Tloko / Omya redux

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
masako
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1813
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 16:42

Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako »

So, I have decided to sort of start anew with Omya (Kala glyphs). The syllabary will definitely stay, as it is probably as good as it can be, but the logograms were made hastily, and I'm sorta not sure how I wish to proceed.

Image

What you see here are some potential logograms made by editing syllabograms and then rotating them. Given that there are over 200 syllabograms, there are thousands and thousands of possible logographic glyphs.

Here's my quandary; how to decide or determine meaning. Do I:

1) randomly select a glyph and assign a meaning

2) base the majority of glyphs on Hanzi, Mayan, Egyptian, etc

3) look for a glyph to somewhat resemble the meaning (highly subjective)

4) select glyphs based on the phonetic values from the syllable glyphs which they were derived

Input, opinions, ideas, comments...?
g

o

n

e
protondonor
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 146
Joined: 07 Mar 2015 03:59

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by protondonor »

I like the look of these glyphs. My own two cents is I would choose option 3 or 4, mostly because they seem the most diachronically plausible (although 4 might be putting the cart before the horse; I'm not aware of any languages where a logographic system derived from a syllabary that way).
User avatar
kanejam
greek
greek
Posts: 714
Joined: 07 Jun 2013 07:50
Location: NZ

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by kanejam »

I think most logographic syllabaries come from pictographic systems, so it would likely be mostly 3, although you would expect so arbitraryness and probably also some relation to the syllabary. I can imagine if glyph X that was used eg for 'pala' came to be used for just 'pa', the glyph might be doubled XX to mean 'pala'. As your system is somewhat restricted, I wouldn't expect too many glyphs as they would start being very easily confused. I would expect lots of logographic compounding, not necessarily at all related to the individual phonetic or even semantic elements.
masako
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1813
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 16:42

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako »

kanejam wrote:I think most logographic syllabaries come from pictographic systems, so it would likely be mostly 3, although you would expect so arbitraryness and probably also some relation to the syllabary.
Yes, yes...
kanejam wrote:I can imagine if glyph X that was used eg for 'pala' came to be used for just 'pa', the glyph might be doubled XX to mean 'pala'. As your system is somewhat restricted, I wouldn't expect too many glyphs as they would start being very easily confused.
Interesting.
kanejam wrote:I would expect lots of logographic compounding, not necessarily at all related to the individual phonetic or even semantic elements.
Alrighty, then.

All of what you said is completely reasonable and well informed. A scholarly answer that I appreciate, very much.

protondonor wrote:My own two cents is I would choose option 3 or 4
Option 3 seems good. It's just gonna take for-bleeding-ever.
g

o

n

e
User avatar
kanejam
greek
greek
Posts: 714
Joined: 07 Jun 2013 07:50
Location: NZ

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by kanejam »

masako wrote:All of what you said is completely reasonable and well informed. A scholarly answer that I appreciate, very much.
De nada! It wasn't particularly scholarly, it's more just what happens in real world syllabaries. Clawgrip would be the one to go to for a scholarly answer!

Having said what I said above, I'll add that you could just base all your logograms on Hanzi etc as they would be warped beyond recognition. It'll still be interesting and you can add in irregularities later on, but it would save you a lot of work.
masako
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1813
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 16:42

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako »

2016 will be the year of the glyph for Kala.

My goal is to have 500 logograms by the end of 2016. 600 if circumstances permit.

Stay tuned.

/necro
g

o

n

e
User avatar
Thrice Xandvii
runic
runic
Posts: 2698
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:13
Location: Carnassus

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by Thrice Xandvii »

masako wrote:Stay tuned.
Indeed I shall!
Image
masako
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1813
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 16:42

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako »

As of right now, there are 175-ish defined glyphs, listed here:

http://i.imgur.com/qmeswXQ.png | http://i.imgur.com/iQOIajo.png | and http://i.imgur.com/GjwbvA7.png

I've devised a "radical" scheme that I like, so, I will have two ways of displaying the glyphs, 1st listed in "pataka" (alphabetical) order, then by glyph radicals.

Subject to change, these are the radicals, along with variations:

Image

Basically, if the glyph is dominated (i.e. takes up the majority of the nine points) by a radical listed, it belongs to that radical.

Updates to follow.
g

o

n

e
User avatar
Thrice Xandvii
runic
runic
Posts: 2698
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:13
Location: Carnassus

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by Thrice Xandvii »

(As a slight aside, you had a script you used as a hand-written version of these glyphs, didn't you? I can't recall what you called it though. But, I'd love to see some more of that along with your developments of the Tloko characters... That is if it's still a thing.)
Image
masako
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1813
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 16:42

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako »

Yes, the handwritten version is still alive, though, I only use it to write syllables...or, to put it another way, when using the handwritten version, glyphs are not used.

Here are the "ka" syllables:

Image
g

o

n

e
masako
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1813
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 16:42

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako »

The basic principles for writing Omyatloko are simple, namely that writing characters should be economical, with the fewest hand movements to write the most strokes possible. This promotes writing speed, accuracy, and readability. This idea is particularly important since as learners progress, characters often get more complex. Since stroke order also aids learning and memorization.

