Collabromlang

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qwed117
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by qwed117 »

85)CBDAE
86)A
87)B
88)C
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Esneirra973
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by Esneirra973 »

85) CDBAE
86) B
87) A
88) B
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by Creyeditor »

cedh wrote:- The changes p/˦/V_[sʃ] followed by p[ʃs]/ff/_ have been voted for, but they don't make much sense in this combination IMO, because /ps/ almost always appears after vowels. In www.perseus.tufts.edu I have found only four words of reasonable frequency that would be affected by our second rule: psalmus > ffalmu, psalterium > ffalírju, palimpsestus > palimffìθ, and the prefix pseudo- > ffiuda-.
I ust thought of a different solution for this. How about making these words very frequent? ffalmu could have a semantic shift to mean song, sound, voice, ffalírju could become musical instrument > tool. palimpsestus would become document and the prefix pseudo could also be used with verbs in the sense of mis-.
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by Esneirra973 »

Creyeditor wrote:
cedh wrote:- The changes p/˦/V_[sʃ] followed by p[ʃs]/ff/_ have been voted for, but they don't make much sense in this combination IMO, because /ps/ almost always appears after vowels. In www.perseus.tufts.edu I have found only four words of reasonable frequency that would be affected by our second rule: psalmus > ffalmu, psalterium > ffalírju, palimpsestus > palimffìθ, and the prefix pseudo- > ffiuda-.
I ust thought of a different solution for this. How about making these words very frequent? ffalmu could have a semantic shift to mean song, sound, voice, ffalírju could become musical instrument > tool. palimpsestus would become document and the prefix pseudo could also be used with verbs in the sense of mis-.
I like that idea alot! It would be interesting to see it in action.
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by cedh »

gokupwned5 wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
cedh wrote:- The changes p/˦/V_[sʃ] followed by p[ʃs]/ff/_ have been voted for, but they don't make much sense in this combination IMO, because /ps/ almost always appears after vowels. In www.perseus.tufts.edu I have found only four words of reasonable frequency that would be affected by our second rule: psalmus > ffalmu, psalterium > ffalírju, palimpsestus > palimffìθ, and the prefix pseudo- > ffiuda-.
I ust thought of a different solution for this. How about making these words very frequent? ffalmu could have a semantic shift to mean song, sound, voice, ffalírju could become musical instrument > tool. palimpsestus would become document and the prefix pseudo could also be used with verbs in the sense of mis-.
I like that idea alot! It would be interesting to see it in action.
Yes, I like it too.
However, my point was that the specific combination of sound changes does not make too much sense. IMHO we have assembled a couple of changes that seem fine individually, but do not give the phonological history of this language a coherent feel. My suggestion to simplify all geminates with tonal effects was aimed to reduce this kind of haphazardness a bit. An alternative option would be to shift all /ps/ to /ff/ (except possibly word-finally and/or after a consonant), and then keep geminate consonants. But if /ff/ is the only word-initial geminate (which it currently is), it's still likely to simplify in that position, so if we choose that route, we should probably reduce other clusters similarly to get other word-initial geminates.

In other words, I'd consider it a good idea to (a) do some cleanup before proceeding, and then (b) to write voting proposals in such a way that they feel systematic (i.e. a rule like p/˦/V_[sʃ] is probably too specific unless we want to clean up a few unwanted clusters after applying other, more systematic sound changes; better rules would look like e.g. [-voiced]/˦/V_[sʃ] or [+plosive][sʃ]/[+fricative+long]/_)
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by Esneirra973 »

cedh wrote:
gokupwned5 wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
cedh wrote:- The changes p/˦/V_[sʃ] followed by p[ʃs]/ff/_ have been voted for, but they don't make much sense in this combination IMO, because /ps/ almost always appears after vowels. In www.perseus.tufts.edu I have found only four words of reasonable frequency that would be affected by our second rule: psalmus > ffalmu, psalterium > ffalírju, palimpsestus > palimffìθ, and the prefix pseudo- > ffiuda-.
I ust thought of a different solution for this. How about making these words very frequent? ffalmu could have a semantic shift to mean song, sound, voice, ffalírju could become musical instrument > tool. palimpsestus would become document and the prefix pseudo could also be used with verbs in the sense of mis-.
I like that idea alot! It would be interesting to see it in action.
Yes, I like it too.
However, my point was that the specific combination of sound changes does not make too much sense. IMHO we have assembled a couple of changes that seem fine individually, but do not give the phonological history of this language a coherent feel. My suggestion to simplify all geminates with tonal effects was aimed to reduce this kind of haphazardness a bit. An alternative option would be to shift all /ps/ to /ff/ (except possibly word-finally and/or after a consonant), and then keep geminate consonants. But if /ff/ is the only word-initial geminate (which it currently is), it's still likely to simplify in that position, so if we choose that route, we should probably reduce other clusters similarly to get other word-initial geminates.

