hiding Waters Feayran
Awesome questions, thanks!
Tsutsinàokwkukólhtosuòkw háa squsàokílhtokt sisinuxính.
ts<u-tsin<ào>kw-k:u-k-ó-lht:o-s<uò>kw háa sq<u-s<ào>-k-í-lht:o>kt sisin<u-x-í>nh
outside<LEAD-lodge<ABL.INAN>-2:LEAD.SG-PRFV-SBJV.CAUS-REED:INAN.SG-AUX<LAT.INAN>> look ruined<LEAD-AUX<ABL.INAN>-PRFV-SUBJ-REED:INAN.SG> raining<LEAD-STAT-SBJV>
if you put that (fibrous reed smell trace) outside the lodge then something will happen / look / it would become ruined because of that / (if) it would rain
If you leave that (reed mat?) outside the lodge, then if it rains it will get ruined.
The interjection háa marks a pragmatic/semantic division, so the causal connection between squsàokílhtokt ("it would become ruined because of that") and sisinuxính ("if it would rain") is stronger than that between tsutsinàokwkukólhtosuòkw and squsàokílhtokt.
Hixálhtotsinokwl ttsokilkilhástlhol.
h<i-x-á-lht:o-tsin<o>kw>l ttsok<i-lk:i-lh-á-stlh:o>l
within<FOLLOW-STAT-IND-REED:INAN.SG-lodge<LOC.INAN>> building<FOLLOW-MASC:FOLLOW.SG-ESSENTIAL-IND-CEDAR:INAN.SG>
that (fibrous reed smell trace) is inside the lodge / he built that (cedar oil smell trace)
The (fiber mats?) are inside the (cedar) lodge that he built.
In the example above, the predicate indicating who built the lodge is clarifying background information, so it is placed in the less newsworthy position. On the other hand, you could have
Ttsokilkilhástlhol hixálhtotsinokwl.
He built the lodge that those (fiber mats?) are in.
EDIT: OH! But you weren't asking about the phrase, you were asking about the nursery rhyme! Right!
So, I lack a lot of the vocab for the whole thing, but the above pattern would still be used. There would be a predicate for each phrase, all wired together by scent roles (which would probably have to get gó-shifted a few times by the end). So the last verse would gloss something like,
(Masculine scent trace) is standing over there, (masculine scent trace) is scattering (mealy scent trace) over the ground, (bird scent trace) habitually ate (mealy scent trace), (bird scent trace) awoke (elder scent trace), (elder scent trace) had cut hair, (elder scent trace) spoke the ritual for gó (masculine scent trace), (masculine scent trace) was scraggly, (masculine smell trace) kissed (feminine smell trace), (feminine smell trace) was wistful, (feminine smell trace) stalked (large ungulate smell trace), (large ungulate smell trace) kicked (noncompetitive predator smell trace), (noncompetitive predator) bit (youth smell trace), (youth smell trace) killed (small prey smell trace), (small prey smell trace) ate gó (mealy scent trace), (mealy scent trace) was within the lodge, gó (masculine smell trace) built (cedar smell trace), [Jack's name tagged with masculine role marker].
And there it is.
This would be most likely be rendered via interjected phrasal divisions and alternations in protasis/apodosis marking. E.g.:eldin raigmore wrote:Suppose you have four clauses, R and S and T and U.
How would you express:
"If (if R then S) then (if T then U)"?
Or the simpler
"If (if R then S) then T"?
or
"If S then (if T then U)"?
Tsutsinàokwkukólhtosuòkw háa squsàokílhtokt sisinuxính.
ts<u-tsin<ào>kw-k:u-k-ó-lht:o-s<uò>kw háa sq<u-s<ào>-k-í-lht:o>kt sisin<u-x-í>nh
outside<LEAD-lodge<ABL.INAN>-2:LEAD.SG-PRFV-SBJV.CAUS-REED:INAN.SG-AUX<LAT.INAN>> look ruined<LEAD-AUX<ABL.INAN>-PRFV-SUBJ-REED:INAN.SG> raining<LEAD-STAT-SBJV>
if you put that (fibrous reed smell trace) outside the lodge then something will happen / look / it would become ruined because of that / (if) it would rain
If you leave that (reed mat?) outside the lodge, then if it rains it will get ruined.
