Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10372
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by shimobaatar »

loglorn wrote: It seems you didn't notice that the Restrictive and Non-restrictive markers are inverted [:P]
[xD] You're right, I didn't (and I forgot to mention Tlapthuv's separate superlative suffix)! How did that switch happen? I assume the suffixes are at least partial cognates, but I get the feeling I may be wrong?
User avatar
loglorn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1728
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 03:22

Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn »

They're 100% cognate. PG was not very consistent read: i wasn't very consistent when translating stuff on which form marked what, so the individual languages made different decisions on how it would work. But that suffix exists in some form in every Gigxkpoyan language up to this stage. Mostly, that's another instance of Retla being weird.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
User avatar
Sḿtuval
greek
greek
Posts: 715
Joined: 10 Oct 2013 00:56
Location: California

Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by Sḿtuval »

I feel like my lang family's boring after reading both gigxkpoyan threads. [xD]

Lots of cool stuff here. [tick]
I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing.
User avatar
loglorn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1728
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 03:22

Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn »

Sḿtuval wrote:I feel like my lang family's boring after reading both gigxkpoyan threads. [xD]

Lots of cool stuff here. [tick]
I felt like my languages were boring when I read your thread so I guess we're even [;)]
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
User avatar
loglorn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1728
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 03:22

Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn »

Verbs Part 1: Aspect

0. Introduction

Verbs in Tlapthuv, as in Retla, conjugate for Aspect, Polarity, Voice an the Converb Forms. I'm not sure if those truly characterize as proper 'conjugations', but verbs ending in e or o have said vowels reduced to i u, in all cases except before the Subjunctive and the Gnomic. There are no truly irregular verbs (like Retla's copula).

There are, though, those verbs who lenite in the presence of prefixes. The can only happen with verbs starting in p, ph, t or th. Plain plosives always lenite to their fricative counterparts. Aspirated plosives who lenite are somewhat weird; they lenite to their fricatives after k-, th- and jukh- (prefixes ending in plosives) and to /h/ elsewhere:

phip
Tried

kfip
didn't try

tahip
if i try

Aspirated initial verbs who lenite are somewhat rare. There are some verbs starting in t who lenite into instead of s: tikhṣuj -> kṣikhṣuj (take out, undress).

1. Aspect

The Aspectual system in Tlapthuv is the most representative of PG's system, displaying five aspects and the Subjunctive:

Perfective

Marked by -p; the perfective means that the action is viewed as a single indivisible thing. It is normally past, but adverbs can make it future. When used as future, it marks that the speaker's compromise with the certainty that it will happen, as opposed to the Future/Irrealis, that expresses a much more dubious assertion.

xanpjap khu ktlatinu
cough-PFV 3 loud-ADVZ
He coughed loudly

tlep khu xẕiph
return-PFV 3 tomorrow
He will come back tomorrow (i'm sure of it)

With adverbs that normally force tense into the present, it acquires a meaning of 'about to':

thip traphku
fall-PFV now
I'm about to fall

Gnomic

The Gnomic, marked by -ẕ, marks that the action is realized in some way throughout the whole of the timeline (what exactly comprises the timeline may vary), it is commonly used with the copula for intrinsic qualities.

iliẕ la tju
fly-GNO bird PL
birds fly

miẕ jèh hjusi
COP-GNO sky blue
The sky is blue

Habitual

The Habitual, marked by -lth, is somewhat like the gnomic, except that it does not comprise all of the timeline, but a large chunk of it (that never crosses the present). It may be in either the past or the future (although it is not easy to find context that puts it in the future):

milth pik
COP-GNO young
I used to be young

milth juṣ ptèt koh
COP-HAB 2s old too
You will be old too

The example with 'old' throws the tense into the future, because one cannot have been old and subsequently have stopped being old, so the natural assumption is that you are not old now, and will be some time in the future.

The Habitual has an allomorph -th for when the previous syllable contains an approximant.

