Quick Diachronics Challenge

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
Post Reply
User avatar
ixals
sinic
sinic
Posts: 446
Joined: 28 Jul 2015 18:43

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ixals »

Image

I divided the languages into East and West according to isogloss #1. Maybe reconstructing each East and West might help. The West is closer to the proto-form concerning the articulation of consonants, but the East preserved the proto-word's "structure" better. Just like the Catalan mirror. [;)] Other thing's I've hinted:

- V² is not /a/
- no stops are involved

@gufferdk: A lot of your guesses for the isoglosses are correct, especially the later ones! I really enjoyed reading your post. [:$] I think you're really close!

@loglorn: Of course it is obvious then. But I tried to reconstruct it as if I didn't knew what changes etc. happened (of course I'm still biased because I still *know* them) and it was still fairly easy to guess although it was a bit iffy concerning a few changes. A lot of people came quite close to the proto-word already. I try my best to give good hints while still keeping it a challenge!
Native: :deu:
Learning: :gbr:, :chn:, :tur:, :fra:

Zhér·dûn a tonal Germanic conlang

old stuff: Цiски | Noattȯč | Tungōnis Vīdīnōs
Davush
greek
greek
Posts: 672
Joined: 10 Jan 2015 14:10

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Davush »

ixals wrote:Image

I divided the languages into East and West according to isogloss #1. Maybe reconstructing each East and West might help. The West is closer to the proto-form concerning the articulation of consonants, but the East preserved the proto-word's "structure" better. Just like the Catalan mirror. [;)] Other thing's I've hinted:

- V² is not /a/
- no stops are involved

@gufferdk: A lot of your guesses for the isoglosses are correct, especially the later ones! I really enjoyed reading your post. [:$] I think you're really close!

@loglorn: Of course it is obvious then. But I tried to reconstruct it as if I didn't knew what changes etc. happened (of course I'm still biased because I still *know* them) and it was still fairly easy to guess although it was a bit iffy concerning a few changes. A lot of people came quite close to the proto-word already. I try my best to give good hints while still keeping it a challenge!
Hmm, C2 is a challenge. If it wasn't a stop then it's fortified in a lot of languages. This makes me think it was a fricative.

Proto-West: *zidʷaɾa
Proto-East: *hiɣɔla

If change 23 was C2 > /d/, then this group retained /d/ the longest (if it was /d/).
/dʷ/ > /w v b d l/ could be possible, but doesn't seem too likely. I can't think of a neater solution though.

Based on this, and assuming /ɣ/ isn't the middle consonant (although you haven't exactly hinted this was wrong), also that V2 isn't /a/ and C2 isn't a stop, I will say *ziðʷǝla. This is my third attempt, so I will leave it at that!
User avatar
gufferdk
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Feb 2017 20:21
Location: Western Jutland

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by gufferdk »

Trying to reconstruct from what you have there, West is very likely *zilaɾa. The reason for *zi has been explored in depth earlier. l seems likely to fortify to d randomly (#23) and l > (ɫ) > w isn't unattested. This also fits well with trying to explain the irregularities with #8,15 with regards to 12. as 8 then was simply l > w if you reconstruct C3 as *l in eastern. Given everything else, i also think that ɾ > n is more likely than the reverse. The vowels are so commonly a that I'll reconstruct those, though wawes might be messing with it. I could totally see proto-western reatining original V2 and then #3,4,5 messing things up across families.

Proto-eastern is harder. #2 affects all of it so the protoform might be something like *hiC2V2la with #1 being ɾ and l either metathesising or swapping phonetic realisation (a few Polynesian langs does that as counterintuitive as it sounds). Such a swap also qualifies a a "mean" sound change like you hinted. I was sorta onto this with my edit for #6 but now it seems clear that #6 is the stress shift I assigned to #1 originally. ɾ > g unconditionally is also literlly the first sound change from /ɾ/ that pops up in the index diachronica. Give the shape of #7 it seems likely that the velars are an innovation. This leaves V2. It isn't /a/, I doubt it's schwa given how commonly it's not dropped, and how no lang a schwa proper. I could see it being /ɔ/ but I like the formation of #3,4,5 not overlapping, so I'll guess /ɤ/ as centralisation to /ɘ/ (very short move) and lovering to /ɔ, a/ (ɤ > ɑ happened in Uralic) seems like likely sound changes.
This gives me final *hiɾɤla for eastern.

