The First of Many: The Retla Thread

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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by shimobaatar »

loglorn wrote:Pronouns work, for all ends, exactly like Nouns, taking those same prepositions, which i won't list again.
I assume you mean the ones outlined in this post?
loglorn wrote:There are no Third Person Pronouns. The distal determiner ki (that) can be used, but only for humans within sight range. In all other cases, one must use the appropriate classifier to the word that's being referred back to. When referring back to multiple entities that'd use different classifiers, thṣu is used.
loglorn wrote:Adjectives have a Restrictiveness contrast, whereas the Restrictive form restricts the reference.

[…]

Such contrast interacts with the Specificity contrast: The Restrictive form demands the noun to be Specific., but the Non-Restrictive form does not demand the noun to be Non-Specific, and can be used with both Specific and Non-Specific nouns.
[+1] Very cool ideas!
loglorn wrote:Adjectives can also be conjugated/declined (which one do you use when adjective pattern neither with verbs nor with nouns?) to form degrees of comparison with -ktlaj. This 'Ktlaj form' can be though of as a new adjective, and signifies a comparative when used non-restrictively and a superlative when used restrictively.
I think I'd personally say "declined", but I don't have any real basis for that other than what I "instinctively" think sounds better; I'm pretty sure you could use whichever word you like better.
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by loglorn »

shimobaatar wrote:
loglorn wrote:Pronouns work, for all ends, exactly like Nouns, taking those same prepositions, which i won't list again.
I assume you mean the ones outlined in this post?
Yep
shimobaatar wrote:
loglorn wrote:There are no Third Person Pronouns. The distal determiner ki (that) can be used, but only for humans within sight range. In all other cases, one must use the appropriate classifier to the word that's being referred back to. When referring back to multiple entities that'd use different classifiers, thṣu is used.
loglorn wrote:Adjectives have a Restrictiveness contrast, whereas the Restrictive form restricts the reference.

[…]

Such contrast interacts with the Specificity contrast: The Restrictive form demands the noun to be Specific., but the Non-Restrictive form does not demand the noun to be Non-Specific, and can be used with both Specific and Non-Specific nouns.
[+1] Very cool ideas!
loglorn wrote:Adjectives can also be conjugated/declined (which one do you use when adjective pattern neither with verbs nor with nouns?) to form degrees of comparison with -ktlaj. This 'Ktlaj form' can be though of as a new adjective, and signifies a comparative when used non-restrictively and a superlative when used restrictively.
I think I'd personally say "declined", but I don't have any real basis for that other than what I "instinctively" think sounds better; I'm pretty sure you could use whichever word you like better.
Thanks for following my thread. I forgot there was the part of speech neutral 'inflect'. I guess my adjectives will be inflecting from now on.

I'll convert my lexicon into conworkshop and then revise and gloss 'The North Wind and The Sun' translation before moving on to verbs.
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by shimobaatar »

loglorn wrote:Thanks for following my thread. I forgot there was the part of speech neutral 'inflect'. I guess my adjectives will be inflecting from now on.
Oh, it's my pleasure. [:D]

And I totally forgot about the word "inflect" too for a while there! [xD]
loglorn wrote:I'll convert my lexicon into conworkshop and then revise and gloss 'The North Wind and The Sun' translation before moving on to verbs.
Very much looking forward to all of this! If it's not too much trouble, could you post a link to the CWS lexicon page once it's been created?
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by Darvince »

I've been following this thread loosely, and when I read the post on pronouns and adjectives, I felt like I was reading something from a reference grammar for a real language, it's very nice and naturalistic! Good job!
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by loglorn »

Darvince wrote:I've been following this thread loosely, and when I read the post on pronouns and adjectives, I felt like I was reading something from a reference grammar for a real language, it's very nice and naturalistic! Good job!
And that's one awesome compliment [:D] [:D] [:D]. I hope you get the same cozy feeling of naturalness with the verbs too.
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by loglorn »

Verbs Part 1 (Mostly Aspect)

0. Introduction and Verb Classes (or Conjugations)

Verbs in Retla conjugate for Aspect (Perfective, Imperfect and Subjunctive), Polarity (Affirmative and Negative) and Voice (Active, Passive, Causative, Passive-Causative and Reflexive). I use the Affirmative Active Subjunctive as the dictionary form.