The interjection háa marks a pragmatic/semantic division, so the causal connection between squsàokílhtokt ("it would become ruined because of that") and sisinuxính ("if it would rain") is stronger than that between tsutsinàokwkukólhtosuòkw and squsàokílhtokt.
Probably not—I expect there's some fun structures that I haven't touched on, but I've given the main core of the system. Any more fun constructions like the ones above you'd like to see?eldin raigmore wrote:Have you really covered all the syntax of bi-clausal and multi-clausal constructions?
Not by itself—no noun phrases—but if I drop it in a context:eldin raigmore wrote:Can you translate "The House that Jack Built"?
Hixálhtotsinokwl ttsokilkilhástlhol.
h<i-x-á-lht:o-tsin<o>kw>l ttsok<i-lk:i-lh-á-stlh:o>l
within<FOLLOW-STAT-IND-REED:INAN.SG-lodge<LOC.INAN>> building<FOLLOW-MASC:FOLLOW.SG-ESSENTIAL-IND-CEDAR:INAN.SG>
that (fibrous reed smell trace) is inside the lodge / he built that (cedar oil smell trace)
The (fiber mats?) are inside the (cedar) lodge that he built.
In the example above, the predicate indicating who built the lodge is clarifying background information, so it is placed in the less newsworthy position. On the other hand, you could have
Ttsokilkilhástlhol hixálhtotsinokwl.
He built the lodge that those (fiber mats?) are in.
EDIT: OH! But you weren't asking about the phrase, you were asking about the nursery rhyme! Right!
So, I lack a lot of the vocab for the whole thing, but the above pattern would still be used. There would be a predicate for each phrase, all wired together by scent roles (which would probably have to get gó-shifted a few times by the end). So the last verse would gloss something like,
(Masculine scent trace) is standing over there, (masculine scent trace) is scattering (mealy scent trace) over the ground, (bird scent trace) habitually ate (mealy scent trace), (bird scent trace) awoke (elder scent trace), (elder scent trace) had cut hair, (elder scent trace) spoke the ritual for gó (masculine scent trace), (masculine scent trace) was scraggly, (masculine smell trace) kissed (feminine smell trace), (feminine smell trace) was wistful, (feminine smell trace) stalked (large ungulate smell trace), (large ungulate smell trace) kicked (noncompetitive predator smell trace), (noncompetitive predator) bit (youth smell trace), (youth smell trace) killed (small prey smell trace), (small prey smell trace) ate gó (mealy scent trace), (mealy scent trace) was within the lodge, gó (masculine smell trace) built (cedar smell trace), [Jack's name tagged with masculine role marker].
And there it is.
Ha! This'll be fun. I'm out of time at the moment, but I'll have this up shortly.eldin raigmore wrote:What about
"If a hen and a half need a day and a half to lay an egg and a half,
how long does it take one hen to lay one egg?"?
任何事物的发展都是物极必反,否极泰来。
Re: Hiding Waters Feayran
Déi xuzàosaétsimuòkww gùoquzonsukaégok xuzàulhástutsimùukww xuzàokágotsimùokww,eldin raigmore wrote:What about
"If a hen and a half need a day and a half to lay an egg and a half,
how long does it take one hen to lay one egg?"?
náa xulhístuzuw náa xukígozow gùoqulonstukígok hií?
Spoiler:
That was interesting. Awesome challenge, Eldin!
Thanks!Aszev wrote:No comments or anything, just wanted to drop in and commend you on this Trailsend. Great work
Any other questions or requests?
任何事物的发展都是物极必反,否极泰来。
- eldin raigmore
- korean
- Posts: 6352
- Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
- Location: SouthEast Michigan
Re: Hiding Waters Feayran
Re: your last answers:
How cool!
Thanks.
How cool!
Thanks.