Which of the arrangements of the liquids is correct is anybody guess so I'll go with eastern and reconstruct *zilɤɾa.

Looking at the sound changes (I'll try to go through them all later, #16 might actually be voicing of the initial with /z/ in 2 being a later seperate change. While this goes the other way around from what would be expected it would explain how C1 > h is such a quick change and why there is no isogloss seperating z from s,h. This gives the alternate reconstruction *silɤɾa.

EDIT: Forgot about stress. From the shape of #6 I'll guess it was on the second syllable in the protoform.
Last edited by gufferdk on 22 Mar 2017 08:04, edited 2 times in total.
Warning: Anything I post may be ninja-edited up to half an hour after posting.
User avatar
ixals
sinic
sinic
Posts: 446
Joined: 28 Jul 2015 18:43

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ixals »

@gufferdk: Congratulations, you won! The metathesis was the "mean" sound change I was referring too and therefore the proto-form was silɤɾa~siɾɤla indeed! [:D]
Native: :deu:
Learning: :gbr:, :chn:, :tur:, :fra:

Zhér·dûn a tonal Germanic conlang

old stuff: Цiски | Noattȯč | Tungōnis Vīdīnōs
User avatar
gufferdk
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Feb 2017 20:21
Location: Western Jutland

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by gufferdk »

ixals wrote:@gufferdk: Congratulations, you won! The metathesis was the "mean" sound change I was referring too and therefore the proto-form was silɤɾa~siɾɤla indeed! [:D]
Woo. I did not expect to do so well in my first round [:D] . I should really go to bed right now, so if noone minds me posting the next challenge then I'll wait until some time tomorrow with that.
Warning: Anything I post may be ninja-edited up to half an hour after posting.
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

So, I'm gonna go segment by segment for each half. I am still not convinced that we need full CVCVCV for the proto-word.

West: *zilɘra ~ ʑlɘra ~ zilra ~ zilɘr
C1:All frincatives, except j, which may be epenthetic after all. Palatalization might come from following i. Word initial devoicing is more common than word initial voicing, so the proto-C1 should be voiced. This yields: *z
V1: Most of them i, so I guess *i. Another possibility would be a palatalized C1 and no V2 at all.
C2: Three groups, laterals, labials and d. All of them could develop from *l, via w and syllable initial fortition, if we assume unconditional l → ɫ.
V2: If it's not *a, it has to be *ɘ. Don't see why there should be such bizarre lowering, but hey, there's been worse in my challenge. Could very well be epenthetic than.
C3: What links ʀ and n? Obviously only *r, which has the trillness of the former and the POA of the latter. Also *r → n and r → ʀ are defintely attested.
V3: This can be *a or epenthetic. Nothing else.

East: *hiʀʷɤlʲa
C1: Is very obviously h, which in some language got elided. I think I will have to assume it was **s at some point, to link it to the Western languages.
V1: All front vowels, mostly high and/or unrounded, so I guess it's *i. But I have to mind the rounding, where did it come from? The following consonant?
C2: Ranges from stop over nasal to trill and from alveolar to velar. This is also an environment where we would expect both lenition (because intervocalic) and fortition (because syllable onset). I am gonna go with ʀʷ, the exact opposite argumentation.
V2: We got high, mid and low vowels. Diphthongs and Monophthongs. Front, central, and back vowels. This is really tough. If the previous consonant is the trigger of rounding, we could assume a back unrounded vowel here. The following consonant could act as a trigger of raising and fronting to i. So, *ɤ.
C3: This seems to be l again, but palatalized lʲ.
V3: Looks like it is *a again.

