Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

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Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn » Sat 25 Jul 2015, 20:44

Tlapthuv

Image

[4] on this map, Tlapthuv is Retla's closest sisterlang, them having diverged only 5 or 6 hundred years. I ran some calculations about my lexicons, and about 83% of the words i have are cognates between Tlapthuv and Retla. Tlapthuv is, as far as i can tell, the most conservative Gigxkpoyan language.

I'll keep this first post to put table of contents. But you can have a teaser; a very preliminary translation of "The North Wind and the Sun" (which is very likely to get revised and changed to some extent).
Spoiler:
Iŋpij ithli toxp ŋujt koh iŋpij kikh wups

Thalt iŋpij ithli toxp ŋujt koh iŋpij kikh wups le mij thju iŋpij ithli ivhklètinu, jukhxekip joax tzvult ẕwem jainu. Tetvuŋip thju le mij iŋpij ithli ivhklètinu thju tniswi le tikhṣutè le iŋpij khu joax prjuth ẕwem jainu.

Pip iŋpij ithli toxp ŋujt jukhhip wikaẕ. Thakvup jukhthakvup iŋpij ithli toxp ŋujt. Itrap htej htafi tulth iŋpij khu joax ktlèt le xusitè iŋpij khu joax le iŋpij toṣi ẕwem prjuth naf jit khu. Jip iŋpij ithli toxp ŋujt le phej. Tnap iŋpij kikh wups le phej. Phiŋtfip jukhphiŋtfip iŋpij kikh wups, jukhṣikhṣup iŋpij khu joax le iŋpij toṣi ẕwem. Tetvuŋip iŋpij ithli toxp ŋujt le mij iŋpij kikh wups iŋpij ithli ivhklètinu.

Kudos to whoever spots all cognates (or all words that aren't cognates. It's probably easier)
Last edited by loglorn on Sat 25 Jul 2015, 22:21, edited 1 time in total.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn » Sat 25 Jul 2015, 22:17

Phonology

Tlapthuv has 21 consonants and 6 vowels:

Consonants

/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ>
/p pʰ t tʰ k kʰ/ <p ph t th k kh>
/f v s z ʂ ʐ h ɦ*/ <f v s z ṣ ẕ h x>
/w ɹ ɾ j/ <w r l j>

The most common consonants being t j p k h/l (I found exactly the same number of instances of h and l in my lexicon). It is quite similar to Retla's.

*Although i'm putting ɦ among the fricatives, there are some processes (which probably qualifie as morphopho) where ɦ is treated as an approximant.

Vowels

/i e ɛ a o u/ <i e è a o u>

The most common vowel is still /i/ (Tlapthuv and Retla share many of the sound changes that led to a very high frequency of /i/), while /o/ is the least common.

Phonotactics

Tlapthuv allows for three consonants each side of the nucleus (which is always a vowel). It mostly follows sonority hierarchy, in that more sonorous consonants come closer to the nucleus in clusters. The exception to that is that fricatives may come after plosives in codas.

There doesn't seem to be any words with the maximal CCCVCCC syllable.

Morphology on its way. There will be a strong sense of dejà-vu and some sections may come out as boring due to being too similar to Retla.
Last edited by loglorn on Sun 26 Jul 2015, 19:34, edited 1 time in total.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by Darvince » Sun 26 Jul 2015, 03:36

Do you know if they're mutually intelligible? And if so, how mutually intelligible they are?
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by shimobaatar » Sun 26 Jul 2015, 04:15

I like the phonology, especially the things differentiating it from Retla's, like /h ɦ/ "replacing" /ɣ ʁ/ (that is to say, the two languages have the same number of consonants, but each has two the other lacks), the addition of /ɛ/, and the differences in phonotactics. [:D]

[+1] I'm looking forward to hearing more about morphosyntax and the language in general, no matter how similar it may be to Retla! Knowing more about those things will also make it easier to try spotting non-cognates in the example texts.
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn » Sun 26 Jul 2015, 19:31

shimobaatar wrote:I like the phonology, especially the things differentiating it from Retla's, like /h ɦ/ "replacing" /ɣ ʁ/ (that is to say, the two languages have the same number of consonants, but each has two the other lacks), the addition of /ɛ/, and the differences in phonotactics. [:D]

[+1] I'm looking forward to hearing more about morphosyntax and the language in general, no matter how similar it may be to Retla! Knowing more about those things will also make it easier to try spotting non-cognates in the example texts.
There actually is a fairly regular correspondence between Retla's ʁ and Tlapthuv's ɦ. They are both romanized <x>, too.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn » Sun 26 Jul 2015, 20:17

Nouns

Tlapthuv also displays the basic Gigxkpoyan Preposition pack:

Accusative: le
Instrumental: prjuth
Genitive: jit
Locative: tat
Lative: tulth

And the additional locative/lative prepositions.

kik 'beyond/across'
ju 'on top'
ptujh 'behind/after'
phah 'inside'
pjot 'outside'
khpil 'below'
pnuf 'from'
pipi 'to'

A peculiarity of Tlapthuv's prepositional system is that only the main prepositions can go by themselves, the additional locative/lative ones must always be accompanied by either the Locative or the Lative prepositions, compare:

pip tulth revtlap
go-PFV LAT ~
I went to the Revtlap*

jukhfjup thju tulth kik hmis
SEQ-swim-CIRC 3 LAT across sea
And they swam across the sea

*Revtlap is the name of a river. Not that big one there is on the map in the first post, but a smaller one further south. The Retla cognate of that is, well, Retla.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by Prinsessa » Sun 26 Jul 2015, 20:22

Looks nice! But WHY do retroflex s and z not have the same diacritic? ;___;
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn » Sun 26 Jul 2015, 20:29

Prinsessa wrote:Looks nice! But WHY do retroflex s and z not have the same diacritic? ;___;
Because the diacritic i have in the z had to be a combining diacritic in the s. That underbar is there in one character at least for z, t, d, n; but no s. I find the underbar more appealing than the underdot and the decision of keeping the underbar series comes from PG, when the language actually had the full retroflex series. I have the bad habit of only minimally changing orthography between the protolang and it's descendants, even when i could do things an easier way. Anyways, ʂ is the least common phoneme, i bet you won't even see one through the whole of this thread.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 27 Jul 2015, 00:07

loglorn wrote: A peculiarity of Tlapthuv's prepositional system is that only the main prepositions can go by themselves, the additional locative/lative ones must always be accompanied by either the Locative or the Lative prepositions, compare:
Oh, that's interesting!
loglorn wrote:*Revtlap is the name of a river. Not that big one there is on the map in the first post, but a smaller one further south. The Retla cognate of that is, well, Retla.
What does the name mean, if you don't mind my asking?
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn » Mon 27 Jul 2015, 13:21

shimobaatar wrote:
loglorn wrote:*Revtlap is the name of a river. Not that big one there is on the map in the first post, but a smaller one further south. The Retla cognate of that is, well, Retla.
What does the name mean, if you don't mind my asking?
I was not that creative, Revtlap/Retla means 'small water', as opposed to the big river called Kmoltlap/Kmotla 'big water'.

As i'm already at it, Tlapthuv is the Tlapthuv word for 'swamp'.

All my previous languages have been named after their word for language. I realized that wouldn't work really well here because i'd have a few clusters of two or three languages with the same word for language, and often they'd be too similar.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 27 Jul 2015, 17:28

loglorn wrote:All my previous languages have been named after their word for language. I realized that wouldn't work really well here because i'd have a few clusters of two or three languages with the same word for language, and often they'd be too similar.
That's quite a good point; I wouldn't personally call your solution to this "not that creative", by the way.
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn » Tue 28 Jul 2015, 22:38

Classifiers

Which classifier accompanies which noun is a highly lexical, word specific thing. While details may vary (specific words having different classifiers), the broad strokes of such pairings will be the same as Retla, so i'll be briefer.

khu - Adult humans. Females may be referred to by pi, even as adults.

pi - Children, sometimes used for animals (akin to calling your pet 'he' or 'she' instead of just 'it')

tju - Animals. Natural phenomena (lightning, fire, etc.) are sometimes put here.

plo - long, thin stuff. Like sticks, trees and maybe snakes (snakes not being so rigid is something of a point against being placed here).

kikh - For round, or roughly round stuff; eggs, the sun maybe coconuts, although i don't believe there were coconuts where Tlapthuv was spoken.

toṣi - thin, broad things, like leaves and clothe.

thju - general classifier that encompasses everything that failed is not paired with other classifiers, including stuff that is too formless to fit into the form-oriented classifiers (like wind, sand), abstract concepts and everything else that's smaller than a man.

eshwi - classifier for stuff that don't fall into the other classifiers but are bigger than a man. Like mountains.
Spoiler:
Someone might notice that Retla's ith doesn't have a cognate here. First thing i'll have to change in the sample text here.
Usage

Obligatoriness

Classifiers are only obligatory in the presence of numerals or of the DEF.SPEC thing (iŋpij)

mil eshwi hthuŋp
3 CL mountain
three mountains

Nouns are accompanied by adjectives or other modifiers without classifiers:

toxp ŋujt
wind cold
cold wind

not *thju toxp ŋujt (Which has a classifier)

Number

The plural is marked by placing the classifier after the noun. As previous examples have shown, this is not necessary in the presence of numerals.

khap khu
person CL
People

*jen khap khu
five person CL

The number situation is quite simple in Tlapthuv.