General Guidelines:

Write from top to bottom, and left to right.
Horizontal before vertical.
Outside before center (unless otherwise indicated).
Enclosures before exteriors.
Dots and minor strokes last.


A few examples:

Because each glyph uses all nine points in a 3x3 grid, each point is named to define and explain stroke order
Image

Image
In these examples you can see that each point is not pronounced or listed as it may not be a juncture or stopping point for the brush. However, each point is covered by the brushstroke. A colon ":" marks a raise of the pen/brush.
g

o

n

e
User avatar
kiwikami
roman
roman
Posts: 1203
Joined: 26 May 2012 17:24
Location: Oh, I don't know, I'm probably around here somewhere.

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by kiwikami »

It's great to see this again, masako; this is a really beautiful system!
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.

:eng: :mrgreen: | :fra: [:)] | ASL [:S] | :deu: [:|] | :tan: [:(] | :nav: [:'(]
User avatar
Frislander
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2088
Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
Location: The North

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by Frislander »

I do like the look of this, but I can't escape the feeling that it looks and seems to work a lot like the 9now apparently inactive) Pseudoglyphs (see also Omniglot).
Edit: EDIT: actually I've checked the page and it seems you're already aware of its existance, sorry.
masako
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1813
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 16:42

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako »

kiwikami wrote:It's great to see this again, masako; this is a really beautiful system!
I'm glad you enjoy it. I have fallen deep under its spell.
Frislander wrote:I do like the look of this
Good. Thank you.

Now, the 3x3 grid is a common starting point for many "glyph-type" conscripts, but what is important here is to know that the genesis of this script actually comes from Ngala, created and published a few years before Andrew had begun to publish info on Pseudoglyphs. However, I will say that his site has continued to spur me on. His genius is magnificent.
g

o

n

e
User avatar
lsd
greek
greek
Posts: 740
Joined: 11 Mar 2011 21:11
Contact:

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by lsd »

Still impressive ...
Especially the outline style...
The only thing that makes me uncomfortable, are the glyphs in several pieces...
But it's an outside opinion of the project that comes more from my way of working logograms...
masako wrote:Now, the 3x3 grid is a common starting point for many "glyph-type" conscripts, but what is important here is to know that the genesis of this script actually comes from Ngala
It seems to use a 4x4 grid...
(for myself I use a 5x5)...
The change for 3x3 and the outline style make it very near pseudoglyph style...
a Maya style without the pictography madness...
masako
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1813
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 16:42

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako »

lsd wrote:The only thing that makes me uncomfortable, are the glyphs in several pieces
That's only a consequence of the handwritten version.
lsd wrote:a Maya style without the pictography madness
A friend referred to them as "abstract ideographs complimented by a syllabary."
g

o

n

e
clawgrip
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2257
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 07:33
Location: Tokyo

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by clawgrip »

I see no problem with glyphs being in several pieces. cf. j, Ξ, Ы, હ, ஊ, ప, ฐ, 늜, 띢, い, ふ, シ, 信, 桑, 彩, 洲. Seems fine to me.
User avatar
lsd
greek
greek
Posts: 740
Joined: 11 Mar 2011 21:11
Contact:

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by lsd »

What disturbs me is that the regular square pattern seems to be artificially filled with piece additions ... such as a calligraphic regularity imposed by a standardized treatment ...
But this is not a problem in itself ... giving an appearance of Peruvian wall rather than Mayan glyph...
Image
masako
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1813
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 16:42

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by masako »

clawgrip wrote:I see no problem with glyphs being in several pieces. cf. j, Ξ, Ы, હ, ஊ, ప, ฐ, 늜, 띢, い, ふ, シ, 信, 桑, 彩, 洲. Seems fine to me.
Thank you. With your breadth of knowledge I am assured that I've not strayed too far from 'natural'.
lsd wrote:giving an appearance of Peruvian wall rather than Mayan glyph...
yeah, but, at a distance, or even an angle, several of these look much more like a wall to me:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/de ... Panels.jpg

http://www.shieldsaroundtheworld.com/origs/P0000611.jpg

https://elaineelliott.files.wordpress.c ... es-104.jpg

https://thumb9.shutterstock.com/display ... 850966.jpg
g

o

n

e
User avatar
Lambuzhao
korean
korean
Posts: 5405
Joined: 13 May 2012 02:57

Re: Tloko / Omya redux

Post by Lambuzhao »

masako wrote: Here's my quandary; how to decide or determine meaning. Do I:

1) randomly select a glyph and assign a meaning

2) base the majority of glyphs on Hanzi, Mayan, Egyptian, etc

3) look for a glyph to somewhat resemble the meaning (highly subjective)

4) select glyphs based on the phonetic values from the syllable glyphs which they were derived

Input, opinions, ideas, comments...?
I would do what you did with Kala: originality, some subjectivity, and some easter eggs (e.g. yama).
I mean, 'cept for the easter eggs, don't Chinese and Egyptian sort of do this anyway.

For example, your glyph for flower is simple and elegant, and clearly shows sepals, petals and the pistil - very clear!

That has to be one of the most original, economical, and quite self-evidentmost glyphs I have ever seen.
[+1]

Also, that, or glyphs like it, could be a great for concepts like 'open', 'unfold' , and who knows what else.

It is for you to only unfold them.
[;)]
Post Reply