All: *zirʷɘrʲa
C1: As I said, I have to assume that there is some stage where the east languages had **s, which means proto-C1 is *z.
V1: Is clearly *i.
C2: Is pretty tough. It could have been rʷ, which backened in the east and became a lateral in the west. Again there must have been some kind of intermediate stage, because rounding did not survive in the east.
V2: Is definitely unrounded, not high and not front. So either *ɤ or *ɘ or something in between.
C3: Really unsure abouth this one. Maybe rʲ?
V3: Is *a.

I feel like I am pretty off the track again. Sorry about that.

*zirʷɘrʲa

Edit: Damn I am late [:D]
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

ixals wrote:@gufferdk: Congratulations, you won! The metathesis was the "mean" sound change I was referring too and therefore the proto-form was silɤɾa~siɾɤla indeed! [:D]
Where did the word initial z's come from?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
loglorn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1728
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 03:22

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn »

Creyeditor wrote:
ixals wrote:@gufferdk: Congratulations, you won! The metathesis was the "mean" sound change I was referring too and therefore the proto-form was silɤɾa~siɾɤla indeed! [:D]
Where did the word initial z's come from?
s/z/_ maybe only word initially. but /s/ is indeed the best reconstruction between /z/ and /h/
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

Damn, it's kind of what German does/did [:D] Again
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

Creyeditor wrote:Damn, it's kind of what German does/did [:D] Again
[+1]
I'm just amazed at that virtually unreconstructible V2 being /ɤ/
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
gufferdk
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Feb 2017 20:21
Location: Western Jutland

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by gufferdk »

I have no idea whether this is too hard, too easy or reasonably reasonable in difficulcy. I'll post more hints if necessary:

Big picture:
Spoiler:
Image
Small version:
Spoiler:
Image
Edit: Updated the maps due to missing nasalisation on 4 forms
Hints:
There are four subfamilies (edit: deleted the word "main", there are only 4 families).
The changes primarily follow the tree model though there are a few areal changes. Areal changes never leave the upper-level subfamily they are in.
There is one consonant from the original word that has been changed in all languages, though in different ways. I think it should still be guessable based on the variety of reflexes.
Last edited by gufferdk on 22 Mar 2017 16:56, edited 2 times in total.
Warning: Anything I post may be ninja-edited up to half an hour after posting.
User avatar
ixals
sinic
sinic
Posts: 446
Joined: 28 Jul 2015 18:43

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ixals »

Here is everything that happened for everyone who's interested:
Spoiler:
The original form of the word was actually /siˈɾɤ.la/, but as it’s quite hard to guess this form because more than 50% metathesised the second and the third consonant, the reconstructed form /siˈlɤ.ɾa/ is considered to be right as well. Although the stress on either the first or second syllable are equally reasonable guesses.

