Quick Diachronics Challenge
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Of course; apologies.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Spoiler:
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
- Creyeditor
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
So, three people answered, I'll give some hints, remarks and the current ranking.
Adarain did not add anything, so his score is still 12
GamerGeek: + 3 bonus points => 3/9 + 4 = 7
qwed117: 1 Bonus point = 1
Adarain did not add anything, so his score is still 12
GamerGeek: + 3 bonus points => 3/9 + 4 = 7
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I figure I'm stealing someone's thunder here.
Since both vogo and vuɣo have a single mistake, and vugo is ruled out, that means voɣo is the correct answer.
Next: Attempting to fix some of sangi's diachronics,
For black, maybe Lower Mouth, Lower River, should be included, especially Lower River, due to the similarities in cognates 8 9. I suspect that u>a in limited circumstances, and this was either lost, or became o again.
Since both vogo and vuɣo have a single mistake, and vugo is ruled out, that means voɣo is the correct answer.
Next: Attempting to fix some of sangi's diachronics,
For black, maybe Lower Mouth, Lower River, should be included, especially Lower River, due to the similarities in cognates 8 9. I suspect that u>a in limited circumstances, and this was either lost, or became o again.
Spoiler:
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Sorry to jump in so early, but it seems that I changed my mind about which vowels are reconstructable along the way. The consonant is still the problem. The first vowel is very difficult to reconstruct. No one has yet gotten it right and this might be a systematic error actually.qwed117 wrote:Since both vogo and vuɣo have a single mistake, and vugo is ruled out, that means voɣo is the correct answer.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Oh my god, I'm stupid! One branch experienced a Grimm's law, but the others experienced Verner's law.Creyeditor wrote:Sorry to jump in so early, but it seems that I changed my mind about which vowels are reconstructable along the way. The consonant is still the problem. The first vowel is very difficult to reconstruct. No one has yet gotten it right and this might be a systematic error actually.qwed117 wrote:Since both vogo and vuɣo have a single mistake, and vugo is ruled out, that means voɣo is the correct answer.
Is it vuko?
This would make Lower Mouth and Lower River completely unreconcilable with the black grouping (sangi's grouping), meaning that my theorization there is over. TBH the first vowel is completely unreconstructable as anything other than *u without looking at deep diachronic analysis
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Spoiler:
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
qwed117 + 1
sangi39: +10
So all Proto-Words have been guessed. The earliest point I will find time to post the solution is probably more than 7 days from now, so feel free to guess some more details.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Going by the forms given, *vuko really is about as close as we can get. Since every dialect has /u/ as the first vowel, the sample size leaves no reason to assume any other vowel as the proto-form.
I'm going to keep working on the sound change map if there's some more time going
EDIT: I think I've worked out a rough timescale for the various sound changes that's a bit more in-depth than my earlier ones, but honestly a couple still have me stumped, but that could just be me looking at the geography a bit wrong.
I'm going to keep working on the sound change map if there's some more time going
EDIT: I think I've worked out a rough timescale for the various sound changes that's a bit more in-depth than my earlier ones, but honestly a couple still have me stumped, but that could just be me looking at the geography a bit wrong.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Just having a goat something:
This makes the geographic distribution of groupings a lot more apparent, with many changes involving what seems to be a series of divisions along coasts and/or rivers.
The first division of the dialects seems to be between the pink group and everything else, with the pink group showing intervocalic voicing of intervocalic plosives.
From what I can gather, the next change involved the loss of word-initial vowels (the green group) which would pave the way for another division amongst the western, non-pink group.
A change occurred in the west, spreading up the coast and partially into the green group in which intervocalic voiceless plosives became voiceless fricatives, and as part of a similar shift, proto-form *h was deleted.
In the pink group, two further divisions occurred: a) the voicing of intervocalic voiceless fricatives (forming the yellow group, which also shows the loss of intervocalic *h seen in the green group, marked here as a light grey extension of the grey group) and which was followed by the loss of final vowels (forming the red group).
Along the western coast, dialects forming the black group merged non-high vowels into /a/ (although I wonder if this might have occurred before the loss of intervocalic *h in those areas).
Palatalisation of *k before *i appears to be a shared feature of the neighbouring Short River and Upper River dialects, but without any other changes present it's difficult to tell when this change might have occurred.
The blue group is still noted on the map above, but this actually doesn't appear to be a valid grouping if you assume that, within the Dry and Mid River dialects, the grey shift took hold after the green shift.
The loss of initial consonants forming the purple group seems to be a shift that spread through the interior of the main island.
East of the yellow group seems to be where the raising of some instances of *a took place, but I can't actually work out the timing or the condition, only that that's the border.
This makes the geographic distribution of groupings a lot more apparent, with many changes involving what seems to be a series of divisions along coasts and/or rivers.
The first division of the dialects seems to be between the pink group and everything else, with the pink group showing intervocalic voicing of intervocalic plosives.
From what I can gather, the next change involved the loss of word-initial vowels (the green group) which would pave the way for another division amongst the western, non-pink group.
A change occurred in the west, spreading up the coast and partially into the green group in which intervocalic voiceless plosives became voiceless fricatives, and as part of a similar shift, proto-form *h was deleted.