Verbs are divided in three Conjugation Classes. Class I (around 58% of the verbs as of now) merges the Perfective and the Subjunctive. Ends in -a and -i. Class II (~24%) has vowel changes in the Perfective and Imperfective. Ends in -e or -o. Class III (~17,5%) can be analyzed as marking the Subjunctive from the Perfective through a disfix. Subjunctive ends in -i -u -e or consonant.

There are some verbs that have their root initial plosives (unaspirated, never k) lenite (t -> s; p -> f, although there is at least one case of t -> ṣ) in the presence of prefixes. They may be of any class.

1.1 Aspect: Morphology

Class I

Class I is the simple one, both the Perfective and Subjunctive are unmarked, while the Imperfective receives -l.

PFV: -0 | mi
IPFV: -l | mil
SJV: -0 | mi

CSW chart (The first three in the Finite nr-1 Table)

Class II

In Class II the root vowel becomes higher (e -> i and o -> u) from the Subjunctive to the Perfective. The Imperfective displays the vowel change and the suffix -l.

PFV: vowel change | pi
IPFV: vowel change + -l | pil
SJV: -0 | pe

CWS chart

Class III

Class III verbs delete word final (C)i from the Perfective to the Subjunctive. Imperfective is formed by adding -l to the Perfective.

PFV: -0 | khuxti
IPFV: -l | khuxtil
SJV: (C)i disfix | khux

CWS chart

There are some curious cases in this class, like the verb tli (to cover), which has PFV: tlii /ˈtɾi.i/, IPFV tliir /ˈtɾi.iɾ/ and SJV tli /tɾi/. (The equivalent in Tlapthuv would be GNO: tlihiẕ, PROG: tlihilth, SJV: tlihi)

1.2 Aspect: Actual Meaning and Usage

Subjunctive

I'll start with the subjunctive because it does not require me to get into the Aktionsart stuff.

In finite clauses (it has uses in complement clauses, but i'll save that for a later post) it is an Imperative when there's no overt subject.

ko!
Run!

When there is a subject, it handles other Deontic moods, like Optative and Potential.

tle gu tiptija
return-SJV 2s REL-NEG-harm-PASS-PFV
May you return unharmed or You are probably returning unharmed (It doesn't matter in most cases, since you are wishing good stuff upon the hearer anyway)

Perfective

The Perfective is Perfective in most circumstances. It is restricted to the past when being Perfective.

xuguta khu le gu
fish-PFV CL.3s ACC fish
He caught a fish

If however, the intransitive subject or transitive object is using the Plural I (That, by the way, makes all verbs Atelic), the Perfective is interpreted as Gnomic

ili tgu tgu la ko pju tgu tgu gu
fly-PFV bird CL~ and swim-PFV Cl~ fish
bird fly and fish swim

Imperfective

The Imperfective is the most Aktionsart dependent of the three, it will be perceived differently depending on whether the verb is telic or atelic, has duration or not.

If the verb has duration, like walk, swim, etc., the Imperfective is definitely Progressive. Be the verb telic or not.

Telic:
nxul
drown-IPFV
I am drowning

Atelic:
ṣul
walk-IPFV
I am walking

If the verb is Instantaneous (i.e. no duration) and Telic (e.g. fall), the Imperfective takes on Prospective interpretations:
stolen straight from japanese

thil iŋpi iplu thle
fall-IPFV DEF.SPEC CL tree
The tree is about to fall (If, say, lightning just hit it and you're seeing it bend)

If the verb is Instaneous but Atelic (cough), it is Iterative.

xanpjal ki
cough-IPFV DIST
He coughed repeatedly or He is coughing (Arguably, it's like English, since when we use the progressive it hardly ever is a single cough, or knock, or sneeze)

