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PostPosted: Mon 20 Feb 2012, 20:00 
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Ketsuban wrote:
absolutive, which marks the object of a transitive verb and the core object of an intransitive verb;
ergative, which marks the agent of a transitive verb;
abessive, which marks a lack of the marked noun;
partitive, which marks a noun selected from a larger group;
vocative, which marks an identifier;
dative, which marks the indirect object of a transitive verb or the recipient or beneficiary of an item or action;
genitive, which indicates a noun as modifying another noun;
instrumental, which marks the means by which the subject does something;
equative, which marks comparison;
egressive, which marks the beginning of an action;
terminative, which marks the end of an action;
temporal, which marks a time;
ablative, which marks motion away from something;
allative, which marks motion onto something;
comitative, which marks companionship or grouping;
elative, which marks motion out of something;
illative, which marks motion into something;
inessive, which marks motion inside something;
lative, which marks motion to something; and
perlative, which marks motion through, across, or along something.


I've been taking a closer look at your local cases (those) that usually express spatial movement and/or location). Customarily, local cases can be divided into:
(1) Those that express movement to something.
(2) Those that express movement from something.
(3) Those that express location.

One could also add: (4) those that express path, or movement across something, but I'll focus on (1)-(3).

When it comes to (1), you seem to have a three-way distinction, between illative (which we may call an 'inner local case'), allative (which we may call an 'outer local case'), and lative (which we may call a 'general local case')

What's your rationale for distinguishing these three? Do you need a general lative case, if you have an illative and an allative case? In what situations would you used the respective cases?

When it comes to (2), you only seem to have a two-way distinction, between the 'inner' elative and ablative. I assume that The ablative may correspond to both the allative and the lative. Am I right? But then why do you only have a two-way distinction among the 'from'-cases, when you have a three-way distinction among the 'to-cases'?

When it comes (3), you list a general 'locative' case. You also list an inessive case. This could be interpreted as an 'inner' case, corresponding to the illative and the elative ones. But you say it's for motion rather than location, which is a bit confusing. You later add an 'adessive' case, which would presumably be the 'outer local case'.


Code:
            Motion from:    Motion to:    Location:
'Outer'     ablative            allative       (adessive??)
'Inner'      elative             illative        (inessive??)
'General'   (ablative??)       lative          locative


Does the above table accurately represent your system of local cases?

Ketsuban wrote:
auxiliary, for the arguments of auxiliary verbs


Which argument? The subject? The object? (But wouldn't the object of an auxiliary verb typically be a verb phrase??). Can you give any example sentences to show how this case works? (The same also for your other cases; it'd be much more interesting with sample sentences than just a long list of case names.)

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PostPosted: Mon 20 Feb 2012, 20:03 
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Personally, I feel like you have way too many cases. For instance, according to Wikipedia, Finnish only has 15 cases and Estonian has 14, (and not all of them are really used!), and these two are languages are generally considered to be the more "extreme" cases. My suggestion is to combine some of the cases that are similar enough to each other, since their meaning is nearly the same anyways. In many languages a case might have more than one use. Additionally, as said above, in a given language with cases, not all the cases it has might be used, and not to mention that even things that may be expressed in case can be expressed through other means, such as particles or sentence structure. Lastly, can you show examples of your cases? It's better that way than just saying "oh this is for comparison," since not every language uses the "same" case in the same way, because in reality the case names are just things linguists use to conveniently group cases together, even though they might have different (but similar) functions in different languages.

Hope that helps.

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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb 2012, 02:14 
cuneiform
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xingoxa wrote:
How do you express, for example, duration or extent in time? Or starting and end points? How do you express, for example:

He slept for two hours.

She will be busy from the 16th of April until the 4th of June.

He will be working throughout the summer.

???


slept.3PS.HUM hours-PER two-TEMP

be.3PS.HUM-FUT sixteen-TEMP April-EGR four-TEMP June-EGR

work.PASS.3PS.HUM-FUT summer-TEMP-PER

xingoxa wrote:
Ketsuban wrote:
[*]videris, for observers


Explain, please.


evolve.3PPL PL-animal Darwin-VID -> According to Darwin, animals evolve.
turn.4PS-IMP bolt-ERG this.manner-direction-TRNS shop-manual-VID -> The shop manual says to turn the bolt this way.

xingoxa wrote:
Code:
            Motion from:    Motion to:    Location:
'Outer'     ablative            allative       (adessive??)
'Inner'      elative             illative        (inessive??)
'General'   (ablative??)       lative          locative


Does the above table accurately represent your system of local cases?


Yes, except I don't see a locative anywhere???

xingoxa wrote:
Ketsuban wrote:
auxiliary, for the arguments of auxiliary verbs


Which argument? The subject? The object? (But wouldn't the object of an auxiliary verb typically be a verb phrase??). Can you give any example sentences to show how this case works? (The same also for your other cases; it'd be much more interesting with sample sentences than just a long list of case names.)