Progressive

The progressive, marked by -lt, marks that the action is happening through the present, usually continuously.

tult traphku
eat-PROG now
I'm eating now

There is a sort of three-way ser-estar distinction in the usage of Gnomic, Habitual and Progressive aspects, with the gnomic mostly corresponding to 'ser' and the progressive mostly to 'estar', although the cut isn't exactly the same and the Habitual messes things up (sometimes corresponding to ser and sometimes to estar, if i were to translate):

rjit xanpjat
have-PROG sickness
I am sick

Here the speaker has the flu or something of the like, his sickness is not lasting.

rjith xanpjat
have-HAB sickness
I have been sick

A possible context is that the speaker broke a leg and it didn't heal properly, so its hurting and he is sick in that regard, and has been for a few months/years. (If Tlapthuv speakers got a TARDIS and watched House, him having pain would be in the Habitual)

rjiẕ xanpjat
have-GNO sickness
I am sick

The speaker was born sick, is sick in the present, and probably doesn't have much in the way of hope of stopping to be sick.

The Progressive has an allomorph -t for when the previous syllable contains an approximant.

Future/Irrealis

This is the most tense-like entity in Tlapthuv, being always future, marking the dubiousness:

tliph khu xẕiph
return-FUT 3 tomorrow
He might come back tomorrow

Subjuntive

The subjunctive may be marked by either -j or -0 (zero marking). Zero marking occurs when:

- The verb is polysyllabic and ends in i (hwijesti - to live)
- There is an approximant in the previous syllalbe (rji - to have)

The -j coalesces with the final vowel if it is a, thus resulting in è (thè - to see)

The Subjunctive, in finite clauses, is either an Imperative, when there's no overt subject, or something Deontic (Potential, Optative, etc.) when there is:

ŋej!
sit!

tli khu xẕiph
return-SJV 3 tomorrow
He's probably coming back tomorrow / May he come back tomorrow!

Comparing the example phrases, one can see the future is complex in Tlapthuv, and may come in several flavors, depending on the degree of certainty associated with that assertion.

And, after two weeks, it came. Bow before the might of the full Gigxkpoyan aspect pack!

I was going to add Polarity here too, but it got just so damn long.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10372
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by shimobaatar »

loglorn wrote:And, after two weeks, it came. Bow before the might of the full Gigxkpoyan aspect pack!
Hooray! And time to bow, I guess.
loglorn wrote:There is a sort of three-way ser-estar distinction in the usage of Gnomic, Habitual and Progressive aspects, with the gnomic mostly corresponding to 'ser' and the progressive mostly to 'estar', although the cut isn't exactly the same and the Habitual messes things up (sometimes corresponding to ser and sometimes to estar, if i were to translate):
Although I've quoted just this part, I like the usages you've defined for each aspect, both individually and in relation to the others. It's cool how varied meanings seem to have the potential to be.

Also, I'm definitely a fan of the allomorphy/morphophonology mentioned here in the most recent post.
User avatar
loglorn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1728
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 03:22

Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn »

You could say Tlapthuv has one morphophonological rule: Approximants (w r l j x) are deleted when the previous syllable contains approximants. That is universal, and happens to all approximant containing affixes.

The only possible 'exception' is the adjectival -inu/jnu:

When the adjective is vowel final, that j in -jnu is never deleted. It can be seen in jajnu (warm-NRES). But, if the adjective ends in i, there is another allomorph, -nu:

hjusi -> hjusinu NOT *hjusijnu (blue)

When doing my first language, i came across that pretty wikipedia list of moods, and chose a bunch of the cool sounding ones. When i got to writing stuff in the language (Kamëzet) i ended up never using half of them, because i hadn't really thought about what exactly they do and how they differ from one another. I pay especial attention to that since then.