Changing Aktionsart

Verbs do have a 'native' Telicity+Duration state (which i think i'll mark in my lexicon from now on), but it is very easy to change its properties through other elements of the clause. Having the object in Plural I renders anything atelic. Atelic verbs can be rendered Telic by specifying an endpoint through adverbials. Temporal adverbials can mess up with the Duration of verb at will, too.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by shimobaatar »

loglorn wrote:Verbs in Retla conjugate for Aspect (Perfective, Imperfect and Subjunctive), Polarity (Affirmative and Negative) and Voice (Active, Passive, Causative, Passive-Causative and Reflexive). I use the Affirmative Active Subjunctive as the dictionary form.
I'm curious… If you don't mind my asking, are there any particular reasons why the subjunctive is categorized as an aspect/why an aspect is called the subjunctive? No disrespect intended.
loglorn wrote:There are some verbs that have their root initial plosives (unaspirated, never k) lenite (t -> s; p -> f, although there is at least one case of t -> ṣ) in the presence of prefixes. They may be of any class.
[+1]

I'm not very confident in my knowledge of aspect, aktionsart, telicity, etc., so my apologies that I can't offer more specific feedback, but what you've described under the "meaning and usage" section seems interesting and very well thought out!
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by DesEsseintes »

Love the Aktionsart. [<3]
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by loglorn »

Because it patterns with aspect affixes, if you ignore semantics; it is not a prefix like relative forms, negative forms or converb forms and it cannot be used in conjunction with aspect like voice affixes can. There isn't really a mood slot in the verb morphology.

You'll see in sisterlangs that preserved the aspect system intact, that many aspects are highly linked with mood.
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by loglorn »

Revised, Corrected and Glossed: The North Wind and The Sun

Thal iŋpi ki wup ko iŋpi ith toxkh ŋujṣnu le thṣu tmi wi thṣu tektlaijṣnu
Argue-IPFV DEF.SPEC CL sun and DEF.SPEC CL wind cold-RES ACC 3 REL-COP-PFV DEF.NSPEC CL strong-COMP-RES
The Sun and the North Wind (lit. cold wind) were arguing over who was the strongest,

jurkhkxeki ṣoxa tzvul le toṣ ẕwiguj ja
SEQ-pass traveler REL-wear-IPFV ACC CL cloak warm
When a traveler wearing a warm cloak came by

Jiji thṣu le mi thṣu tmi tektlaijṣnu thṣu tniswi le kikuta le ṣoxa prju ẕwiguj
Agree-PFV 3p ACC COP-PFV 3 REL-COP-PFV strong-COMP-RES 3 REL-be.able.to-PFV ACC take.out-CAUS ACC traveler INS cloak
They agreed the strongest would be the one who made the traveler take out his cloak

Pi iŋpi ith toxkh ŋujṣnu jurkhfi wika
Go-PFV DEF.SPEC CL wind cold-RES SEQ-try first
The North Wind went to try first

Thakvu jurkhthakvu iŋpi ith toxkh ŋujṣnu
Blow-PF SEQ-blow DEF.SPEC CL wind cold-RES
The North Wind blew and blew

Twi ti iŋpi ith taf le iŋpi khu ṣoxa ktlaj le kita khu le ẕwiguj prju kha ji khu ktlaj
Do-PFV reach-PFV DEF.SPEC CL breath ACC DEF.SPEC CL traveler more ACC involve-CAUS 3s ACC cloak INS body GEN 3s more
The more the breath went at the traveler, the more the traveler drew the cloak around himself
(lit. The breath reaching the traveler more made he involve his body in the cloak more)

Gi iŋpi ith toxkh ŋujṣnu le pe
Stop-PFV DET.SPEC CL wind cold-RES ACC try-SJV
The North Wind stopped trying.

jurkhtna iŋpi ki wup le pe
SEQ-start DET.SPEC CL sun ACC try-SJV
The sun went to try

Phiŋtfi jurkhphiŋtfi iŋpi ki wup
Shine-PFV SEQ-shine DEF.SPEC CL sun
The sun shone and shone,

jurkhkiku ṣoxa le ẕwiguj ji khu
SEQ-take.out traveler ACC coat GEN 3s
and the traveler took out his cloak.

