New CBB

Discuss constructed languages, cultures, worlds, related sciences and much more!
It is currently Sun 26 May 2013, 11:13

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 10:44 
roman
roman

Joined: Sat 06 Nov 2010, 09:04
Posts: 660
While biking to deliver freaking tax papers an idea struck me so hard I almost fell off the bike.

Fusion of two pronouns.

For example instead of saying "I hit him" one would say "Iim hit", where "Iim" represent both "I" and "him" at the same time.

I was wondering if anyone else have thought of this, if its feasable in a natural language and such.

Feel free to discuss/come with oppinions =)

_________________
Visit the growing Conlang Wiki!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 11:33 
cuneiform
cuneiform
User avatar

Joined: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 21:56
Posts: 94
Do you mean like in spoken French ?

Code:
J'le frappe
/ʒlə fʁap/

j'-le  frappe
1.SG.SBJ-3.SG.OBJ  hit

I hit him


Many languages must do something similar.

_________________
grammaire du jrawélien - textes - lexique - miscellanées


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 11:51 
metal
metal
User avatar

Joined: Mon 23 Aug 2010, 01:41
Posts: 1626
Location: PL
Hungarian has particular fused suffix for 1>2:
szeretek - I love
szeretlek - I love you

_________________
:pol: (native)
:eng: :fra: (learning)

--
Języki sztuczne i lingwistyka, po polsku.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 12:17 
admin
admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue 11 May 2010, 05:46
Posts: 1235
Location: Upp.
Cervenian has these kinds of double pronouns.

Klingon has verbal prefixes which encode both subject and object.

_________________
Image КЕРВЕНСКИЙ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 12:41 
roman
roman

Joined: Sat 06 Nov 2010, 09:04
Posts: 660
bororo wrote:
Do you mean like in spoken French ?

Code:
J'le frappe
/ʒlə fʁap/

j'-le  frappe
1.SG.SBJ-3.SG.OBJ  hit

I hit him


Many languages must do something similar.



I wouldn't call those that mostly because they can be analyzed seperately while I speak of where "i+Him" has nothign in common with "She+him", atleast anymore.

Aszev wrote:
Cervenian has these kinds of double pronouns.

Klingon has verbal prefixes which encode both subject and object.


No, those are individual prefixes for it, they are still seperate in meaning then.

Milyamd wrote:
Hungarian has particular fused suffix for 1>2:
szeretek - I love
szeretlek - I love you

Care to show what each part mean?

_________________
Visit the growing Conlang Wiki!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 12:51 
air
air
User avatar

Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 04:26
Posts: 1154
I had thought of this in one of my conlangs too. I decided verbs would not decline for person, so I fused pronouns in transitive sentences to make them shorter and more compact, which I like.

_________________
そうだ。死んでいる人も勃起することが出来る。
俺はその証だ。
Spoiler: show
Ǧ Š Ȟ Ž Č

ǧ š ŋ ȟ ž č

:swe: [:D] :vgtl: [:D] :eng: [:)] :ita: [:|] :lkt: [:'(]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 13:32 
roman
roman

Joined: Sat 06 Nov 2010, 09:04
Posts: 660
rickardspaghetti wrote:
I had thought of this in one of my conlangs too. I decided verbs would not decline for person, so I fused pronouns in transitive sentences to make them shorter and more compact, which I like.

I was thinking of doing the same, it would add to the already existing massive pronoun table but its an interesting concept to add.

_________________
Visit the growing Conlang Wiki!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 14:26 
air
air
User avatar

Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 04:26
Posts: 1154
zelos wrote:
rickardspaghetti wrote:
I had thought of this in one of my conlangs too. I decided verbs would not decline for person, so I fused pronouns in transitive sentences to make them shorter and more compact, which I like.

I was thinking of doing the same, it would add to the already existing massive pronoun table but its an interesting concept to add.

Would you count two fused pronouns as one pronoun, or would you count it as two?

_________________
そうだ。死んでいる人も勃起することが出来る。
俺はその証だ。
Spoiler: show
Ǧ Š Ȟ Ž Č

ǧ š ŋ ȟ ž č

:swe: [:D] :vgtl: [:D] :eng: [:)] :ita: [:|] :lkt: [:'(]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 15:01 
cuneiform
cuneiform
User avatar

Joined: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 21:56
Posts: 94
Once genders, clusivity, oblique arguments and so on are factored in, such a language could get quite compact...

Code:
She told us about him through the conical object

A o

3S.F.SBJ.1P.OBJ.3S.M.ABL.3S.CLASS.INST tell.PST

_________________
grammaire du jrawélien - textes - lexique - miscellanées


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 15:03 
roman
roman

Joined: Sat 06 Nov 2010, 09:04
Posts: 660
rickardspaghetti wrote:
zelos wrote:
rickardspaghetti wrote:
I had thought of this in one of my conlangs too. I decided verbs would not decline for person, so I fused pronouns in transitive sentences to make them shorter and more compact, which I like.

I was thinking of doing the same, it would add to the already existing massive pronoun table but its an interesting concept to add.

Would you count two fused pronouns as one pronoun, or would you count it as two?

I would count it as a single pronoun because its impossible ti divide it

_________________
Visit the growing Conlang Wiki!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 15:23 
admin
admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue 11 May 2010, 05:46
Posts: 1235
Location: Upp.
zelos wrote:
Aszev wrote:
Klingon has verbal prefixes which encode both subject and object.


No, those are individual prefixes for it, they are still seperate in meaning then.