That's probably not a rare newbie mistake.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
User avatar
loglorn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1728
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 03:22

Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn »

Iŋpij thju toxp ŋujt koh iŋpij kikh wups
DEF.SPEC CL wind conld-RES and DEF.SPEC CL sun
The North Wind and the Sun



thalt iŋpij thju toxp ŋujt koh iŋpij kikh wups le mij thju iŋpij thju ivhklètinu
argue-PROG DEF.SPEC CL wind cold-RES and DEF.SPEC CL sun ACC COP-SJV 3 DEF.SPEC CL strong-SUPL
The sun and the north wind were arguing over who was strongest

jukhxekip joax tzvolt ẕwem jainu.
SEQ-pass-CIRC traveler REL-wear-PROG cloak warm-NRES
When a traveler with a warm cloak came along

tetvuŋip thju le mij iŋpij thju ivhklètinu thju tniswiph le tikhṣutè le iŋpij khu joax prjuth ẕwem jainu
Agree-PFV 3 ACC COP-SJV DEF.SPEC CL strong-SUPL 3 REL-be.able.to-IRR ACC take.out-CAUS-SJV ACC DEF.SPEC CL traveler INS cloak warm-NRES
They agreed that the strongest would be who was able to make the traveler take off the cloak.

pep iŋpij thju toxp ŋujt jukhfip wikaẕ
go-PFV DEF.SPEC CL wind cold-RES SEQ-try-CIRC first
The north wind went to try first

thakvup jukhthakvup iŋpij thju toxp ŋujt
blow-PF SEQ-blow-CIRC DEF.SPEC
The north wind blew and blew

itrap htej htafi tulth iŋpij khu joax ktlèt le xusitè iŋpij khu joax le iŋpij toṣi ẕwem prjuth naf jit khu
do-PF reach-SJV breath LAT DEF.SPEC CL traveler more ACC involve-CAUS-SJV DEF.SPEC CL traveler ACC DEF.SPEC CL cloak INS body GEN 3
The more the breath went at the traveler, the more the traveler drew the cloak around himself

jip iŋpij thju toxp ŋujt le phej.
End-PF DEF.SPEC CL wind cold-RES ACC try-SJV
The north wind finished trying

tnap iŋpij kikh wups le phej.
start-PFV DEF.SPEC CL sun ACC try-SJV
The sun started to try.

phiŋtfip jukhphiŋtfip iŋpij kikh wups
Shine-PFV SEQ-shine-CIRC DEF.SPEC CL sun
The sun shone and shone

jukhṣikhṣup iŋpij khu joax le iŋpij toṣi ẕwem.
SEQ-take.out-CIRC DEF.SPEC CL traveler ACC traveler ACC DEF.SPEC CL coat
and the traveler removed the cloak.

tetvuŋip iŋpij thju toxp ŋujt le mij iŋpij kikh wups iŋpij thju ivhklètinu.
agree-PF DEF.SPEC CL wind cold-RES ACC COP-SJV DEF.SPEC CL sun DEF.SPEC CL strong-SUPL
The north wind agreed that the sun was strongest.

I've been rather busy (i get the feeling everybody has), so my conlanging rhythm has been been severed. The little i've been conlanging has been directed at Chifjaeśí's Semantic Drift history.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
User avatar
loglorn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1728
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 03:22

Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn »

Verbs Part 2: Polarity and Voice

1. Polarity

Negative polarity is marked by the prefix i-. i- has an allomorph k- before leniting roots. Such marker can be applied to all finite verb forms (any Voice+Aspect combination).

Due to the behavior of leniting forms (especially with aspirated plosives), there are some pairs of verbs that are normally homophones, but that are distinguished in negative forms, and pairs of verbs who are normally distinct which merge in negative forms:

pep - go; pep - take; phep - wake up; phep - try

ipep - didn't go; kfep - didn't take; iphep - didn't wake up; kfep - didn't try

There are also forms where the four are distinct (but they are not the ones to be dealt with in this post):

thipep; thifep; thiphep; thihep; respectively.