Jiji iŋpi ith toxkh ŋujṣnu le mi iŋpi ki wup iŋpi thṣu tektlaijṣnu
Agree-PFV DEF.SPEC CL wind cold-RES ACC COP-PFV DEF.SPEC CL sun strong-COMP-RES
The Wind agreed the Sun was the strongest.

My revision added a lot of 'iŋpi CL' in various places. That mostly took out conciseness, it seems.
Last edited by loglorn on 24 Jul 2015 15:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by loglorn »

Verbs Part 2 (Negation and Voice)

1. Negation

Negation is marked by k- (or i- along with the relative forms, but those won't be on this post). It triggers root plosive lenition, as it is a prefix.

In fact, some pairs of verbs that are homophonous in affirmative forms are distinguished in Negative forms as one displays lenition and the other does not:

pi (tried) and pi (went) vs. kfi (didn't try) and kpi (didn't go)

2. Voice

2.0 Transitivity and Alignment

Voices are changes in valence, so before actually talking about voice i'll introduce the natural state of verb's valence and morphosyntactic alignment.

Intransitive verbs take only nominative argument.

klul ki
breathe-IPFV 3
He is breathing

Transitive verbs have the Nominative Subject and an Accusative O. A pretty Nominative-Accusative language.

kta ki le er
find-PFV 3 ACC mushroom
He found a mushroom

Retla is Dechticaetiative, the Donor receives the Nominative, the Recipient receives the Accusative and the Theme the instrumental:

kfa ki le tra prju pil
give-PFV 3 ACC feather INS 1s
He gave a feather to me

Transitivity is mostly fix, very few verbs are can be both intransitive ad transitive.

2.1 Passive

Transitives and Ditransitives

Whatever is receiving le ( be it Object or Recipient) is promoted to nominative, if there was a Theme it is promoted to Object.
The former nominative is omitted, but can be added, if necessary by the preposition prju.

It is marked by adding -ja onto the verb's perfective form. The resulting verb can be normally conjugated as a Class I verb.

phija tra ta (prju tra)
use-PASS-PFV PROX axe (INS 1s)
This axe was used (by me)

kfaja tra le pil iplu (prju ki)
give-PASS-PFV 1s ACC feather CL (INS 3)
I was given feathers (by him)

Passive of Intransitives

Intransitive verbs can receive the passive morpheme, but the resulting operation is actually an Applicative. It is a general applicative that can be used for all sorts of relations, some examples:

Instrumental:

nuja khu le er
die-PASS-PFV 3 ACC mushroom
He died by mushroom (poisoning, presumably)

Comitative:

ṣuja pi khu le thim tul trijlu
walk-PASS-PFV child CL ACC 1p LAT shelter
We walked the children to safety

Locative:

kuja tra le titli
run-PASS-PFV 1s ACC plains
I ran in the plains

It is also used with the with the verb ruknu 'hurt' to promote possessors:

ruknuthijal tvo le tra
hurt-PASS-IPFV head ACC 1s
My head hurts

The Double Passive

After a Ditransitive has been passivized into a Transitive, it can be Passivized again into an Intransitive sentence:

kfaja tra le pil iplu (prju ki)
give-PASS-PFV 1s ACC feather CL (INS 3)
I was given feathers (by him)

->

kfajaja pil iplu (tul tra) (prju ki)
give-PASS-PASS-PFV feather CL (LAT 1s) (INS 3)
Feathers were given (to me) (by him)

The original donor can be made explicit in the Instrumental, while the original recipient may be shown using the lative preposition tul.

A most interesting phenomenon is the double passivization of transitives. After they have been detransitivized by the first passive, the second passive then acts as an applicative, as it normally does with intransitive verbs:

kijaja khu le ta
kill-PASS-PASS-PFV
He was killed with an axe

The original subject can still be reintroduced by the instrumental preposition:

pijajal phṣa le khu prju tra
dig-PASS-PASS-IPFV hole ACC 3 INS 1s
I'm digging a hole for him (a hole is being dug by me for him)

2.2 Causative

The Causative introduces a new participant, the Causer, while it demotes the original subject to the object slot and demotes the object (if there is one) the an instrumental slot. When used in transitives, the resulting verb is ditransitive and works exactly like a normal ditransitive, such as kfa (give).