If you're just gonna assume I'm wrong, why ask the question to begin with?

http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Klingon_prefixes

_________________
Image КЕРВЕНСКИЙ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 15:24 
MVP
MVP
User avatar

Joined: Sun 22 Aug 2010, 18:46
Posts: 3790
I think some polysynthetic languages have combined subject-object affixes, so that would not be too unnatural.

Perhaps you could also have some pre-verbal particle, that's inflected for subject and object.

zelos wrote:
Would you count two fused pronouns as one pronoun, or would you count it as two?

I would count it as a single pronoun because its impossible ti divide it[/quote]

Are we talking about 'pure' polyexponence, or about 'regular' fusion? A subject and an object pronoun could be fused, without forming one single combined polyexponetial subject-object pronoun.

_________________
constructedlanguages.net


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 15:28 
air
air
User avatar

Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 04:26
Posts: 1154
xingoxa wrote:
I think some polysynthetic languages have combined subject-object affixes, so that would not be too unnatural.

Perhaps you could also have some pre-verbal particle, that's inflected for subject and object.

zelos wrote:
Would you count two fused pronouns as one pronoun, or would you count it as two?

I would count it as a single pronoun because its impossible ti divide it


Are we talking about 'pure' polyexponence, or about 'regular' fusion? A subject and an object pronoun could be fused, without forming one single combined polyexponetial subject-object pronoun.[/quote]
What does polyexponence mean?

_________________
そうだ。死んでいる人も勃起することが出来る。
俺はその証だ。
Spoiler: show
Ǧ Š Ȟ Ž Č

ǧ š ŋ ȟ ž č

:swe: [:D] :vgtl: [:D] :eng: [:)] :ita: [:|] :lkt: [:'(]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 15:46 
roman
roman

Joined: Sat 06 Nov 2010, 09:04
Posts: 660
Aszev wrote:
zelos wrote:
Aszev wrote:
Klingon has verbal prefixes which encode both subject and object.


No, those are individual prefixes for it, they are still seperate in meaning then.

If you're just gonna assume I'm wrong, why ask the question to begin with?

http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Klingon_prefixes

I am familiar with that, they are still not pronouns but affixes.

Quote:
Are we talking about 'pure' polyexponence, or about 'regular' fusion? A subject and an object pronoun could be fused, without forming one single combined polyexponetial subject-object pronoun.


http://wals.info/chapter/21

I say pure polyexponence then if I understand it correctly

The word for "I-him" has nothing in common (or not analyticly so) with "I-you" and "She-him"

_________________
Visit the growing Conlang Wiki!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 15:50 
shadowlight
shadowlight

Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 16:42
Posts: 913
Aszev wrote:
Klingon has verbal prefixes which encode both subject and object.


Exactly. As does Kala.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 15:50 
MVP
MVP
User avatar

Joined: Sun 22 Aug 2010, 18:46
Posts: 3790
rickardspaghetti wrote:
What does polyexponence mean?


When you have one phoneme, encoding two or more different things, can't in any way be divided in two or more parts, corresponding to the different meanings.

There could be more moderate forms of fusion. When two morphemes are stuck together, it might trigger sound changes that makes it impossible to tell at which segment one morpheme ends and the other starts. But it could still make sense to analyse it as two different morphemes.

_________________
constructedlanguages.net


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 15:55 
admin
admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue 11 May 2010, 05:46
Posts: 1235
Location: Upp.
zelos wrote:
Aszev wrote:
zelos wrote:
Aszev wrote:
Klingon has verbal prefixes which encode both subject and object.


No, those are individual prefixes for it, they are still seperate in meaning then.

If you're just gonna assume I'm wrong, why ask the question to begin with?

http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Klingon_prefixes

I am familiar with that, they are still not pronouns but affixes.

True, but that's not what you objected to in your post.

_________________
Image КЕРВЕНСКИЙ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 16:00 
roman
roman

Joined: Sat 06 Nov 2010, 09:04
Posts: 660
Aszev wrote:
zelos wrote:
Aszev wrote:
zelos wrote:
Aszev wrote:
Klingon has verbal prefixes which encode both subject and object.


No, those are individual prefixes for it, they are still seperate in meaning then.

If you're just gonna assume I'm wrong, why ask the question to begin with?

http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Klingon_prefixes

I am familiar with that, they are still not pronouns but affixes.

True, but that's not what you objected to in your post.

it's what I meant, though I might have put it into word in a poor manner. Bad on my part

_________________
Visit the growing Conlang Wiki!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 16:02 
air
air
User avatar

Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 04:26
Posts: 1154
xingoxa wrote:
rickardspaghetti wrote:
What does polyexponence mean?


When you have one phoneme, encoding two or more different things, can't in any way be divided in two or more parts, corresponding to the different meanings.

There could be more moderate forms of fusion. When two morphemes are stuck together, it might trigger sound changes that makes it impossible to tell at which segment one morpheme ends and the other starts. But it could still make sense to analyse it as two different morphemes.

In that case, I think my pronouns were not polyexponential. You could tell from looking at them that they were derived from two different pronouns that started out as separate, but later fused.

_________________
そうだ。死んでいる人も勃起することが出来る。
俺はその証だ。
Spoiler: show
Ǧ Š Ȟ Ž Č

ǧ š ŋ ȟ ž č

:swe: [:D] :vgtl: [:D] :eng: [:)] :ita: [:|] :lkt: [:'(]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 23:09 
puremetal
puremetal

Joined: Sat 15 Jan 2011, 16:59
Posts: 992
Location: イサカ
My conlang Cednitit technically doesn't have pronouns, but it does have prefixes on the verb which are fusional agreement affixes that indicate the person and number of subject and object.

The list does get quite large, especially when there are two sets, one for nonpast and one for past tense, but I think that's fine.

Image

_________________
力在公蝦米????

flags
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group