In other words, I'd consider it a good idea to (a) do some cleanup before proceeding, and then (b) to write voting proposals in such a way that they feel systematic (i.e. a rule like p/˦/V_[sʃ] is probably too specific unless we want to clean up a few unwanted clusters after applying other, more systematic sound changes; better rules would look like e.g. [-voiced]/˦/V_[sʃ] or [+plosive][sʃ]/[+fricative+long]/_)
I see your point.
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by qwed117 »

Ok, looking at cedh's comment, I have a few comments to make on it
cedh wrote:I've had a look at the sound changes and their outcomes, and I have a few comments:

- We need a few clean-up rules. For instance, adop'tare currently gives ada˦w'ta˨r (or ada˦wa˦ra if the stress is not explicitly marked), which should probably be adau˦'ta˨r instead, and 'sanctus gives 'sanxtu, which should probably be either 'sanxu˦ or 'sanku˦.
Looking at the sound changes themselves ADOPTARE should become ada˦w'a˦ra, it seems that stress hasn't been conditioned in. I haven't looked back at the vote, but it's probable that stress wasn't meant to become a factor, like you noted.

SANCTUS appears to have been derived from a hypothetical *santum in all Romance languages. That's why Romanian gives sânt instead of *sâmt. Aromanian appears to have sãmtu with the mt as a reflex of nct, but the definition below gives a relatively succinct explanation for why *santum should still be preferred: nt (sentio) became mt (sãmtu) regularly in Aromanian. *santum thus gives san'a˦u or more likely san'aw˦

I've added the new Greek simplifications into the most recent batch at the bottom; I don't think it's fully updated yet though. Someone else should check to make sure (probably you, given how much I'm relying on you now [:P])
I think I'll take executive action on the ps > ff change. One f it shall be

I don't know if you intended to use the nominative form of urbs, but the nominative form is only rarely transferred on to the descendants of a language. Only some varieties of Rumansch use the nominative wholesale. In most cases it's just one or two words that use the nominative for derivation, like hom in French.

Thank you for commenting on the progress; I know it's been nearly half a year since I touched this, but thank you for your continued patience in dealing with me. I'd like to apologize for being so slow on this thread, but unfortunately there still isn't much that I can do to stop that. [:(]

Criticism Updated but not Actually updated Diachronics
Spoiler:
V=aeiou
L=āēīōū
C=ptckqbdgmnŋlrhsjwʦxθʃɓɗɠ
F=ie
B=ou
S=ptk
Z=bdg
I=ɓɗɠ
T=˦ɧ˨
P=mbp



-- Vowel Changes --

--1st cent.
-C-
ph/f/_
th/t/_
kh/k/_
v/w/_
u/w/_[VL]
i/j/_[VL]
[sm]//_#
t/ʦ/_j
x/ks/_
c/k/_

-V-
y/ɪ/_
e/ɛ/_/V_
i/ɪ/_
o/ɔ/_
u/ʊ/_/V_

--2nd cent.
ā/a/_
ae/ɛ/_
oe/e/_
ē/e/_
ī/i/_
ō/o/_
ū/u/_

--3rd-4th cent.

qw/k/_[iɪɛe]
gw/g/_[iɪeɛ]
qw/pp/V_V
gw/bb/V_V
qw/p/_
gw/b/_
kt/xt/_

ɪ/e/_
ʊ/o/_

sp/f/_
st/θ/_
sk/x/_
sm/f/_
s'p/'f/_
s't/'θ/_
s'k/'x/_
s'm/'f/_

--5th-6th cent.
ks/k/_#
ks/x/V_V
ks/ʃ/_
sj/ʃ/_
s/ʃ/_[iɛe]

ɛ/ɛ*/[rhw]_
ɛ/i/_/_*
*//_
e/ei/'(C)(C)(C)_
e/i/_/_V
o/ou/'(C)(C)(C)_
ou/au/_
/*/'(C)(C)(C)au_
au/ɔ/_/_*
o/u/_/_V
*//_
[wu]/g/V_V

--7th-8th cent.

