Conlang Areal Tests

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HoskhMatriarch
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Conlang Areal Tests

Post by HoskhMatriarch » Wed 17 Aug 2016, 09:24

Someone on ZBB made a "SAE Test". I was quite excited to take it so I could put down all the internally-headed relative clauses and locational comparatives and such in my language that I thought were so cool, after all, I'm sure it would be non-SAE enough that ZBB people wouldn't make fun of it other langs I've done, on the other hand, I would not enter in something like that. Not everything has to be super "exotic" to be good, it just has to be what it's supposed to be at the very least. It turned out pretty much to be just a phonology test, and I was like "wait, where's the grammar parts? That's the coolest part of a language to me". Someone else in the chatroom I was in commented that originally, SAE was pretty much defined by grammar rather than phonology, and then someone made an "SAE Grammar Test" which some people (although not as many as on the phonology test) decided to take (and people seemed to largely not understand grammar as much as phonology). After that the guy who made that test started making a Siberian test and a bunch of other Sprachbunde (although he hasn't released them yet, he says he's making them for all the areas he can). The ZBB people don't seem to have ripped apart any langs for being "too SAE" on their forum yet, so hopefully I can find enough info for natlangs besides Chechen to enter the data of (although Chechen at least saves conlangs with up to 64.5 SAE points in their phonologies from being considered "too European" by ZBBers who think that making a language that looks like German or French is terrible, but making one like Vietnamese or Navajo is great. Guys, a relex of Inuktitut is just as inventive as a relex of English, that is to say, not at all, and a lang that could fit in SAE can be really cool and original).

Anyways, here are some tests for anyone who wants:

SAE Phonology Test: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
SAE Grammar Test: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
Siberian Test: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
SE Asian Test: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... AWXro/edit
West African Test: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1976467052

When the others are released/if people make others I'll post their links here as well. It'll be funny to see most of the tonal langs be basically Chinese and most of the polylangs be basically American, among other things. I hope someone has an Australian lang, Australian langs are really underappreciated.
Last edited by HoskhMatriarch on Thu 18 Aug 2016, 08:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by Keenir » Wed 17 Aug 2016, 10:02

I think the point originally was that it was in phonology that people were being cliché-edly SAE, ergo the test.
HoskhMatriarch wrote:and a lang that could fit in SAE can be really cool and original).
nobody said otherwise.


wait...
I was quite excited to take it so I could put down all the internally-headed relative clauses and locational comparatives and such in my language that I thought were so cool,
can we see the language? if its SAE, we'll tell you.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by MrKrov » Wed 17 Aug 2016, 11:13

This is just a soapbox. You know they don't really conlang.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by Fanael » Wed 17 Aug 2016, 13:26

Keenir wrote:I think the point originally was that it was in phonology that people were being cliché-edly SAE, ergo the test.
Yes, even the name of the thread in question is "How to design a non-European phonology". Why would anyone expect it to be about anything but phonology is beyond me.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 17 Aug 2016, 13:33

Really nice idea, those tests [:)]
I guess it's a nice tool, if you want to detect any subconscious PIE influence.
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HoskhMatriarch
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by HoskhMatriarch » Wed 17 Aug 2016, 23:27

Fanael wrote:
Keenir wrote:I think the point originally was that it was in phonology that people were being cliché-edly SAE, ergo the test.
Yes, even the name of the thread in question is "How to design a non-European phonology". Why would anyone expect it to be about anything but phonology is beyond me.
Someone in a chatroom posted a link though, not from ZBB, so that context wasn't there. They just said "hey there's this SAE test from ZBB" and everyone did it..
MrKrov wrote:This is just a soapbox. You know they don't really conlang.
So unless I post everything for you I don't do anything? People showed not very much interest last time I posted something over a language so I haven't bothered since.
Keenir wrote: can we see the language? if its SAE, we'll tell you.
Didn't you see it on the links? The phonology is also supposed to be European-ish.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by clawgrip » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 00:59

HoskhMatriarch wrote:Someone in a chatroom posted a link though, not from ZBB, so that context wasn't there. They just said "hey there's this SAE test from ZBB" and everyone did it..
But once you got to the thread and looked at it and saw that the title of the thread explicitly labelled it a phonology thread, you figured out that it was only intended to be a phonology test, right? But when you discuss it here, you misrepresent it by calling it a "SAE test" and then criticizing it for being a phonology test! This seems unnecessary to me.
MrKrov wrote:This is just a soapbox. You know they don't really conlang.
So unless I post everything for you I don't do anything? People showed not very much interest last time I posted something over a language so I haven't bothered since.
Whoa, whoa calm down there! MrKrov was clearly criticizing some members of the ZBB, not you; reread the comment and you will see.
Keenir wrote: can we see the language? if its SAE, we'll tell you.
Didn't you see it on the links? The phonology is also supposed to be European-ish.
You see what's going on here I hope. In one line you say people are not very interested in seeing your language, but then when Keenir actually asks to see it, you are dismissive. Keenir consistently asks to see examples of your language, and you rarely if ever provide them. Maybe people are more interested than you think. Try posting some stuff! People often read and do not comment. Instead of looking at the number of replies, look at the number of thread views.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by HoskhMatriarch » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 03:14