It is marked by adding -ta to the Perfective form:

kuta le ji tra le mon ji tra
run-CAUS father GEN 1s ACC sister GEN 1s
My father made my sister run

psuta khu le tra prju ẕwiguj toṣ ji khu
wash-CAUS-PFV 3 ACC 1s INS clothe CL GEN 3
He made me wash his clothes

When Ditransitives are made causative, the Recipient ends up marked by tul:

kfata tel ji ki le ki prju tra tul pil
give-PFV mother GEN 3 ACC 3 INS feather LAT 1s
His mother made he give me a feather

Passive of the Causative

The Causative can be Passivized, normally in order to emphasize that the Causee was made to act against his will:

psutaja tra le ẕwiguj toṣ ji khu (prju khu)
wash-CAUS-PFV 1s ACC clothe CL GEN 3 (INS 3)
I was made to wash his clothes (by him)

2.3 Reflexive

The Reflexive is formed by adding -jata to the Perfective. It can be thought of as Passive + Causative. The sole argument is accusative:

psujata le tra
wash-REFL ACC 1s
I washed myself

There's no dedicated Reciprocal voice.

Voice is the area where there was the most innovation between PG and Retla. I like what came out.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by shimobaatar »

loglorn wrote:Negation is marked by k- (or i- along with the relative forms, but those won't be on this post). It triggers root plosive lenition, as it is a prefix.

In fact, some pairs of verbs that are homophonous in affirmative forms are distinguished in Negative forms as one displays lenition and the other does not:

pi (tried) and pi (went) vs. kfi (didn't try) and kpi (didn't go)
Awesome! This actually vaguely reminds me of something that can happen with nouns which have vowel-initial citation forms undergoing consonant mutation in Nias.

Are there any particular reasons, diachronic or otherwise, as to why "to try" undergoes lenition, but "to go" doesn't?
loglorn wrote:2. Voice
Wow! I wish I had more to say about this, but there's just so much here, and it all seems impressively detailed and well-thought out, so I don't feel like there's much for me to say other than that this looks outstanding. [:D]
loglorn wrote:Voice is the area where there was the most innovation between PG and Retla. I like what came out.
[+1]
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by loglorn »

shimobaatar wrote:
loglorn wrote:Negation is marked by k- (or i- along with the relative forms, but those won't be on this post). It triggers root plosive lenition, as it is a prefix.

In fact, some pairs of verbs that are homophonous in affirmative forms are distinguished in Negative forms as one displays lenition and the other does not:

pi (tried) and pi (went) vs. kfi (didn't try) and kpi (didn't go)
Awesome! This actually vaguely reminds me of something that can happen with nouns which have vowel-initial citation forms undergoing consonant mutation in Nias.

Are there any particular reasons, diachronic or otherwise, as to why "to try" undergoes lenition, but "to go" doesn't?
There's a diachronic reason for that.

Quite early in Retla's phonetic history, word initial fricatives (except for *x which became h before that) underwent fortition. In the presence of prefixes, such fricatives were no longer word initial, and thus did not fortite. Syncronically at Retla, it is easier to perceive the phenomenon as lenition, but from at diachronic point of view it was fortition that happened.

pe, to try, comes from *fqej, and fortited, unless there was a prefix. pe, to go, comes from *pxéj, and had a plosive all the way, even when there are prefixes.

For comparison late PG's tried, didn't try, went, didn't go; before and after the forition

fqep' - k'fqep' (try - didn't try) -> pqep' - k'fqep'

pxéj - k'pxéj (went - didn't go) -> phep' -> k'phep'
shimobaatar wrote:
loglorn wrote:2. Voice
Wow! I wish I had more to say about this, but there's just so much here, and it all seems impressively detailed and well-thought out, so I don't feel like there's much for me to say other than that this looks outstanding. [:D]
And here goes a very big thank you.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by shimobaatar »

loglorn wrote:There's a diachronic reason for that.