ɔ/ɑ/_
ɛ/æ/_
ei/ai/_
ll/ɗ/_
ŋn/ɠ/_
mn/ɓ/_
Zr/I/_
--9th-10th cent.
[æɑ]/a/_
s/ʃ/_(')ʃ
p/˦w/_(')t
t/*˦/V(T)C(')_V
V/V˦/*˦_
*˦//_
ja/ʃa˦/[[#C]_P
Vi/V˦*/_(C)s
s/ʃ/*(C)_
*//_
[aou]/*/V(C)_#
/˨/V_(C)*#
*//_
p/˦/V_[sʃ]
p[ʃs]/ff/_
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Esneirra973
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by Esneirra973 »

It's alright! I could try spreading awareness of the thread tomorrow to increase the pace.
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by qwed117 »

gokupwned5 wrote:It's alright! I could try spreading awareness of the thread tomorrow to increase the pace.
It's not you, it's me. I'm not exactly up to making continuous posts until mid May, at best. I'll try to get a new set of questions. It'll all be clean up though.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Esneirra973
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by Esneirra973 »

Alright!
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by Dormouse559 »

qwed117 wrote:SANCTUS appears to have been derived from a hypothetical *santum in all Romance languages.
Not in all. French at least doesn't bear that out. It has "saint" /sɛ̃/, which implies some kind of palatalization/raising effect from the /k/. Without it, you'd get "sant" /sɑ̃/.
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by qwed117 »

Dormouse559 wrote:
qwed117 wrote:SANCTUS appears to have been derived from a hypothetical *santum in all Romance languages.
Not in all. French at least doesn't bear that out. It has "saint" /sɛ̃/, which implies some kind of palatalization/raising effect from the /k/. Without it, you'd get "sant" /sɑ̃/.
It seems that French (and derived languages) is merely an outlier. In Spanish you'd expect something along the lines of sentu/senchu/sanchu. In Romanian, you would expect sâmpt or sâmt. The only other language that appears to have some trace of the medial k is Ladin, with sent.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Esneirra973
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by Esneirra973 »

In Spanish, the form is santo.
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by Dormouse559 »

qwed117 wrote:The only other language that appears to have some trace of the medial k is Ladin, with sent.
And some Arpitan dialects. I'd wager Romansh, too; Wiktionary gives sontg, sogn, sench. Might it be an areal feature? These languages are grouped together pretty neatly.
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by qwed117 »

Dormouse559 wrote:
qwed117 wrote:The only other language that appears to have some trace of the medial k is Ladin, with sent.
And some Arpitan dialects. I'd wager Romansh, too; Wiktionary gives sontg, sogn, sench. Might it be an areal feature? These languages are grouped together pretty neatly.
Could be. I assumed that tg was the normal result of t in front of front vowels, but that doesn't look to be the case regarding civitas, my go to word for tF combinations. Marcau has martgo from mercatus (assuming a shift to merctum in the latter)
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by Ælfwine »

Like I said, it may be wise to entrust someone else to continue the romlang when you are unable to commit.

Or, perhaps people can suggest options to be voted upon.
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by qwed117 »

Ælfwine wrote:Like I said, it may be wise to entrust someone else to continue the romlang when you are unable to commit.

Or, perhaps people can suggest options to be voted upon.
I'm 100% on board for others to continue the romlang creation. I would say though to leave the scenario stuff out, because different writers makes a whole lot different of a situation.

And I'm always open for people to give new proposals; whether by posting in this thread or pming me or the other "owner". [:)]
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Esneirra973
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by Esneirra973 »

I would be willing! I am available every week day from 15:00 to 16:00 EST and on weekends I am available all day. I have enough time to continue the thread at a faster pace.
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by qwed117 »

gokupwned5 wrote:I would be willing! I am available every week day from 15:00 to 16:00 EST and on weekends I am available all day. I have enough time to continue the thread at a faster pace.
I think we should have some sort of rotation, or something that allows multiple people to take the helm of the project. I would also ask that I have time to sort of "teach" the SCA2 rules, question formats or such to the new director, so they can pass it on to the next, and so on.

We should add something so that a poorly worded question can be thrown out.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Esneirra973
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Re: Collabromlang

Post by Esneirra973 »

We could do a quick recap listing all the sound changes thus far as well as any loan words or migration that occurred.
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