2. Voice

2.0 Transitivity and Alignment

Pertinent to the discussion of voices is the discussion of transitivity and alignment:

Tlapthuv verbs can be intransitive, transitive or ditransitive. Transitiveness is fixed in the vast majority of cases, there being some pairs of verbs differing only in transitivity.

Intrasitive clauses have only a subject (Nominative).

Transitive clauses display a subject (Nominative) and an object (Accusative), Tlapthuv has thus nom-acc alignment.

Ditransitive clauses show a subject (Nominative), a Theme (Instrumental) and a Recipient (Accusative). Tlapthuv is thus dechticaetiative.

2.1 Passive

Passive of Transitives

The passive demotes the subject, relegating it to an optional oblique accompanied by the instrumental preposition, while promoting the object to subject position. The resulting verb is intransitive. This operation is usually related to pragmatic concerns such as keeping the topic as the subject.

thalt kik le iŋpij tju pat
see-PROG 1s ACC DEF.SPEC CL cat
I see the cat

vs.

thajat iŋpij tju pat (prjuth kik)
tha-ja-lt iŋpij tju pat (prjuth kik)
see-PASS-PROG DEF.SPEC CL cat (INS 1s)
The cat is seen (by me)

Passive of Ditransitives

The passive of a ditransitive demotes the subject to an optional oblique, promotes the Recipient to subject position and the Theme to object position. The resulting verb is transitive:

kfap kik le juṣ prjuth pat
give-PFV 1s ACC 2 INS cat
I gave you a cat

vs.

kfajap juṣ le pat (prjuth kik)
give-PASS-PFV 2 ACC cat (INS 1s)
You were given a cat (by me)

To the transitive verb resulting of Ditransitive + Passive, the Passive can be applied once more:

kfajaap pat (prjuth kik) (tulth juṣ)
kfa-ja-ja-p
give-PASS-PASS-PFV cat (INS 1s) (LAT 2)
A cat was given (by me) (to you)

The original Theme ends as the subject, while the original subject ends as an oblique marked by the instrumental and the original Recipient ends as an oblique marked by the lative.

The Passive surfaces normally as -ja, but has an allomorph -a if the previous syllable has approximants (which always is the case in double passives). Double passives then surface as either -jaa or -aja, thus kfajaalt (kfa-ja-ja-lt) and xoajat (xo-ja-ja-lt).

2.2 Causative

The Causative adds another valency slot to the verb, while expressing that the Causer made the Causee to act. Both Intrasitives and Transitives can be Causativized, becoming, respectively, Transitive and Ditransitive. The object is demoted to instrumental and the subject to object, while a new participant (the Causer) is introduced as the subject.

thap kik le pat
see-PPFV 1s ACC DEF.SPEC CL cat
I saw a cat

vs.

thatap juṣ le kik prjuth pat
see-CAUS-PFV 2 ACC 1s INS cat
You showed me (made me see) a cat

kholt kik
run-PROG 1s
I am running

vs.

khotalt juṣ le kik
run-CAUS-PROG 2 ACC 1s
You make me run

Passive of the Causative

The Causative can be Passivized, for topicness concerns or in order to emphasize the forcefulness of the causing:

khotèat kik prjuth juṣ
run-CAUS-PASS-PROG 1s INS 2
I am being made to run (running now is expressly against my will)

-ta-ja surfaces as -tèa

2.3 Reflexive

The reflexive is formed as PASS-CAUS, and it's sole argument is accusative:

roatalt le juṣ
ro-jata-lt le juṣ
hurt-REFL-PROG ACC 2
You are hurting yourself
Last edited by loglorn on 18 Dec 2015 14:14, edited 1 time in total.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10372
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by shimobaatar »