Isoglosses
1. metathesis: /siˈɾɤ.la/ > /siˈlɤ.ɾa/ in the west
2. debuccalisation: initial /s/ > /h/ in the east; this affected every language that didn’t metathesise the other consonants plus language #23, therefore resulting in /hiˈlɤ.ɾa/
3. unrounding and lowering: /ɤ/ > /o/ > /ɔ/ in the east
4. fronting and lowering: /ɤ/ > /ʌ/ > /ɐ/ > /a/ in the south; this change was inspired by the historical and ongoing evolution of English’s short U
5. centralising: /ɤ/ > /ɘ/ in the north
6. stress shift: the main stress shifts from the second vowel to the first vowel in the west
7. ???: /ɾ/ > /g/ in the east; this was one of the first changes from /ɾ/ in the Index Diachronica but I guess it happened through intermediates like /ʀ/ > /ʁ/ > /ɣ/
8. velarisation/vocalisation (?): /l/ > /ɫ/ > /w/ in the southwest; due to the earlier metathesis we have forms like #8 /siˈwa.ɾa/ and #13 /hiˈɾa.wa/; this change was inspired by Polish
9. apocope: /a/ > /Ø/ in the north
10. raising and fronting: /a/ > /ɨ/ > /i/ in the south; this happens only when the vowel is stressed though but this change can also explained by umlaut of the /i/ in the previous syllable
11. lenition: /g/ > /ŋ/ in the northeast
12. raising of unstressed vowels: /a/ > /ɨ/ > /i/ in the east; this is just like the tenth isogloss and therefore creates big differences in vowels, e.g. #15 /hiˈgi.la/ and #16 /hiˈga.li/
13. palatalisation and syncope: /si/ > /ɕi/ > /ɕ/ in #9, #10 and #25
14. deletion: /ɾ/ > /Ø/ in the west; the resulting following vowels simplified further in different ways, e.g. tone in #8, /iˈa/ > /ˈja/ in #11 and /iˈi/ > /iː/ in #13
15. spirantisation: /w/ > /v/ within the fifteenth isogloss; /v/ further assimilated in #10 giving /ˈɕfa.a/
16. voicing: initial /s/ > /z/ in the west; this change was inspired by German and closely related languages
17. elision: /h/ > /Ø/ in the south
18. syncope of medial vowels: /ɔ/ > /ʊ/ > /Ø/ within the eighteenth isogloss; the final rhotic in #24 turned into the nucleus of the second syllable
19. apocope and palatalisation: /li/ > /ʎ/ in the east
20. lowering: /i/ > /e/ in the north; this explains final /e/ in #19 because it stems from the /i/ of the twelfth change
21. diphthongisation: /ɔ/ > /wɛ/ in the north; this change was inspired by Spanish
22. ???: final /ɾ/ > /n/ in the north
23. ???: /l/ > /d/ in the west
24. syncope: /ɘ/ > /Ø/ in the north
25. vowel harmony: unstressed vowels either rounded due to the rounded stressed vowel in #17 and #18 or they fronted due to the front stressed vowel in #15
26. uvularisation: /ɾ/ > /ʀ/ in the west; it changed a little bit more in #1; this was inspired by Western Europe
27. vowel reduction: unstressed /a/ > /ɐ/ (and unstressed /i/ > /ɪ/ in #12) within the twenty-seventh isogloss

Individual later changes:
#1 /ˈzi.dʁa/ > /ˈji.dʁa/
#7 /ˈsi.wa.ɾa/ > /ˈsi.ba.ɾa/
#14 /iˈɾi.la/ > /iˈr̝i.la/; this was inspired by Czech
#15 /iˈgi.læ/ > /iˈki.læ/
#19 /heˈŋɔ.le/ > /heˈɔ̃.le/
#21 /heˈŋwɛ.la/ > /he.ŋwɛˈla/
#23 /ˈhil.ɾa/ > /ˈhil.dɾa/; this makes the /dɾ/ completely unrelated to #1’s /dʁ/
Creyeditor wrote:Damn, it's kind of what German does/did [:D] Again
Why would I not pick a change that happened in my native tongue? [:P]
qwed117 wrote:I'm just amazed at that virtually unreconstructible V2 being /ɤ/
Hahaha, I'm sorry for that! [:D]
Edit: I just saw your new post, gufferdk. I'll try the challenge later when I've got enough time!
Native: :deu:
Learning: :gbr:, :chn:, :tur:, :fra:

Zhér·dûn a tonal Germanic conlang

old stuff: Цiски | Noattȯč | Tungōnis Vīdīnōs
User avatar
loglorn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1728
Joined: 17 Mar 2014 03:22

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn »

Wave 7 is fortition, though not your garden variety fortition. Something like uvularization + fortition.

22 and 23 are also fortition, of a tamer sort. 22 is actually quite common a change both ways.