Specificity

Nouns are marked for Specificity, with the Specific nouns being marked for definiteness. An example of each of those situations:

Nonspecific Indefinite

kpap phfirṣ khu le kvali
talk-PFV woman CL ACC child
The women talked to a child

Each woman might have talked to a different children, we don't know.

Nonspecific Definite

Pihalth kpè le khapteh
want-IPFV talk-SJV ACC chief
I want to talk to the chief

It shows i don't know who the chief is or don't have a specific chief in mind (if there's more than one)

Specific Indefinite

kpap phfirṣ khu le wi pi kvali
talk-PFV woman CL ACC SPEC.INDEF CL child
Women talked to a child

Every women involved talked to the same specific child.

Specific Definite

Pihalth kpè le iŋpij khu khapteh
want-IPFV talk-SJV ACC SPEC.DEF CL chief
I want to talk to the chief

I know the chief and have a certain chief in mind.

It seems i lied to Prinsessa. You were going to see <ṣ> it seems.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by qwed117 » Tue 28 Jul 2015, 23:22

loglorn wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:
loglorn wrote:*Revtlap is the name of a river. Not that big one there is on the map in the first post, but a smaller one further south. The Retla cognate of that is, well, Retla.
What does the name mean, if you don't mind my asking?
I was not that creative, Revtlap/Retla means 'small water', as opposed to the big river called Kmoltlap/Kmotla 'big water'.

As i'm already at it, Tlapthuv is the Tlapthuv word for 'swamp'.

All my previous languages have been named after their word for language. I realized that wouldn't work really well here because i'd have a few clusters of two or three languages with the same word for language, and often they'd be too similar.
Why does Tlapthuv have "tlap-" come first, but Revtlap has "-tlap" come last?
[:$] I feel stupid asking this [:$]
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by shimobaatar » Tue 28 Jul 2015, 23:38

loglorn wrote:<ṣ>
Regarding this grapheme in particular, I like the way it looks, but that's just me, I guess. I quite like the aesthetic of the language as a whole, as well, actually.

I found the classifier post interesting, as usual, especially because of the subtle differences from Retla (number marking, places where the classifiers are obligatory, etc.).
qwed117 wrote: Why does Tlapthuv have "tlap-" come first, but Revtlap has "-tlap" come last?
[:$] I feel stupid asking this [:$]
No need to feel stupid; the answer doesn't seem obvious to me, either, and my guess could be very wrong. [:)] Nevertheless, I'd assume it's because "Revtlap" means "small water", but Tlapthuv means "swamp" (which might be able to be "broken down", at least somewhat, into "water X", with X representing a second morpheme I don't know at the moment). That is to say, I assume it's because they're both compound words including the word for "water", but one word has "water" as the first morpheme, while the other has "water" as the last morpheme.
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 00:43

shimobaatar wrote:
loglorn wrote:<ṣ>
Regarding this grapheme in particular, I like the way it looks, but that's just me, I guess. I quite like the aesthetic of the language as a whole, as well, actually.

I found the classifier post interesting, as usual, especially because of the subtle differences from Retla (number marking, places where the classifiers are obligatory, etc.).
Glad someone likes it. That warm, fuzzy feeling of positive feedback.
shimobaatar wrote:
qwed117 wrote: Why does Tlapthuv have "tlap-" come first, but Revtlap has "-tlap" come last?
[:$] I feel stupid asking this [:$]
No need to feel stupid; the answer doesn't seem obvious to me, either, and my guess could be very wrong. [:)] Nevertheless, I'd assume it's because "Revtlap" means "small water", but Tlapthuv means "swamp" (which might be able to be "broken down", at least somewhat, into "water X", with X representing a second morpheme I don't know at the moment). That is to say, I assume it's because they're both compound words including the word for "water", but one word has "water" as the first morpheme, while the other has "water" as the last morpheme.
One is a noun-noun compound, ad the other is a adj-noun compound. That has to do with it. As far as i can tell, if you can identify a modifier in noun resulting compounds, it usually comes first.

Honestly, i haven't thought about compounding one fourth of what i'd like, so things may be a little inconsistent.

The next language i describe, regardless of which it is, is probably going to be far less subtle in the differences. None of them is as close to either Retla or Tlapthuv as they are themselves.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by Darvince » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 03:14

Let's play the I-spy-a-cognate game!

Retla -> Tlapthuv
khu -> khu
pi -> pi
tgu -> tju
iplu -> plo
ki -> kikh
toṣ -> toṣi
ith -> thju
thṣu -> thju
ins -> eshwi
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 13:28

Darvince wrote:Let's play the I-spy-a-cognate game!

