Tloko / Omya redux
Tloko / Omya redux
So, I have decided to sort of start anew with Omya (Kala glyphs). The syllabary will definitely stay, as it is probably as good as it can be, but the logograms were made hastily, and I'm sorta not sure how I wish to proceed.
What you see here are some potential logograms made by editing syllabograms and then rotating them. Given that there are over 200 syllabograms, there are thousands and thousands of possible logographic glyphs.
Here's my quandary; how to decide or determine meaning. Do I:
1) randomly select a glyph and assign a meaning
2) base the majority of glyphs on Hanzi, Mayan, Egyptian, etc
3) look for a glyph to somewhat resemble the meaning (highly subjective)
4) select glyphs based on the phonetic values from the syllable glyphs which they were derived
Input, opinions, ideas, comments...?
What you see here are some potential logograms made by editing syllabograms and then rotating them. Given that there are over 200 syllabograms, there are thousands and thousands of possible logographic glyphs.
Here's my quandary; how to decide or determine meaning. Do I:
1) randomly select a glyph and assign a meaning
2) base the majority of glyphs on Hanzi, Mayan, Egyptian, etc
3) look for a glyph to somewhat resemble the meaning (highly subjective)
4) select glyphs based on the phonetic values from the syllable glyphs which they were derived
Input, opinions, ideas, comments...?
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- cuneiform
- Posts: 146
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux
I like the look of these glyphs. My own two cents is I would choose option 3 or 4, mostly because they seem the most diachronically plausible (although 4 might be putting the cart before the horse; I'm not aware of any languages where a logographic system derived from a syllabary that way).
Re: Tloko / Omya redux
I think most logographic syllabaries come from pictographic systems, so it would likely be mostly 3, although you would expect so arbitraryness and probably also some relation to the syllabary. I can imagine if glyph X that was used eg for 'pala' came to be used for just 'pa', the glyph might be doubled XX to mean 'pala'. As your system is somewhat restricted, I wouldn't expect too many glyphs as they would start being very easily confused. I would expect lots of logographic compounding, not necessarily at all related to the individual phonetic or even semantic elements.
Re: Tloko / Omya redux
Yes, yes...kanejam wrote:I think most logographic syllabaries come from pictographic systems, so it would likely be mostly 3, although you would expect so arbitraryness and probably also some relation to the syllabary.
Interesting.kanejam wrote:I can imagine if glyph X that was used eg for 'pala' came to be used for just 'pa', the glyph might be doubled XX to mean 'pala'. As your system is somewhat restricted, I wouldn't expect too many glyphs as they would start being very easily confused.
Alrighty, then.kanejam wrote:I would expect lots of logographic compounding, not necessarily at all related to the individual phonetic or even semantic elements.
All of what you said is completely reasonable and well informed. A scholarly answer that I appreciate, very much.
Option 3 seems good. It's just gonna take for-bleeding-ever.protondonor wrote:My own two cents is I would choose option 3 or 4
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux
De nada! It wasn't particularly scholarly, it's more just what happens in real world syllabaries. Clawgrip would be the one to go to for a scholarly answer!masako wrote:All of what you said is completely reasonable and well informed. A scholarly answer that I appreciate, very much.
Having said what I said above, I'll add that you could just base all your logograms on Hanzi etc as they would be warped beyond recognition. It'll still be interesting and you can add in irregularities later on, but it would save you a lot of work.
Re: Tloko / Omya redux
2016 will be the year of the glyph for Kala.
My goal is to have 500 logograms by the end of 2016. 600 if circumstances permit.
Stay tuned.
/necro
My goal is to have 500 logograms by the end of 2016. 600 if circumstances permit.
Stay tuned.
/necro
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- Thrice Xandvii
- runic
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- Location: Carnassus
Re: Tloko / Omya redux
Indeed I shall!masako wrote:Stay tuned.
Re: Tloko / Omya redux
As of right now, there are 175-ish defined glyphs, listed here:
http://i.imgur.com/qmeswXQ.png | http://i.imgur.com/iQOIajo.png | and http://i.imgur.com/GjwbvA7.png
I've devised a "radical" scheme that I like, so, I will have two ways of displaying the glyphs, 1st listed in "pataka" (alphabetical) order, then by glyph radicals.
Subject to change, these are the radicals, along with variations:
Basically, if the glyph is dominated (i.e. takes up the majority of the nine points) by a radical listed, it belongs to that radical.
Updates to follow.
http://i.imgur.com/qmeswXQ.png | http://i.imgur.com/iQOIajo.png | and http://i.imgur.com/GjwbvA7.png
I've devised a "radical" scheme that I like, so, I will have two ways of displaying the glyphs, 1st listed in "pataka" (alphabetical) order, then by glyph radicals.
Subject to change, these are the radicals, along with variations:
Basically, if the glyph is dominated (i.e. takes up the majority of the nine points) by a radical listed, it belongs to that radical.
Updates to follow.
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- Thrice Xandvii
- runic
- Posts: 2698
- Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:13
- Location: Carnassus
Re: Tloko / Omya redux
(As a slight aside, you had a script you used as a hand-written version of these glyphs, didn't you? I can't recall what you called it though. But, I'd love to see some more of that along with your developments of the Tloko characters... That is if it's still a thing.)