Very interesting overall! Everything's explained well, in my opinion, and I don't believe I have any questions, but these are some of the points that I particularly liked:
loglorn wrote: Due to the behavior of leniting forms (especially with aspirated plosives), there are some pairs of verbs that are normally homophones, but that are distinguished in negative forms, and pairs of verbs who are normally distinct which merge in negative forms:
Spoiler:
pep - go; pep - take; phep - wake up; phep - try

ipep - didn't go; kfep - didn't take; iphep - didn't wake up; kfep - didn't try
There are also forms where the four are distinct (but they are not the ones to be dealt with in this post):

thipep; thifep; thiphep; thihep; respectively.
I think that's awesome. Was this planned, or did things turn out like this more or less on their own?
loglorn wrote: To the transitive verb resulting of Ditransitive + Passive, the Passive can be applied once more:
Spoiler:
kfajaap pat (prjuth kik) (tulth juṣ)
kfa-ja-ja-p
give-PASS-PASS-PFV cat (INS 1s) (LAT 2)
A cat was given (by me) (to you)
The original Theme ends as the subject, while the original subject ends as an oblique marked by the instrumental and the original Recipient ends as an oblique marked by the lative.

The Passive surfaces normally as -ja, but has an allomorph -a if the previous syllable has approximants (which always is the case in double passives). Double passives then surface as either -jaa or -aja, thus kfajaalt (kfa-ja-ja-lt) and xoajat (xo-ja-ja-lt).
Allomorphs are always fun, and I quite like the use of the lative preposition to mark what was originally the recipient in situations like these.
loglorn wrote: The reflexive is formed as PASS-CAUS, and it's sole argument is accusative:
Spoiler:
roatalt le juṣ
ro-jata-lt le juṣ
hurt-REFL-PROG ACC 2
You are hurting yourself
Nice. I'm definitely a fan of having the reflexive voice marked on the verb like that, and combining the passive and causative affixes is a cool way to mark it, in my opinion. I also like the fact that the only argument of the verb is accusative.
User avatar
loglorn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1728
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 03:22

Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn »

shimobaatar wrote:Very interesting overall! Everything's explained well, in my opinion, and I don't believe I have any questions, but these are some of the points that I particularly liked:
loglorn wrote: Due to the behavior of leniting forms (especially with aspirated plosives), there are some pairs of verbs that are normally homophones, but that are distinguished in negative forms, and pairs of verbs who are normally distinct which merge in negative forms:
Spoiler:
pep - go; pep - take; phep - wake up; phep - try

ipep - didn't go; kfep - didn't take; iphep - didn't wake up; kfep - didn't try
There are also forms where the four are distinct (but they are not the ones to be dealt with in this post):

thipep; thifep; thiphep; thihep; respectively.
I think that's awesome. Was this planned, or did things turn out like this more or less on their own?
Unplanned really. I just made a bunch of independent decisions (with sc's making some of them for me) and only realized how they were interacting while writing the post. Overall, I make very few morphology oriented decisions when coming up with sound changes, which accounts for most daughterlangs being as tidily agglutinative as the protolang, but makes crazy stuff much more interesting when it happens 'on its own'.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10372
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by shimobaatar »

loglorn wrote:Unplanned really. I just made a bunch of independent decisions (with sc's making some of them for me) and only realized how they were interacting while writing the post. Overall, I make very few morphology oriented decisions when coming up with sound changes, which accounts for most daughterlangs being as tidily agglutinative as the protolang, but makes crazy stuff much more interesting when it happens 'on its own'.
Oh, cool; thanks for the explanation!
User avatar
loglorn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1728
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 03:22

Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

Post by loglorn »

    Non-Finite Clauses

    1. Clauses Functioning as Nouns

    This section was going to be called 'Complement Clauses', but i realized that terminology was going to get somewhat confusing, since there were clauses patterning with complement clauses that filled roles other than that of complement clauses, and they were going to figure here.

    Clauses where the verb is marked with the Subjunctive can pattern much like nouns, receiving prepositions to fill into a variety of roles inside other clauses. They can't, however, receive plain noun modifiers, such as genitives, adjectives and the like.