clawgrip wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Someone in a chatroom posted a link though, not from ZBB, so that context wasn't there. They just said "hey there's this SAE test from ZBB" and everyone did it..
But once you got to the thread and looked at it and saw that the title of the thread explicitly labelled it a phonology thread, you figured out that it was only intended to be a phonology test, right? But when you discuss it here, you misrepresent it by calling it a "SAE test" and then criticizing it for being a phonology test! This seems unnecessary to me.
Well, the link wasn't to a thread, it was to a Google Doc titled "SAE Test". I knew the first part was phonology but I expected it to have grammar after that (like in CALS). I found the thread after and was like "oh...".
MrKrov wrote:This is just a soapbox. You know they don't really conlang.
So unless I post everything for you I don't do anything? People showed not very much interest last time I posted something over a language so I haven't bothered since.
Whoa, whoa calm down there! MrKrov was clearly criticizing some members of the ZBB, not you; reread the comment and you will see.
[/quote]

Oh, sorry. That isn't the first time I've misread a comment (see: that other thread where I thought someone was saying that Romanian was more mutually intelligible to English than all other Germanic languages, although I wasn't the only one there at least).
Keenir wrote: can we see the language? if its SAE, we'll tell you.
Didn't you see it on the links? The phonology is also supposed to be European-ish.
You see what's going on here I hope. In one line you say people are not very interested in seeing your language, but then when Keenir actually asks to see it, you are dismissive. Keenir consistently asks to see examples of your language, and you rarely if ever provide them. Maybe people are more interested than you think. Try posting some stuff! People often read and do not comment. Instead of looking at the number of replies, look at the number of thread views.[/quote]

OK, I'll post stuff again then. Maybe everyone was just collectively busy during the time I thought no one was looking at it.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by protondonor » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 03:15

There's one for the mainland Southeast Asian area now, if folks are interested.
Kaimen Keling: Uralic goes Germanic
Kolyma Ainu: Ainu language spoken in mainland Siberia
Wetokwa: a priori, spoken in a Death Valley-like environment, former speedlang
Mañi: a Ngerupic language inspired by Oto-Manguean, Cariban, and Mataco-Guaicuruan
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by Keenir » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 03:35

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
clawgrip wrote: Maybe people are more interested than you think. Try posting some stuff! People often read and do not comment. Instead of looking at the number of replies, look at the number of thread views.
OK, I'll post stuff again then. Maybe everyone was just collectively busy during the time I thought no one was looking at it.
that's certainly been known to happen. everyone here (and at the ZBB) have to deal with RL before anything else.
HoskhMatriarch wrote:
MrKrov wrote:This is just a soapbox. You know they don't really conlang.
So unless I post everything for you I don't do anything?
nobody's asking for everything. we're happy with anything. (next time you have a conlang at any level of development, try using it in the conversation thread, the lexicon thread, or the translations folder - it'll display what you have, and may help add to it)
People showed not very much interest last time I posted something over a language so I haven't bothered since.
every time you post a conlang, there are replies. there aren't pages of replies, for the reason that you don't tend to return to add more to any of them.(which is fine, that's how some of us conlang)
Keenir wrote: can we see the language? if its SAE, we'll tell you.
Didn't you see it on the links?
all the links you provided, were for the tests.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by clawgrip » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 04:38

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
clawgrip wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Someone in a chatroom posted a link though, not from ZBB, so that context wasn't there. They just said "hey there's this SAE test from ZBB" and everyone did it..
But once you got to the thread and looked at it and saw that the title of the thread explicitly labelled it a phonology thread, you figured out that it was only intended to be a phonology test, right? But when you discuss it here, you misrepresent it by calling it a "SAE test" and then criticizing it for being a phonology test! This seems unnecessary to me.
Well, the link wasn't to a thread, it was to a Google Doc titled "SAE Test". I knew the first part was phonology but I expected it to have grammar after that (like in CALS). I found the thread after and was like "oh...".
Ah, well that makes sense then. Got it.
OK, I'll post stuff again then. Maybe everyone was just collectively busy during the time I thought no one was looking at it.
Another thing to keep in mind....when I post stuff about conlangs and get few or no replies, I also think "why is no one replying!" Then I think about how many of other people's conlang threads I myself have not posted replies in, and I realize, I am part of the problem!
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by k1234567890y » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 04:53

Naturalistic conlangs are relex of natural languages, I think, however, even conlangs that are not aimed to look like natural languages, can still resemble something we have known, for example, I feel the syntax of Lojban bears similarity of DOS commands.