In the pink group, two further divisions occurred: a) the voicing of intervocalic voiceless fricatives (forming the yellow group, which also shows the loss of intervocalic *h seen in the green group, marked here as a light grey extension of the grey group) and which was followed by the loss of final vowels (forming the red group).
Along the western coast, dialects forming the black group merged non-high vowels into /a/ (although I wonder if this might have occurred before the loss of intervocalic *h in those areas).
Palatalisation of *k before *i appears to be a shared feature of the neighbouring Short River and Upper River dialects, but without any other changes present it's difficult to tell when this change might have occurred.
The blue group is still noted on the map above, but this actually doesn't appear to be a valid grouping if you assume that, within the Dry and Mid River dialects, the grey shift took hold after the green shift.
The loss of initial consonants forming the purple group seems to be a shift that spread through the interior of the main island.
East of the yellow group seems to be where the raising of some instances of *a took place, but I can't actually work out the timing or the condition, only that that's the border.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Truesangi39 wrote:The first division of the dialects seems to be between the pink group and everything else, with the pink group showing intervocalic voicing of intervocalic plosives.
It is the next change, fromt the ones you gathered, though it's not actually the next one that happened ( ).sangi39 wrote: From what I can gather, the next change involved the loss of word-initial vowels (the green group) which would pave the way for another division amongst the western, non-pink group.
This is an areal affect. Correctsangi39 wrote:A change occurred in the west, spreading up the coast and partially into the green group in which intervocalic voiceless plosives became voiceless fricatives,
This change actually happended earlier.sangi39 wrote: and as part of a similar shift, proto-form *h was deleted.
It is true that this change only occured in the pink languages.sangi39 wrote:In the pink group, two further divisions occurred: a) the voicing of intervocalic voiceless fricatives (forming the yellow group
Again, this change actually happended earlier. But all the languages you mentioned have indeed undergone this change.sangi39 wrote:, which also shows the loss of intervocalic *h seen in the green group, marked here as a light grey extension of the grey group)
(True) though there might be an intervening change.sangi39 wrote:and which was followed by the loss of final vowels (forming the red group).
Truesangi39 wrote:Along the western coast, dialects forming the black group merged non-high vowels into /a/
Not true.sangi39 wrote:(although I wonder if this might have occurred before the loss of intervocalic *h in those areas).
Truesangi39 wrote:Palatalisation of *k before *i appears to be a shared feature of the neighbouring Short River and Upper River dialects, but without any other changes present it's difficult to tell when this change might have occurred.
These languages are very similar, but they are not a groupsangi39 wrote:The blue group is still noted on the map above, but this actually doesn't appear to be a valid grouping if you assume that, within the Dry and Mid River dialects, the grey shift took hold after the green shift.
Truesangi39 wrote:The loss of initial consonants forming the purple group seems to be a shift that spread through the interior of the main island.
If you mean raising of mid vowels you are correct.sangi39 wrote:East of the yellow group seems to be where the raising of some instances of *a took place, but I can't actually work out the timing or the condition, only that that's the border.
I think this is as close as you can come. I will reveal part one of the results now.
The proto words were:
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Could you have meant "Just having a go at something"?sangi39 wrote:Just having a goat something:
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
OMG. I thought it's a pun on 'a good something'eldin raigmore wrote:Could you have meant "Just having a go at something"?sangi39 wrote:Just having a goat something:
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Count me in.loglorn wrote:A might be able to posit a challenge a few days from now. I gather there would be interest?
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Wouldn't it depend on whether whoever Creyeditor declares the winner of the previous challenge gives up their turn or not?
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
- Creyeditor
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- Posts: 5091
- Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Indeed and you are the winner, Sangi.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Ohhh, well okay then, yeah, I'd be happy to pass it on to Loglorn I like creating challenges every now and then but I much prefer playing on the research side of the game.
(I wasn't sure if Adarain was going to be declared the winner since they had the most point initially)
(I wasn't sure if Adarain was going to be declared the winner since they had the most point initially)
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
- Creyeditor
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- Posts: 5091
- Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
So I tried really hard, but I have to admit that a graphic representation of the population history is to time consuming for me to accomplish. I'll just give you a tabular representationGoogle sheet that I also used in creating the challenge. The different tables are ordered points in time and the cells are places on the island. The top row specifies which changes took place at that period. The letters again refer to the changes in the post above. You can infer genetic and areal grouping from the population history.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I'm alive!
I haven't been playing much, or online much, with school and work keeping me busy, but even though I knew it was over, I I tried my own hand at solving your challenge, Crey. I was able to ce back with:
And there we have it, this one was perdy good!
Edit: With all the u > a transitions, I thought more in the lines of
u → ɯ → a
u → o → a
o → a works just fine, as I now see.
I haven't been playing much, or online much, with school and work keeping me busy, but even though I knew it was over, I I tried my own hand at solving your challenge, Crey. I was able to ce back with:
Spoiler:
And there we have it, this one was perdy good!
Edit: With all the u > a transitions, I thought more in the lines of
u → ɯ → a
u → o → a
o → a works just fine, as I now see.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.