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
Re: Hiding Waters Feayran
Did you see that I edited in a gloss of the whole "House that Jack Built" nursery rhyme? On first read I thought you just wanted a translation of the phrase :P
任何事物的发展都是物极必反,否极泰来。
- eldin raigmore
- korean
- Posts: 6352
- Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
- Location: SouthEast Michigan
Re: Hiding Waters Feayran
I saw that you did the entire last verse, which is enough to figure out the whole nursery rhyme.Trailsend wrote:Did you see that I edited in a gloss of the whole "House that Jack Built" nursery rhyme? On first read I thought you just wanted a translation of the phrase :P
Did you know that Jack Horner (who sat in a corner eating a Christmas pie) was the Jack that built the house in which the malt lay?
How would you say or ask that in Feayran?
(And BTW I think the point of the malt was to brew beer from it.)
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
- eldin raigmore
- korean
- Posts: 6352
- Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
- Location: SouthEast Michigan
Re: Hiding Waters Feayran
Remember my question about conditional ("if") constructions?
I forgot the "else" part
OK, so, now, suppose we have nine (probably simple) clauses, which I'll abbreviate as follows;
R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, and Z.
How would you say:
or, to make it a bit less like C or PASCAL or ALGOL or some such programming language,
How would you say,
"If (if R then S else T) then (if U then V else W) else (if X then Y else Z)."?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW there are in all three obvious types of question you can ask about the "hen-and-a-half situation".
One is the type I asked already; how long would it take one hen to lay one egg (answer: a day and a half).
Here are the other two:
I forgot the "else" part
OK, so, now, suppose we have nine (probably simple) clauses, which I'll abbreviate as follows;
R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, and Z.
How would you say:
Code: Select all
IF
(IF (R) THEN {S} ELSE {T} ENDIF)
THEN
{IF (U) THEN {V} ELSE {W} ENDIF}
ELSE
{IF (X) THEN {Y} ELSE {Z} ENDIF}
ENDIF
How would you say,
"If (if R then S else T) then (if U then V else W) else (if X then Y else Z)."?
BTW there are in all three obvious types of question you can ask about the "hen-and-a-half situation".
One is the type I asked already; how long would it take one hen to lay one egg (answer: a day and a half).
Here are the other two:
- If a hen and a half need a day and a half to lay an egg and a half, how many hens does it take to lay one egg in one day? (answer: a hen and a half.)
- If a hen and a half need a day and a half to lay an egg and a half, how many eggs can one hen lay in one day? (answer: two-thirds of an egg.)
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
Re: Hiding Waters Feayran
Awesome questions again—sorry for the delay!
E.g.,
Háa kusanàinhlhálkuda hé, tí hé ttsokulkulhájol.
háa k<u-san<ài>nh-lh-á-lk:u>da hé tí hé ttok<u-lk:u-lh-á-j:o>l
look going<LEAD-lake<ABL.FOLLOW>-ESSENTIAL-IND-MASC:LEAD.SG> DEF only DEF building<LEAD-MASC:LEAD.SG-ESSENTIAL-IND-1:INAN.SG>
look / he came from the lake / that one // only one / that one / he built my (shelter)
That man from the lake region is the same one who built my shelter, you know.
As before, the subjunctive mood will be everywhere, with causal relations drawn using incorporated auxiliaries (in lative position on protases, and ablative position on apodoses). Interjections and auxiliary predicates will also be involved to draw the upper-level relationships.
In general, "else" is indicated with an internally-negated auxiliary predicate marked in the usual way to show a causal relationship with the second apodosis. So, an abbreviated gloss would look like:
x<SBJV-AUX<LAT>> y<SBJV> AUX<NEG-SBJV-AUX<LAT>> z<SBJV>
if x / then y / if not / then z
If x, then y; else, z.
So, your example could be translated by using interjections to mark the boundaries between the different relationships, and auxiliary predicates to show causal relationships between one sub-structure and the next. So:
déi R<SBJV-AUX<LAT>> S<SBJV> AUX<NEG-SBJV-AUX<LAT>> T<SBJV>, náa úk AUX<SBJV-AUX<LAT>> U<SBJV> V<AUX<ABL>-SBJV> AUX<NEG-SBJV> W<AUX<ABL>-SBJV>, úk AUX<NEG-SBJV-AUX<LAT>> X<SBJV> Y<AUX<ABL>-SBJV> AUX<NEG-SBJV> Z<AUX<ABL>-SBJV>
you_see / if R then something happens / S would happen / if not, then something happens / T would happen / well / but / if that is so then something happens / U would happen / if that is so, then V would happen / that would not happen / if that is so then W would happen / but / if that is not so then something happens / X would happen / if that is so then Y would happen / that would not happen / if that is so then Z would happen
If (if R then S else T) then (if U then V else W) else (if X then Y else Z).