Quite early in Retla's phonetic history, word initial fricatives (except for *x which became h before that) underwent fortition. In the presence of prefixes, such fricatives were no longer word initial, and thus did not fortite. Syncronically at Retla, it is easier to perceive the phenomenon as lenition, but from at diachronic point of view it was fortition that happened.

pe, to try, comes from *fqej, and fortited, unless there was a prefix. pe, to go, comes from *pxéj, and had a plosive all the way, even when there are prefixes.

For comparison late PG's tried, didn't try, went, didn't go; before and after the forition

fqep' - k'fqep' (try - didn't try) -> pqep' - k'fqep'

pxéj - k'pxéj (went - didn't go) -> phep' -> k'phep'
[+1] Oh, that's really interesting! I especially love how the actual diachronic process ends up looking like pretty much the opposite process synchronically.
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by loglorn »

It also explains why k initial roots never lenite (because *x went h and never fortited), and why aspirates don't either, they seem to have been skipped when the fricatives fortited.
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by smappy »

First off, this is amazing! Retla is obviously very well-thought-out and I love that you're creating such a detailed language even in a diachronic collabworld context. I especially like your ideas on specificity/definiteness and also the use of restrictive adjectives. These are so creatively done!

I have a couple of questions about verbs.
loglorn wrote:Negation is marked by k- (or i- along with the relative forms, but those won't be on this post). It triggers root plosive lenition, as it is a prefix.
What happens if a verb root starts with k as in kta 'find'?

And more generally, what difference does using the passive voice make? Under what circumstances are speakers more likely to use sentences in the passive voice? Does it have to do with formality, or discourse structure where topics are fronted, or something else entirely?

Finally, could you describe how you got the voice system out of PG and how it might change in the 'future' after Retla?

Thanks and kudos for creating such an amazing language! [<3]
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loglorn
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by loglorn »

smappy wrote:I have a couple of questions about verbs.
loglorn wrote:Negation is marked by k- (or i- along with the relative forms, but those won't be on this post). It triggers root plosive lenition, as it is a prefix.
What happens if a verb root starts with k as in kta 'find'?
The negative form is kkta, but there probably is a schwa between those two k's. Playing with schwa epenthesis in clusters in one of the few definite ideas i have about Retla's descendants right now.
smappy wrote:And more generally, what difference does using the passive voice make? Under what circumstances are speakers more likely to use sentences in the passive voice? Does it have to do with formality, or discourse structure where topics are fronted, or something else entirely?
Now you got me. I spend yesterday thinking about that and didn't reach many conclusions. I don't see it correlating with formality, it is probably more related with discourse structure, in order to keep the topic the subject through the discourse.

In speech though, i think most instances of passive voice would be applicatives (either passives of intransitives or double passives).
smappy wrote:Finally, could you describe how you got the voice system out of PG and how it might change in the 'future' after Retla?
PG had the passive in -jó and the causative in -t'a already, the plain passives and causatives here are direct reflexes of that. The forms generated by -jó and -t'a were much like full, new, verbs (they could be conjugated in any form a normal verb could), the voice processes were in that misty border between derivational and inflectional processes. The Southern Branch (Retla and Tlapthuv) was the branch were they kept being the most derivational, which led to that bonanza of applying passives over causatives, causatives over passives and doing double passives.

As of now, my ideas on the descendants of any of the current gigxkpoyan languages are very scarce, i don't know what's gonna happen to that voice system yet.
smappy wrote:First off, this is amazing! Retla is obviously very well-thought-out and I love that you're creating such a detailed language even in a diachronic collabworld context. I especially like your ideas on specificity/definiteness and also the use of restrictive adjectives. These are so creatively done!
smappy wrote:Thanks and kudos for creating such an amazing language! [<3]
Thank you, really. I should've started doing threads about my languages long ago, the joy of conlanging, at least for me, comes from the process, but all you guys saying cool stuff about my langs gives such a feeling of accomplishment. This forum is such an awesome place.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
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loglorn
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by loglorn »

Non-Finite Clauses

This Post probably falls further down in the realm of Syntax than it does in the realm of Morphology. I considered calling it Verbs Part 3, since there are still lots of verbal morphology here, but Non-Finite clauses seemed to aggregate everything better.