    1.1 As Complements

    As opposed to Retla, Aspect is not contrasted in Complement clauses, because the verb is always marked as subjunctive.

    ktuẕ kik le tuj le aft
    like-GNO 1PS ACC eat-SJV ACC meat
    I like to eat meat

    thap kik le tuj pi le juth kikh
    see-PFV 1PS ACC see-SJV CL.3 ACC orange CL
    I saw her eating oranges

    As complements of pheki and ptujhi

    What translates as the conjunctions 'before' and 'after' is a construction where both clauses are arguments of either 'pheki' or 'ptujhi', which receive the relevant aspectual information.

    pheki hnuj hmis le hnuj juṣ
    precede-SJV die-SJV ocean ACC die-SJV 2P
    May the Ocean die before you do (What you wish for in someone's birthday, as the Ocean is a mythical immortal entity)
    lit. May the ocean dying precede your dying

    ptujhip xihswiphi thuj khu trit le thè le...
    succeed-PFV never-SJV see-SJV CL.3 again ACC see-SJV ACC
    He never slept again after seeing...

    1.2 Used with adpositions other than le

    With prjuth

    When used with prjuth, clauses usually take a causal meaning, akin to the conjunction 'because':

    pipizip pi prjuth pihè le thè le jèh
    run.away-PFV CL.3 INS want-SJV ACC see-SJV ACC sky
    He ran away because he wanted to see the sky

    With tat

    The clause happens simultaneously to the main one. It implies, necessarily, that the subject is shared.

    tat xuutè, phnitèalth khu prjuth witèut
    LOC fish-SJV think-CAUS-PASS-HAB 3.CL INS wife
    While fishing, he was thinking about his wife

    With tulth

    With the Lative tulth, the clause gets the notion of purpose, 'in order to':

    itrap khu le thju tulth itratè praẕkhinu
    do-PFV 3.CL ACC CL LAT do-CAUS-SJV happy-ADVZ
    He did that to make you happy

    With jit

    This is used to form Relative clauses, but as opposed to the relative clauses in the next section, these have very specific semantics; they are used for qualities perceived as inherent.

    pafkfuth jit tuj le khap
    tribe GEN eat-SJV ACC person
    Tribe that eats persons

    khap jit tepi le thle
    person GEN cut ACC tree
    Person who cuts trees

    Shortenings of this construction are a common mechanism for creating adjectives and nouns (they are not very differentiated anyway):

    jit tuj le khap -> tujkhap : cannibal

    jit tepi le thle -> tepithle : lumberman

    2. Relative Clauses

    The verb, when used in relative clauses, is marked bit the prefix th-. In the presence of this prefix, the negative always assumes the i- allomorph.
    In the last post i wrote:pip - go; pip - take; phip - wake up; phip - try

    ipip - didn't go; kfip - didn't take; iphip - didn't wake up; kfip - didn't try

    There are also forms where the four are distinct (but they are not the ones to be dealt with in this post):

    thipip; thifip; thiphip; thihip; respectively.
    The form where all four are distinct is the REL-NEG-

    Relative (and, by the way, negative) forms of the Subjunctive do not exist.

    nilt le iŋpij tju jut paf thxup, tev xihswiphip thè le thju jit tjeth jit traph!
    know-PROG ACC DEF.SPEC CL fish all-RES REL-catch-PFV but never-PFV see-SJV ACC thing GEN likelihood GEN PROX
    I remember every single fish i've caught, but i've never seen anything like this!

    3. Converbs

    The converbs are non-finite forms expressing several notions of adverbial subordination. They are marked through prefixes and don't distinguish aspect, voice or polarity.

    3.0 Morphophonemic results of prefixes and stress movement

    All the Converb morphemes are prefixes that take the stress away from the verbal root, here i'll mention the regular processes verbs undergo in such environment. Less regular ones will be noted separately.