Shit, I forgot to remove the auxiliary before posting that.

(Alright.)

cybrxkhan wrote:
Personally, I feel like you have way too many cases. For instance, according to Wikipedia, Finnish only has 15 cases and Estonian has 14, (and not all of them are really used!), and these two are languages are generally considered to be the more "extreme" cases. My suggestion is to combine some of the cases that are similar enough to each other, since their meaning is nearly the same anyways. In many languages a case might have more than one use. Additionally, as said above, in a given language with cases, not all the cases it has might be used, and not to mention that even things that may be expressed in case can be expressed through other means, such as particles or sentence structure. Lastly, can you show examples of your cases? It's better that way than just saying "oh this is for comparison," since not every language uses the "same" case in the same way, because in reality the case names are just things linguists use to conveniently group cases together, even though they might have different (but similar) functions in different languages.

Hope that helps.


Examples? Will do.

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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb 2012, 10:51 
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cybrxkhan wrote:
Personally, I feel like you have way too many cases. For instance, according to Wikipedia, Finnish only has 15 cases and Estonian has 14, (and not all of them are really used!), and these two are languages are generally considered to be the more "extreme" cases.


Basically true. One can analyse a few Caucasian languages as having more cases. But their 'extra cases' basically consist combination of local cases with location markers ('inside', 'outside', 'above', 'nearby, 'behind' etc.). Thereby, one can form a large array of cases with specialised meanings (like 'from behind' (ablative + 'behind'), 'to underneath' (lative + 'underneath'), etc. Whether one wants to analyse all these as cases on their own right may to some extent be a matter of definition.

What I object to is not so much the number of cases, but the fact the the poster has presented not so much a case system, but rather a list of case labels. The explanation behind each case label is extremely brief, and the selection of cases does not seem to be very systematic.

Ketsuban wrote:
Yes, except I don't see a locative anywhere???


I misread your post, sorry. OTOH, the lack of a locative makes the case system less balanced. Now there is only one 'general' local case (the lative), but no corresponding case for 'movement from' and 'location'.

Ketsuban wrote:
slept.3PS.HUM hours-PER two-TEMP


Does 'TEMP' modify 'two' in relation to 'hours', 'two' in relation to the head verb ('sleep') or is it a clitic that modifies the whole phrase 'two hours' in relation to the head verb ('sleep')?

work.PASS.3PS.HUM-FUT summer-TEMP-PER[/quote]

Could one analyse the combined TEMP-PER as a case in its own, rather than as an instance of double case marking?

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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb 2012, 18:28 
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xingoxa wrote:
Ketsuban wrote:
Yes, except I don't see a locative anywhere???


I misread your post, sorry. OTOH, the lack of a locative makes the case system less balanced. Now there is only one 'general' local case (the lative), but no corresponding case for 'movement from' and 'location'.


The essive can be used to mark (temporary) location; for permanent location, the allative could be used. The ablative marks movement away from things.

xingoxa wrote:
Ketsuban wrote:
slept.3PS.HUM hours-PER two-TEMP


Does 'TEMP' modify 'two' in relation to 'hours', 'two' in relation to the head verb ('sleep') or is it a clitic that modifies the whole phrase 'two hours' in relation to the head verb ('sleep')?

work.PASS.3PS.HUM-FUT summer-TEMP-PER


Could one analyse the combined TEMP-PER as a case in its own, rather than as an instance of double case marking?[/quote]

One could, but that wouldn't be the prevailing opinion (at least I don't think so).

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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb 2012, 20:02 
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Ketsuban wrote:
One could, but that wouldn't be the prevailing opinion (at least I don't think so).


Couldn't one regard TEMP as somehow modifying the case-marker (PER), or at least form a unit with it (much like locational markers - like 'inside', 'above', etc. - can be said to form units with local cases)? It seems to me like TEMP would here in fact behaves much like a locational marker.

Could one not just drop TEMP, and say just summer.PER? Or could summer.PER be interpreted in any other way?

Are there any other instances of case-stacking (multiple cases on the same word?) Are there fixed order in which the case-markers occur?

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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb 2012, 20:38 
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Ketsuban wrote:
[*]partitive, which marks a noun selected from a larger group;

What's that?

If it is just:
I saw ONE BOY of them. and ONE BOY of them saw me.
the clauses will be ambigue.

I would suppose that 'of them' would be in the partitive.
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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb 2012, 22:02 
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Do all cases occur in all six noun-classes? Is there any neutralisation of cases in some nouns? Do the case-markers have any allomorphs, or are case-markers always the same, for all nouns?

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PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb 2012, 23:16 
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xingoxa wrote:
Do all cases occur in all six noun-classes? Is there any neutralisation of cases in some nouns? Do the case-markers have any allomorphs, or are case-markers always the same, for all nouns?


I've not worked out the interaction between cases and noun classes yet.

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