1. Complement Clauses

Complement clauses are clauses that act either as subjects or as objects of other clauses. I'm sure you're all familiar with that.

1.1 Formation

Retla treats Complements Clauses much like it treats nouns, in the sense that they can be used as subjects or objects jut by applying the rules one would apply to nouns:

Jiji iŋpi ith toxkh ŋujṣnu le mi iŋpi ki wup iŋpi thṣu tektraijṣnu
Agree-PFV DEF.SPEC CL wind cold-RES ACC COP-PFV DEF.SPEC CL sun strong-COMP-RES
The North Wind agreed the Sun was the strongest.

One can see in the above example that the complement clause, here an object, is being marked by le, just like normal nominal objects are. I'm unsure as whether to analyze this as a conjunction le that happens to be just like a preposition le, as a preposition that may take verb phrases or what.

Complement clauses filling subject role are unmarked, but are easily distinguishable because there's a verb that's not the first thing in the sentence.

1.2 Subjunctive

The Subjunctive is used in complement clauses if the verb is the only word in the complement clause:

ktu le ṣo
like-PFV ACC walk-PFV
I like to walk/walking

Retla normally only allows for two levels of recursion, a complement clause inside a complement clause, but, if the last one has only a Subjunctive, it may allow for a third level of recursion.

1.3 Interesting Usage

Constructions in which the complement clause functions as a subjects have some interesting uses with some verbs, such constructions being used to convey things normally conveyed by conjunctions such as 'because', 'before' and 'after'. An example can be seen in an excerpt from The North Wind and the Sun.

twi ti iŋpi ith taf le iŋpi khu ṣoxa ktlaj le kita khu le ẕwiguj prju kha ji khu ktlaj
Do-PFV reach-PFV DEF.SPEC CL breath ACC DEF.SPEC CL traveler more ACC involve-CAUS 3s ACC cloak INS body GEN 3s more
The more the breath went at the traveler, the more the traveler drew the cloak around himself

Using a clause as subject and one as object of the verb twi (do, make) implies a Causality relation between the two clauses, that the object clauses happened because the subject clause did.

The example sentence above can be translated more literally as "The traveler drew the cloak around himself more because the breath reached him more"

Similar constructions with the verbs pe(ki) (precede) and ptu(ji) (succeed) mean, respectively, before and after:

peji tu le psujata le khu
precede-PFV eat-PFV ACC wash-REFL ACC 3
He ate before washing himself

ptuji tu le psujata le khu
succeed-PFV eat-PFV ACC wash-REFL ACC 3
He ate after washing himself

2. Relative Clauses

Verbs receive special morphology when on Relative Clauses, the Relative prefix t- can be prefixes to any Perfective or Imperfective form of a verb (i guess this is an instance of the Subjunctive not patterning with the other aspects).

The negative prefix k- has an allomorph i- for when the relative t- is present.

ru le lor
break-PFV ACC bone
I broke a bone

kru le lor
NEG-break-PFV ACC bone
I didn't break a bone

lor tru
bone REL-break-PFV
A bone a broke

lor tiru
bone REL-NEG-break-PFV
A bone i didn't break

3. Converbs

The Converb Forms are all marked by prefixes, thus triggering lenition in the roots that display it. Converb Forms can be marked for voice but don't distinguish neither aspect nor polarity.

3.1 Simultaneous

Form

The Simultaneous is marked by adding the prefix te-, into the Imperfective. the copula, mi, is irregular, and displays a simultaneous form te, as opposed to the expected temil.

Use

It denotes that the two clauses occur simultaneously:

teŋil kul ki
SIM-sit run-IPFV 3
I sit while he runs

3.2 Sequential

Form

It is formed by adding jurkh- into the Perfective. tli (return.PFV) -> jurkhsli. The copula is irregular, having jurkh instead of the regular jurkhmi.

Use

Here the action in the main clause starts as the action in the subordinate one ends, without implying any causality between the actions:

tu jurkhfsujata le khu
SEQ-wash-REFL ACC 3 eat-PFV
He washed himself and then ate

The difference between tu jurkhfsujata le khu and ptuji tu le psujata le khu, is that the latter does not imply one action started just as the other ended, allowing for some space between the actions. The former is much stricter in the space between one action and the other.