    I already explained the workings of lenition when prefixes are around:
    verbs who lenite in the presence of prefixes. The can only happen with verbs starting in p, ph, t or th. Plain plosives always lenite to their fricative counterparts. Aspirated plosives who lenite are somewhat weird; they lenite to their fricatives after k-, th- and jukh- (prefixes ending in plosives) and to /h/ elsewhere.
    Roots starting with /k/ also undergo morphopho lenition after the Converb prefixes. If the root starts in kV, it will lenite to /j/ only after consonant final converb prefixes:

    kip - call-PFV vs. tikip - SIM-call-PFV vs. jukhjip - SEQ-call-PFV

    If they start with kC, they lenite to /j/ after vowel final converbs and /i/ after consonant final ones:

    ktè - find-PFV vs. tijtalt - SIM-find-PROG vs. jukhitap - SEQ-find-PFV

    Monosyllabic verb roots with /e/ or /o/ are always reduced to /i u/ when they become unstressed (the negative i- does not receive stress). Various diachronics reasons prevented that from happening with polysyllabic verbs.

    joẕ - walk-GNO vs. kaẕjuẕ - CNSQ-walk-GNO

    3.1 Simultaneous

    The simultaneous marks that the too actions happen simultaneously, but there's no need for them to share subjects.

    nitèap pi le knij le sok thtleph khu, tipilt pezxah
    realize-PFV 3.CL ACC NEG-know-SJV ACC question REL-return-FUT 3.CL SIM-go-PROG away
    As he went away, she realized she didn't know if he'd come back

    It is marked by ti-, while the verb is always marked as Progressive.

    3.2 Sequential

    This form marks that one action starts as the other ends, without implying causality.

    itrap jukhphip
    do-PFV SEQ-wake.up-PFV
    I'll do it after i wake up (context implies futurity in this case, as the hearer must know i have not done it yet)

    Marked by jukh-, the verb is always marked as perfective.

    3.3 Consequential

    The consequential marks that one action is a logical consequence of the other, in that it'll happen every time the other actual does. It's as factual as a conditional gets. The verb always stands gnomic.

    ptaph tulth kijt, kaẕhnuẕ khu
    deal.blow-FUT LAT heart CNSQ-die-GNO 3.CL
    When you deal a blow to the heart, someone dies

    Marked by kaẕ-. keẕ- if the verb contains /i/.

    3.4 Conditional

    This Converb denotes a counterfactual relation.

    khoj tapheph thju
    run COND-hear-FUT thing
    Run if you hear something

    Marked by ta-, the verb is always Future.

    3.5 Instances of Irregularity
    • All Converb Forms of the verb hej are identical to those of kij
    • ti- surfaces as te- with phtè, tatè, ẕè and tlè.
    • kaẕ + joẕ surfaces as kaẕijuẕ, not *kaẕjuẕ
    • kaẕ + xeki surfaces as keẕixekiẕ not *keẕxekiẕ

    Wow. I was unusually creative with those example sentences. With this i think i explained everything i have on Tlapthuv so i'll mostly answer stuff from now on.

    I can finally get Tlapthuv off my conscience and work on Chífjaeśí now.
    Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

    Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

    Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
    shimobaatar
    korean
    korean
    Posts: 10372
    Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
    Location: UTC-04:00

    Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

    Post by shimobaatar »

    loglorn wrote: As opposed to Retla, Aspect is not contrasted in Complement clauses, because the verb is always marked as subjunctive.
    loglorn wrote: What translates as the conjunctions 'before' and 'after' is a construction where both clauses are arguments of either 'pheki' or 'ptujhi', which receive the relevant aspectual information.
    So aspect can be marked in other ways, it would seem?
    loglorn wrote: pheki hnuj hmis le hnuj juṣ
    precede-SJV die-SJV ocean ACC die-SJV 2P
    May the Ocean die before you do (What you wish for in someone's birthday, as the Ocean is a mythical immortal entity)
    lit. May the ocean dying precede your dying
    Cool!
    loglorn wrote: Relative (and, by the way, negative) forms of the Subjunctive do not exist.
    Dumb question, most likely, but why not?
    loglorn wrote: The converbs are non-finite forms expressing several notions of adverbial subordination. They are marked through prefixes and don't distinguish aspect, voice or polarity.
    Are there no ways to distinguish aspect, voice, or polarity in these situations?
    loglorn wrote:With this i think i explained everything i have on Tlapthuv so i'll mostly answer stuff from now on.
    Wow, congratulations! Let us know if you ever have anything more to share. I'm afraid I don't have any more questions at the moment other than the ones above; hopefully those aren't too stupid.
    User avatar
    qwed117
    mongolian
    mongolian
    Posts: 4094
    Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

    Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

    Post by qwed117 »

    Kinda late to bring this up but...
    loglorn wrote:
    Sḿtuval wrote:I feel like my lang family's boring after reading both gigxkpoyan threads. [xD]

    Lots of cool stuff here. [tick]
    I felt like my languages were boring when I read your thread so I guess we're even [;)]
    Read my threads, it'll make you both feel better. (Read here: I was a noob, and I am still a noob, and AKG looks ugly) [;(]
    Spoiler:
    My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

    Minicity has fallen :(
    The SqwedgePad
    User avatar
    loglorn
    mayan
    mayan
    Posts: 1728
    Joined: 17 Mar 2014 03:22

    Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

    Post by loglorn »

    shimobaatar wrote:
    loglorn wrote: As opposed to Retla, Aspect is not contrasted in Complement clauses, because the verb is always marked as subjunctive.
    loglorn wrote: What translates as the conjunctions 'before' and 'after' is a construction where both clauses are arguments of either 'pheki' or 'ptujhi', which receive the relevant aspectual information.
    So aspect can be marked in other ways, it would seem?
    Those are very standard Auxiliary Verb Constructions, as far as i can tell.
    shimobaatar wrote:
    loglorn wrote: Relative (and, by the way, negative) forms of the Subjunctive do not exist.
    Dumb question, most likely, but why not?
    Historical reasons. In PG the subjunctive did not pattern with the aspects, it was instead one of many nominalizations, that crept into the aspect system in the course of Tlapthuv development. That means that processes that predate it's creeping into the aspect system are still restricted in combining.

    Relativizing a negative verb was also similarly disallowed in PG, but semantics were quite more helpful in this case.
    shimobaatar wrote:
    loglorn wrote:The converbs are non-finite forms expressing several notions of adverbial subordination. They are marked through prefixes and don't distinguish aspect, voice or polarity.
    Are there no ways to distinguish aspect, voice, or polarity in these situations?
    As written in the very phrase you posted, converbs are subordinate verb forms, so aspect, voice and polarity are supplied by the matrix verb.

    I think i could write my explanations better. Good thing you ask for clarification whenever it is needed.

    And today i can safely say i've been shimo'd.
    Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

    Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

    Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
    shimobaatar
    korean
    korean
    Posts: 10372
    Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
    Location: UTC-04:00

    Re: Tlapthuv, Proto-Gigxkpoyan's Second Son

    Post by shimobaatar »

    loglorn wrote:Those are very standard Auxiliary Verb Constructions, as far as i can tell.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest something was wrong or anything along those lines.
    loglorn wrote:Historical reasons. In PG the subjunctive did not pattern with the aspects, it was instead one of many nominalizations, that crept into the aspect system in the course of Tlapthuv development. That means that processes that predate it's creeping into the aspect system are still restricted in combining.

    Relativizing a negative verb was also similarly disallowed in PG, but semantics were quite more helpful in this case.
    loglorn wrote:As written in the very phrase you posted, converbs are subordinate verb forms, so aspect, voice and polarity are supplied by the matrix verb.
    Ah, understood. Thanks for answering my questions, especially those which, in hindsight, have somewhat obvious answers (AKA the "stupid" questions)!
    loglorn wrote: And today i can safely say i've been shimo'd.
    Haha, hopefully that's not a bad thing.
    Post Reply