Retla -> Tlapthuv
khu -> khu
pi -> pi
tgu -> tju
iplu -> plo
ki -> kikh
toṣ -> toṣi
ith -> thju
thṣu -> thju
ins -> eshwi
Ith and thju are not cognates, i kinda said ith didn't have a cognate here already, i think. If it had, it would be something of the form thle or ethli.

Level 2 now is doing that with the texts [;)]
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 19:22

Numerals

Someone missed the numbers in Retla, and as this is already going to be a catch-all post, i'll just put them here

1 - wi
2 - xuŋ
3 - mil
4 - pum
5 - jen
6 - teph
7 - ani
8 - jast
9 - aẕp
10 - ipti

I doubt at this point there'd be any consistent system of formation of higher numbers. If there's one at all.

Pronouns

Gigxkpoyan languages are characterized by small pronoun inventories. Tlapthuv only has 3 proper pronouns:

First person singular - kik
First person plural - thimi
Second person (unspecified) - juṣ

Various things can fill in the role of third person pronouns. The distal deictic kit can be used to refer back to things within sight, while other thins are referred to by the classifiers they employ.

When referring back to more than one entity when said entities would take different classifiers, thju is used.

Tetvuŋip thju le mij iŋpij thju ivhktlètinu thju tniswi le tikhṣutè le iŋpij khu joax prjuth ẕwem jajnu
agree-PFV 3 ACC COP-SJV SPEC.DEF CL strong-SUPL 3 REL-be.able.to-SJV ACC take-out-CAUS-SJV ACC SPEC.DEF CL traveler INS coat warm-NRES
They agreed that the strongest would be the one who could make the traveler take off his warm coat

In this phrase we have thju being used as a classifier, being used to refer back to entities with different classifiers (wind and sun) and as the indeterminate pronoun 'one'.

Adjectives

Adjectives have Comparative and Superlative forms and make a Restrictiveness distinction:

1. Comparatives

Comparative

The comparative is formed by adding -ktlèt to the adjective.

miẕ kit tehktlèt kik
COP-GNO DIST tall-COMP 1s
He is taller than you

Superlative

The Superlative is formed by adding -ktlètinu to the adjective:

miẕ kit khap tehktlètinu tphfep ters
COP-GNO DIST man tall-SUPL REL-encounter-PFV already
He's the tallest man i've ever met

The superlative form can also behave as a Noun:

miẕ iŋpij kikh wups iŋpij thju ivhktlètinu
COP-GNO SPEC.DEF CL sun SPEC.DEF CL strong-SUPL
The sun is the strongest

2. Restrictiveness

The restrictive form of the Adjective restricts the modified noun into a specific instance that has the characteristic, while the non-restrictive does not.

ktuẕ le pat tju tirikh
like-GNO ACC cat CL black-RES
I like black cats

With a restrictive adjective, this phrase implies that i like black cats only, disliking, for example, white ones.

ktuẕ le pat tju tirikhinu
like-GNO ACC cat CL black-NRES
I like black cats

Now it doesn't have said implications anymore, i might like white cats too.

The Restrictive is unmarked, while the Non-Restrictive is marked by -inu (-jnu after vowels).

Adverbs

Adjectives are adverbialized by -inu (The adverbial and non-restrictive forms are the same)
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by shimobaatar » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 21:26

loglorn wrote:1 - wi
2 - xuŋ
3 - mil
4 - pum
5 - jen
6 - teph
7 - ani
8 - jast
9 - aẕp
10 - ipti
Love comparing these to the Retla list; would it be correct to assume that Tlapthuv is the more conservative of the two, at least in terms of retaining coda consonants (and some word-final vowels)?
loglorn wrote:Gigxkpoyan languages are characterized by small pronoun inventories. Tlapthuv only has 3 proper pronouns:
loglorn wrote:The restrictive form of the Adjective restricts the modified noun into a specific instance that has the characteristic, while the non-restrictive does not.
As I probably said in the Retla thread, I think this restrictiveness idea is very creative! Regarding the pronouns, it's interesting that Tlapthuv has one less "proper" pronoun than Retla (with Retla having separate second person singular and plural pronouns). Also, I assume the first person singular pronouns (Tlapthuv kik and Retla tra) aren't cognates?
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Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 21:43

Tlapthuv is the single most conservative Gigxkpoyan languages, i guess it's safe to say it's more conservative than Retla in every respect. Retla at one point eliminated whole bunches of word final consonants (which is what killed the verbal aspect system btw).

The additional pronoun Retla has is an innovation. And yea, the first person pronouns are not cognates. Retla's cognate of kik merged with Retla's cognate of kit (the distal deictic that's used for anaphora sometimes), which could potentially bring lots of ambiguity, so Retla innovated a new first person singular (out of the proximal deictic).

It seems you didn't notice that the Restrictive and Non-restrictive markers are inverted [:P]
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
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