You are more or less right in that "Guys, a relex of Inuktitut is just as inventive as a relex of English, that is to say, not at all, and a lang that could fit in SAE can be really cool and original).", hoskh, however, people become less appreciative when they see European conlangs probably because there have been many people doing similar things, while there are less people who do Asian or Native American conlangs, probably because of their knowledge, while there are a lot of people who know French or German, and there are people who know Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Hebrew or Sanskrit, there are not many people who know languages like Nivkh, Maricopa, Rotokas, !kung, Piraha, Atayal, etc.
clawgrip wrote: Another thing to keep in mind....when I post stuff about conlangs and get few or no replies, I also think "why is no one replying!" Then I think about how many of other people's conlang threads I myself have not posted replies in, and I realize, I am part of the problem!
this actually happens outside of conlanging community too...
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by Lao Kou » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 05:34

k1234567890y wrote:Naturalistic conlangs are relex[es] of natural languages,
My understanding of the term "relex" is a little more stringent than that.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by HoskhMatriarch » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 08:26

Lao Kou wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:Naturalistic conlangs are relex[es] of natural languages,
My understanding of the term "relex" is a little more stringent than that.
Yes. Which natlang is Tz'reichs a relex of? I made up a lot of the grammatical constructions, pragmatics, and semantics myself rather than taking them from any natlangs at all, so it can't even be said to be a relex of various natlangs mashed together... But even if you mix natlangs together, the result isn't necessarily a relex of some mix of them, since they'll interact in weird ways and produce new things.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by Iyionaku » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 09:07

clawgrip wrote:
OK, I'll post stuff again then. Maybe everyone was just collectively busy during the time I thought no one was looking at it.
Another thing to keep in mind....when I post stuff about conlangs and get few or no replies, I also think "why is no one replying!" Then I think about how many of other people's conlang threads I myself have not posted replies in, and I realize, I am part of the problem!
Also, I have noted that most of the conlangs that really get a lot of recognition are mostly those that raise the most questions, not the well-done ones.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by Keenir » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 09:08

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:Naturalistic conlangs are relex[es] of natural languages,
My understanding of the term "relex" is a little more stringent than that.
Yes. Which natlang is Tz'reichs a relex of? [/quote
(that's a strange comment, given that - so far as I could tell - Lao Kou was disagreeing that naturalistic is not necessarily a relex of natural.

but, since you mentioned it...link, please?
I made up a lot of the grammatical constructions, pragmatics, and semantics myself rather than taking them from any natlangs at all, so it can't even be said to be a relex of various natlangs mashed together...
a reminder, yes; a relex, it seems not.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by Lao Kou » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 09:32

Keenir wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:Naturalistic conlangs are relex[es] of natural languages,
My understanding of the term "relex" is a little more stringent than that.
Yes. Which natlang is Tz'reichs a relex of?
(so far as I could tell - Lao Kou was disagreeing that naturalistic is necessarily a relex of natural.
Just so, Keenir. Nor did I interpret k1234567890y's thoughts, which I would agree with in general, as pointed at Tz'reichs in particular.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by k1234567890y » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 09:46

seems that I got a strange and controversial thought...I mean, to make a conlang naturalistic, you need to know at least how natural languages look like and you can't really fall out of the range, at least not too far.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by Lao Kou » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 11:12

k1234567890y wrote:seems that I got a strange and controversial thought...I mean, to make a conlang naturalistic, you need to know at least how natural languages look like and you can't really fall out of the range, at least not too far.
I don't think you or your thoughts are being strange or controversial here. I by and large agree with what you're saying. But as you've used "relexed" a few posts up, any romlang or germanolang could be dubbed a relex, which some clearly, to my mind, are not. I would not consider Silvish of the romlang genre a relex, and one of my personal faves, Jameld, while obviously a germanolang, has a timbre all its own. I'm just suggesting that one not be too quick to moniker a project a relex -- a term which is usually used disparagingly.

As for relexes an sich, I find this a little harsh:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Guys, a relex of Inuktitut is just as inventive as a relex of English, that is to say, not at all,
(emphasis mine)
I've probably conflated "inventive" with "creative" here. As I discovered in my just-from visit to the US, coloring books for adults are now a thing. Supposedly, it's therapeutic and "de-stressing" (and bull on ya for that), but I suspect it also fulfills a creative impulse. Is it the same as one's own painting? Well, no. But a well-colored picture may well use an inventive choice of colors, be frameable and framed for presentation and posterity, and meet the creative needs of the person who colored it. So, too, with conlanging. A creative impulse is at play, so why not meet people where they're at? A relex is part of a creative process, if not necessarily "inventive", and could well meet the creative needs of the person who made it. Does that deserve the "Thou art not as linguistically sophisticated as moi." treatment? That is the question.

though I would agree with the mitigating:
and a lang that could fit in SAE can be really cool and original.
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Re: Conlang Areal Tests

Post by Trebor » Thu 15 Mar 2018, 00:40

I wonder, have any more of these tests been created?

I'm also curious as to whether the ones available could be converted into HTML or Notepad or whatnot. GoogleDocs don't appear to be accessible with my screenreader.
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