Quick Diachronics Challenge
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- greek
- Posts: 595
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Done, with some last minute changes. Good luck! This is my first try at something like this.
A signature.
- Creyeditor
- MVP
- Posts: 5121
- Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Some preliminary thougts on grouping:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Edit: I put everything in spoilers.
Last edited by Creyeditor on 15 Sep 2017 20:39, edited 1 time in total.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
YAY! New challenge!
*tepʰmegoq?
Either that or *depmegoq. This form does requite slightly fewer assumptions if Proto-North-Eastern is a valid group since it would be possible to explain a proto-form as *depmegoq > *tepʰmegoq > *tsepʰmegoq and then work from there, while Proto-South-Western just requires a shift from *d > *ɾ
Spoiler:
Either that or *depmegoq. This form does requite slightly fewer assumptions if Proto-North-Eastern is a valid group since it would be possible to explain a proto-form as *depmegoq > *tepʰmegoq > *tsepʰmegoq and then work from there, while Proto-South-Western just requires a shift from *d > *ɾ
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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- greek
- Posts: 595
- Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
- Location: Australia
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Crey, your A group is spot on, for the B group however it is a bit off, I feel you have jumped the gun a bit by making those supergroups (A and B) already. The internal groupings for B2 make sense but they are not perfect.
Your first guess at the proto word is missing some phonetic components (namely to do with voicing).
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Sangi, Your red and black circles are right on the mark and some of the points you made on the diacronics are pointing you in the right way but I won't elaborate just yet. (Some of your proposed sound changes with no environment are working backwards)
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I've got 2-3 clues, with the last being the phonology, if you want the phonology I could post it now.
Your first guess at the proto word is missing some phonetic components (namely to do with voicing).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sangi, Your red and black circles are right on the mark and some of the points you made on the diacronics are pointing you in the right way but I won't elaborate just yet. (Some of your proposed sound changes with no environment are working backwards)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've got 2-3 clues, with the last being the phonology, if you want the phonology I could post it now.
- Creyeditor
- MVP
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- Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
As for me, I don't think I need a clue yet. I think I'll wait some days till I post my third guess.
Spoiler:
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Spoiler:
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Hmm, I think maybe something along the lines of *tépmɛgʷeq. I'm of the opinion that the voicing is the primary cause of the falling/low tone in sangi's Southern group. (é is stressed)
Edit: Looked at Index Diachronica for some guidance; I'm changing my guess to *tépmagʷaq
Edit: Double Edit: *tépmegʷaq, I think there was some sort of backwards vowel harmony
Spoiler:
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- greek
- Posts: 595
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- Location: Australia
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Clue 1 of 4:
Clue 2 of 4:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Well without any other information regarding out previous guesses, the best I can come up with given then new data is *ðe̤pn̩goɢ, the assumption being that the original vowel carried some sort of "breathy" phonation (which then might explain aspiration and breathy voice in the Southern and Northern groups).
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
- Creyeditor
- MVP
- Posts: 5121
- Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I think I'll improve my guess to *etepʰbɘ̃kuɢ. This is my last guess, I think.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Yeah, I'm struggling to improve on my guesses. I think this might be similar to the last couple of challenges where we'll all have similar answers to begin with and then niggle over small details for a while until someone gets ever so slightly closer than someone elseCreyeditor wrote:This is my last guess, I think.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Hmm, these clues don't do much to help me reformulate my word, but maybe I'm misinterpreting some sound changes. What if w and v in the lower left didn't arise from the *r and thus an intervocalic *t, but rather it was an initial to begin with? That'd give us something along the lines of *wetipmegʷaq
Spoiler:
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- greek
- Posts: 595
- Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
- Location: Australia
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Sangi is the closest.
Qued's latest guess has gotten better.
I'm inclined to give it to Sangi, but I did say I had a phonology.
Vowels:
/i, iː/
/e, eː, o, oː/
/a, aː/
Consonants:
/p, t k/
/b, d, g/
/p', t', k'/
/m, n/
/w, l, r/
/s, z, h/
Syllables:
(C(C))X(C)
X is a vowel or a syllabic /n̩/ or /l̩/
Qued's latest guess has gotten better.
I'm inclined to give it to Sangi, but I did say I had a phonology.
Vowels:
/i, iː/
/e, eː, o, oː/
/a, aː/
Consonants:
/p, t k/
/b, d, g/
/p', t', k'/
/m, n/
/w, l, r/
/s, z, h/
Syllables:
(C(C))X(C)
X is a vowel or a syllabic /n̩/ or /l̩/
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
My last guess would be *otehpn̩gok'
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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- greek
- Posts: 595
- Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
- Location: Australia
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Close, it was /wreːhbn̩gokʼ/.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
With the most recent hint I probably would have guessed *wetipn̩gak', which isn't much closer than sangi's
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
The one thing I'd be interested in seeing is how *wr become *s and *d (everything else more or less makes sense, I think, although I'm surprised to see a final *k' become *g so readily in multiple branches).
Oh, and just for clarification, who's being declared the winner?
Oh, and just for clarification, who's being declared the winner?
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
-
- greek
- Posts: 595
- Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
- Location: Australia
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
The proto form was /reʍbn̩gokʼ/ which then became your proto "northern" /sehpmigoq'/ (the [r] became voiceless and then s).sangi39 wrote:The one thing I'd be interested in seeing is how *wr become *s and *d (everything else more or less makes sense, I think, although I'm surprised to see a final *k' become *g so readily in multiple branches).
Oh, and just for clarification, who's being declared the winner?
And then proto "polar"'s was /deʍbn̩gokʼ/
k' became g only twice, are you confusing yourself with the second last consonant g?
Yes, I am giving this to Sangi.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Ohhh, well that makes sense, and no, I was thinking of the final *g, but I'd assumed the final low tone in some of the Southern languages was down to a final voiced consonant that dropped out so I thought the final *g ~ *k alternation was much more common than it was.jimydog000 wrote:The proto form was /reʍbn̩gokʼ/ which then became your proto "northern" /sehpmigoq'/ (the [r] became voiceless and then s).sangi39 wrote:The one thing I'd be interested in seeing is how *wr become *s and *d (everything else more or less makes sense, I think, although I'm surprised to see a final *k' become *g so readily in multiple branches).
Oh, and just for clarification, who's being declared the winner?
And then proto "polar"'s was /deʍbn̩gokʼ/
k' became g only twice, are you confusing yourself with the second last consonant g?
Yes, I am giving this to Sangi.
I can actually post a challenge fairly soon. I've had one saved on my laptop since the last one I came up with
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
All right then, another challenge requiring the reconstruction of two proto-words, but they should each aid in the reconstruction of te other (or at least that's the hope).
As per usual in this game, I'll be looking both at groupings and accuracy of reconstruction, although I don't have any "hints" prepared as in recent challenges. I'll likely just go over guesses bit by bit as and when they come
Good luck
EDIT: Just in case it comes up, the /'t'/ in the southernmost language is a stress marker (') followed by an ejective (/t'/)
As per usual in this game, I'll be looking both at groupings and accuracy of reconstruction, although I don't have any "hints" prepared as in recent challenges. I'll likely just go over guesses bit by bit as and when they come
Good luck
EDIT: Just in case it comes up, the /'t'/ in the southernmost language is a stress marker (') followed by an ejective (/t'/)
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.