3.3 Consequential

Form

The consequential is marked by prefixing kaẕ- into the Subjunctive (of Class II) or Perfective (Class III). The copula is again irregular, displaying keẕ instead of kaẕmi.

Use

The Consequential is a conditional in its most Realis incarnations; it implies that once the action in the subordinate clause happens, the action in the main clause is bound to happen, the first action causing the second:

u gu phiŋtktlaj kaẕfsujata
feel-PFV 2s light-COMP CNSQ-wash-REFL
When you wash yourself you feel lighter

This implies that you'll feel lighter every time you wash yourself.

3.4 Conditional

Form

The Conditional is made by adding ta- into the Perfective. Once more, the copula is irregular (the copula's irregular converb forms are the only irregular paradigm found throughout Retla), showing pete, not tami.

Use

The Conditional is, well, conditional, an if clause. If {sub clause} then {main clause}, mostly.

thipji tathipjiri gu
cry-SJV COND-cry 2s
I'll cry if you cry
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by shimobaatar »

Once again, I just can't even express how impressed I am! You work quickly, but everything is still so well thought-out.
loglorn wrote:One can see in the above example that the complement clause, here an object, is being marked by le, just like normal nominal objects are. I'm unsure as whether to analyze this as a conjunction le that happens to be just like a preposition le, as a preposition that may take verb phrases or what.
On my own, I'd probably be inclined to describe it as a preposition that can take clauses/verb phrases as objects, but I also find the idea of analyzing it as a conjunction identical to the preposition very interesting. I can't think of any reasons to choose one option over the other, unfortunately.
loglorn wrote:Retla normally only allows for two levels of recursion, a complement clause inside a complement clause, but, if the last one has only a Subjunctive, it may allow for a third level of recursion.
If you don't mind, would it be possible for you to show an example or two demonstrating these "limits" on recursion, so to speak?
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loglorn
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Re: The First of Many: The Retla Thread

Post by loglorn »

That recursion thing is a tricky one, not sure if'll keep it. Thinking about it now, English allows for some obnoxiously long recursion chains, such as I think [George said [i want [to tell Phil [i like [to swim]]]]]. But languages can have different recursion limits, it seems, even in the most generous analyses, Pirahã only allows one level of recursion.

The 'limit' works like this:

A sentence such as:

kpa George [le kpa tra tul khu [le pjo]]
George said i told him i swim

Has 2 levels of recursion, if i'm not terribly mistaken.

*kpa George [le kpa tra tul khu [le ktu [le tha le mi]]]
George said i told him i like to see the sea

That'd be ungrammatical because it has 3 layers of recursion. The third level is only allowed if it is only a verb in the subjunctive, therefore;

kpa George [le kpa tra tul khu [le ktu [le pjo]]]
George said i told him i like to swim

would be a grammatical sentence.

If i keep that, which i think i will, in order to translate that huge chain of recursion in that sentence up there, i'd have to split it in two and use parataxis of some sort:

pi [le kpa George [le ṣi khṣu]] ṣe [kpa tul Phil [le ktu [le pjo]]]
think-PFV ACC say-PFV George ACC want-PFV 3 want-SJV say-PFV LAT Phil ACC like-PFV ACC swim-SJV
I think George said i want something. I want to tell Phil i like to swim
I think George said i want to tell Phil i like to swim

I think i'll keep that mostly because one hardly ever finds context to utter such monstrosities as this example.

Right now i don't really know what to talk about. I don't want to put the diachronical developments for each language in its thread because i'll end up repeating things a lot. Retla and Tlapthuv have around 2/3 of the diachrony in common, for example. Think i'm gonna make a big master thread with all the diachrony for all branches later.

If i don't get any suggestions of what to write about, this thread will become an AMA of sorts.

The Holidays have finally come, i'll dedicate tomorrow into Tlapthuv's Semantic drift and i may have a Tlapthuv thread running by the weekend.

Really shimo, you should stop being so nice, i'm getting tired of thanking you [;)]
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
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