There's an interesting quirk going on here, which happens a lot in complex conditional statements. A handy feature of conditionals in Feayran is that you can mark them in two different ways, because while all the involved predicates take the subjunctive mood, only one (either the protasis or the apodosis) needs to be marked with an incorporated auxiliary. So, you can have conditional statements with marked protases, or conditional statements with marked apodoses.
This can help to differentiate phrases from each other. For example, in the above, the second and third embedded conditional statements use marked apodoses. However, the auxiliaries used to mark the upper-level relationship (as well as the first embedded statement) use marked protases. This helps to set apart the embedded statements within the main statement.
Also, since the first embedded conditional is something of a hypothetical hypothetical, the protasis would probably be in the conjectural aspect.
Déi xuzàosaétsimuòkww gùoquzonsukaégok xuzàulhástutsimùukww xuzàokágotsimùokww,
náa xulhístuw hií xukígozow gùoquzostukígok?
so / it is from one to half more / the bird can lay an egg over the course of a day / the bird numbers at one and half more / the egg reaches the number of one and half more / well / the bird would be numbered / what / the egg would reach the number of one / the bird would lay the egg over the course of one (day)
If a hen and a half need a day and a half to lay an egg and a half, how many hens does it take to lay one egg in one day?
Déi xuzàosaétsimuòkww gùoquzonsukaégok xuzàulhástutsimùukww xuzàokágotsimùokww,
náa xulhístuw náa gùoquzostukígok xukígolùow hií?
so / it is from one to half more / the bird can lay an egg over the course of a day / the bird numbers at one and half more / the egg reaches the number of one and half more / well / the bird would be numbered / well /the bird would lay the egg over the course of one (day) / the egg would reach such a number / what?
If a hen and a half need a day and a half to lay an egg and a half, how many eggs can one hen lay in one day?
There's a few ways to do statements like this, but the most interesting involves using the tí and hé particles, but hé moves between tí and the modified predicate, rather than following the predicate. (This is one of two cases (so far) where hé precedes, rather than follows, its head predicate. The other is when hé and an interrogative particle are applied to the same predicate.)eldin raigmore wrote:Did you know that Jack Horner (who sat in a corner eating a Christmas pie) was the Jack that built the house in which the malt lay?
How would you say or ask that in Feayran?
E.g.,
Háa kusanàinhlhálkuda hé, tí hé ttsokulkulhájol.
háa k<u-san<ài>nh-lh-á-lk:u>da hé tí hé ttok<u-lk:u-lh-á-j:o>l
look going<LEAD-lake<ABL.FOLLOW>-ESSENTIAL-IND-MASC:LEAD.SG> DEF only DEF building<LEAD-MASC:LEAD.SG-ESSENTIAL-IND-1:INAN.SG>
look / he came from the lake / that one // only one / that one / he built my (shelter)
That man from the lake region is the same one who built my shelter, you know.
It would be...very messy :Peldin raigmore wrote:Remember my question about conditional ("if") constructions?
I forgot the "else" part
OK, so, now, suppose we have nine (probably simple) clauses, which I'll abbreviate as follows;
R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, and Z.
How would you say:or, to make it a bit less like C or PASCAL or ALGOL or some such programming language,Code: Select all
IF (IF (R) THEN {S} ELSE {T} ENDIF) THEN {IF (U) THEN {V} ELSE {W} ENDIF} ELSE {IF (X) THEN {Y} ELSE {Z} ENDIF} ENDIF
How would you say,
"If (if R then S else T) then (if U then V else W) else (if X then Y else Z)."?
As before, the subjunctive mood will be everywhere, with causal relations drawn using incorporated auxiliaries (in lative position on protases, and ablative position on apodoses). Interjections and auxiliary predicates will also be involved to draw the upper-level relationships.