Re: Tloko / Omya redux
Yes, the handwritten version is still alive, though, I only use it to write syllables...or, to put it another way, when using the handwritten version, glyphs are not used.
Here are the "ka" syllables:
Here are the "ka" syllables:
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux
The basic principles for writing Omyatloko are simple, namely that writing characters should be economical, with the fewest hand movements to write the most strokes possible. This promotes writing speed, accuracy, and readability. This idea is particularly important since as learners progress, characters often get more complex. Since stroke order also aids learning and memorization.
General Guidelines:
Write from top to bottom, and left to right.
Horizontal before vertical.
Outside before center (unless otherwise indicated).
Enclosures before exteriors.
Dots and minor strokes last.
A few examples:
Because each glyph uses all nine points in a 3x3 grid, each point is named to define and explain stroke order
In these examples you can see that each point is not pronounced or listed as it may not be a juncture or stopping point for the brush. However, each point is covered by the brushstroke. A colon ":" marks a raise of the pen/brush.
General Guidelines:
Write from top to bottom, and left to right.
Horizontal before vertical.
Outside before center (unless otherwise indicated).
Enclosures before exteriors.
Dots and minor strokes last.
A few examples:
Because each glyph uses all nine points in a 3x3 grid, each point is named to define and explain stroke order
In these examples you can see that each point is not pronounced or listed as it may not be a juncture or stopping point for the brush. However, each point is covered by the brushstroke. A colon ":" marks a raise of the pen/brush.
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- kiwikami
- roman
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux
It's great to see this again, masako; this is a really beautiful system!
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.
| | ASL | | |
- Frislander
- mayan
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux
I do like the look of this, but I can't escape the feeling that it looks and seems to work a lot like the 9now apparently inactive) Pseudoglyphs (see also Omniglot).
Edit: EDIT: actually I've checked the page and it seems you're already aware of its existance, sorry.
Re: Tloko / Omya redux
I'm glad you enjoy it. I have fallen deep under its spell.kiwikami wrote:It's great to see this again, masako; this is a really beautiful system!
Good. Thank you.Frislander wrote:I do like the look of this
Now, the 3x3 grid is a common starting point for many "glyph-type" conscripts, but what is important here is to know that the genesis of this script actually comes from Ngala, created and published a few years before Andrew had begun to publish info on Pseudoglyphs. However, I will say that his site has continued to spur me on. His genius is magnificent.
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux
Still impressive ...
Especially the outline style...
The only thing that makes me uncomfortable, are the glyphs in several pieces...
But it's an outside opinion of the project that comes more from my way of working logograms...
(for myself I use a 5x5)...
The change for 3x3 and the outline style make it very near pseudoglyph style...
a Maya style without the pictography madness...
Especially the outline style...
The only thing that makes me uncomfortable, are the glyphs in several pieces...
But it's an outside opinion of the project that comes more from my way of working logograms...
It seems to use a 4x4 grid...masako wrote:Now, the 3x3 grid is a common starting point for many "glyph-type" conscripts, but what is important here is to know that the genesis of this script actually comes from Ngala
(for myself I use a 5x5)...
The change for 3x3 and the outline style make it very near pseudoglyph style...
a Maya style without the pictography madness...
Re: Tloko / Omya redux
That's only a consequence of the handwritten version.lsd wrote:The only thing that makes me uncomfortable, are the glyphs in several pieces
A friend referred to them as "abstract ideographs complimented by a syllabary."lsd wrote:a Maya style without the pictography madness
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux
I see no problem with glyphs being in several pieces. cf. j, Ξ, Ы, હ, ஊ, ప, ฐ, 늜, 띢, い, ふ, シ, 信, 桑, 彩, 洲. Seems fine to me.
Re: Tloko / Omya redux
Thank you. With your breadth of knowledge I am assured that I've not strayed too far from 'natural'.clawgrip wrote:I see no problem with glyphs being in several pieces. cf. j, Ξ, Ы, હ, ஊ, ప, ฐ, 늜, 띢, い, ふ, シ, 信, 桑, 彩, 洲. Seems fine to me.
yeah, but, at a distance, or even an angle, several of these look much more like a wall to me:lsd wrote:giving an appearance of Peruvian wall rather than Mayan glyph...
http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/de ... Panels.jpg
http://www.shieldsaroundtheworld.com/origs/P0000611.jpg
https://elaineelliott.files.wordpress.c ... es-104.jpg
https://thumb9.shutterstock.com/display ... 850966.jpg
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Re: Tloko / Omya redux
I would do what you did with Kala: originality, some subjectivity, and some easter eggs (e.g. yama).masako wrote: Here's my quandary; how to decide or determine meaning. Do I:
1) randomly select a glyph and assign a meaning
2) base the majority of glyphs on Hanzi, Mayan, Egyptian, etc
3) look for a glyph to somewhat resemble the meaning (highly subjective)
4) select glyphs based on the phonetic values from the syllable glyphs which they were derived
Input, opinions, ideas, comments...?
I mean, 'cept for the easter eggs, don't Chinese and Egyptian sort of do this anyway.
For example, your glyph for flower is simple and elegant, and clearly shows sepals, petals and the pistil - very clear!
That has to be one of the most original, economical, and quite self-evidentmost glyphs I have ever seen.
Also, that, or glyphs like it, could be a great for concepts like 'open', 'unfold' , and who knows what else.
It is for you to only unfold them.