I will have a go at gufferdk's shortly, but i just wanted to say that above beforehand.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
User avatar
gufferdk
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Feb 2017 20:21
Location: Western Jutland

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by gufferdk »

I made a notable screwup while making the map. The second vowel in nysˤøː, nysˤø͡ə, nysˤøw and nysˤew should be nasalised so nysˤø̃ː, nysˤø̃͡ə̃, nysˤø̃w and nysˤẽw are correct. I updated the map in the original post.
Warning: Anything I post may be ninja-edited up to half an hour after posting.
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

So, my guess, before doing the work and before looking at the hints is: *kni.tʃor
Edit: An here's my second guess, based on a more close look: *gnyts'ode
Here are the groupings that I assume (without arreal effects)
Spoiler:
Image
Here are the Proto-Words:
Spoiler:
Proto-Cyan: *gytʃod
Proto-Light-Green: *gyssog
Proto-Black: *gysso

>Proto-Zanzibar: **gytsog

Proto-Red: ŋiwdʒø
Proto-White: ŋøjsozø
Proto-Pink: nysʕønda
Proto-Purple: niħede

>Proto-Rose: **niwdʒʕøde

Proto-Yellow: gỹhuli
Proto-Dark-Green: gnycor
Proto-Brown: gints'or
Proto-Blue: gnɨt'or

>Proto-South: **gnyts'or

>>Proto-World: ***gnyts'ode
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
ixals
sinic
sinic
Posts: 446
Joined: 28 Jul 2015 18:43

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ixals »

I reconstructed *gn̩ʲcʼoðə which is really similar to Creyeditor's guess but looking at his answer, I think I'll change my guess to *gnycʼodə. The south-western islands were a big problem for me as well as the last consonant in the north. The south (and the east) was my favourite area to reconstruct tbh!
Native: :deu:
Learning: :gbr:, :chn:, :tur:, :fra:

Zhér·dûn a tonal Germanic conlang

old stuff: Цiски | Noattȯč | Tungōnis Vīdīnōs
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

Hmm. I think *gnʉc'ɔde could work... It's basically the same as what Creyeditor and Ixals wrote
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

Interesting. I found this challenge pretty tough, but we all arrived at similar results.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
gufferdk
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Feb 2017 20:21
Location: Western Jutland

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by gufferdk »

You are all very close but none of you got it exactly right. Creyeditor was the closest, they was only off on one consonant, the consonant that I hinted wasn't reflexed in its protoform anywhere. Since none of you got that consonant right I think going on would just be a case of random guessing and you were close anyway so I'll just reveal the protoform, which was gnys'ode.

Your grouping was off though. Black, light green and cyan are related but your grouping of languages into them is wrong becuase areal changes are obscuring things. Same story with pink and purple as well as white and red. White/red together belong somewhere else than pink/purple. Dark green, brown and blue are correct but shouldn't go together with yellow. If anyone is interested I'll post all the sound changes.
Warning: Anything I post may be ninja-edited up to half an hour after posting.
Davush
greek
greek
Posts: 672
Joined: 10 Jan 2015 14:10

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Davush »

gufferdk wrote:You are all very close but none of you got it exactly right. Creyeditor was the closest, they was only off on one consonant, the consonant that I hinted wasn't reflexed in its protoform anywhere. Since none of you got that consonant right I think going on would just be a case of random guessing and you were close anyway so I'll just reveal the protoform, which was gnys'ode.

Your grouping was off though. Black, light green and cyan are related but your grouping of languages into them is wrong becuase areal changes are obscuring things. Same story with pink and purple as well as white and red. White/red together belong somewhere else than pink/purple. Dark green, brown and blue are correct but shouldn't go together with yellow. If anyone is interested I'll post all the sound changes.
I got half way through this, so I carried on as if the answer hadn't been revealed. My guess was *ᵑɡiwsħode, with /e/ or /i/ for the final vowel, which fasn't *too* far off, I suppose.
I thought /ᵑɡ/ could give rise to most of the initial reflexes, but /gn/ makes sense too. I chose /sħ/ because I could see this fortifying or becoming /sʕ/ or similar, and then moving to /sˤ/.

I used your hint at four language families which I divided as:

Image
Post Reply