In general, "else" is indicated with an internally-negated auxiliary predicate marked in the usual way to show a causal relationship with the second apodosis. So, an abbreviated gloss would look like:
x<SBJV-AUX<LAT>> y<SBJV> AUX<NEG-SBJV-AUX<LAT>> z<SBJV>
if x / then y / if not / then z
If x, then y; else, z.
So, your example could be translated by using interjections to mark the boundaries between the different relationships, and auxiliary predicates to show causal relationships between one sub-structure and the next. So:
déi R<SBJV-AUX<LAT>> S<SBJV> AUX<NEG-SBJV-AUX<LAT>> T<SBJV>, náa úk AUX<SBJV-AUX<LAT>> U<SBJV> V<AUX<ABL>-SBJV> AUX<NEG-SBJV> W<AUX<ABL>-SBJV>, úk AUX<NEG-SBJV-AUX<LAT>> X<SBJV> Y<AUX<ABL>-SBJV> AUX<NEG-SBJV> Z<AUX<ABL>-SBJV>
you_see / if R then something happens / S would happen / if not, then something happens / T would happen / well / but / if that is so then something happens / U would happen / if that is so, then V would happen / that would not happen / if that is so then W would happen / but / if that is not so then something happens / X would happen / if that is so then Y would happen / that would not happen / if that is so then Z would happen
If (if R then S else T) then (if U then V else W) else (if X then Y else Z).
There's an interesting quirk going on here, which happens a lot in complex conditional statements. A handy feature of conditionals in Feayran is that you can mark them in two different ways, because while all the involved predicates take the subjunctive mood, only one (either the protasis or the apodosis) needs to be marked with an incorporated auxiliary. So, you can have conditional statements with marked protases, or conditional statements with marked apodoses.
This can help to differentiate phrases from each other. For example, in the above, the second and third embedded conditional statements use marked apodoses. However, the auxiliaries used to mark the upper-level relationship (as well as the first embedded statement) use marked protases. This helps to set apart the embedded statements within the main statement.
Also, since the first embedded conditional is something of a hypothetical hypothetical, the protasis would probably be in the conjectural aspect.
This mostly just involves putting the interrogative particle hií in the right place.eldin raigmore wrote:BTW there are in all three obvious types of question you can ask about the "hen-and-a-half situation".
One is the type I asked already; how long would it take one hen to lay one egg (answer: a day and a half).
Here are the other two:
- If a hen and a half need a day and a half to lay an egg and a half, how many hens does it take to lay one egg in one day? (answer: a hen and a half.)
- If a hen and a half need a day and a half to lay an egg and a half, how many eggs can one hen lay in one day? (answer: two-thirds of an egg.)
Déi xuzàosaétsimuòkww gùoquzonsukaégok xuzàulhástutsimùukww xuzàokágotsimùokww,
náa xulhístuw hií xukígozow gùoquzostukígok?
so / it is from one to half more / the bird can lay an egg over the course of a day / the bird numbers at one and half more / the egg reaches the number of one and half more / well / the bird would be numbered / what / the egg would reach the number of one / the bird would lay the egg over the course of one (day)
If a hen and a half need a day and a half to lay an egg and a half, how many hens does it take to lay one egg in one day?
Déi xuzàosaétsimuòkww gùoquzonsukaégok xuzàulhástutsimùukww xuzàokágotsimùokww,
náa xulhístuw náa gùoquzostukígok xukígolùow hií?
so / it is from one to half more / the bird can lay an egg over the course of a day / the bird numbers at one and half more / the egg reaches the number of one and half more / well / the bird would be numbered / well /the bird would lay the egg over the course of one (day) / the egg would reach such a number / what?
If a hen and a half need a day and a half to lay an egg and a half, how many eggs can one hen lay in one day?
任何事物的发展都是物极必反,否极泰来。
- eldin raigmore
- korean
- Posts: 6352
- Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
- Location: SouthEast Michigan
Re: Hiding Waters Feayran
Thanks! Hopefully it made sense...it's hard to lay it out in a visually accessible way within the confines of the forum syntax. Can I clarify anything?eldin raigmore wrote:.... Wow! Thanks!
I'm almost ready to post the next part about broader discourse dynamics. Anyone have other comments or questions in the meantime?
任何事物的发展都是物极必反,否极泰来。