Quick Diachronics Challenge

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qwed117
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

Davush wrote:I'll put the answer in a spoiler now because I probably won't have access to the internet tomorrow. I'll explain the sound changes and groupings when I can, but feel free to start the next challenge!

Answer:
Spoiler:
Proto-word: *qappʷai

The closest answers were *k'appɨ by Creyeditor and *kaˁbbweˁ by Opipik. It's a close call because Creyeditor got the voicing of the consonants right, but Opipik got the labialisation, and the final vowel is closer to the earliest branches.

I thought /q/ might have been easier assuming that some Arabic-type changes took place. Most people got that /pp/ had some sort of labialisation or velarisation going on. Qwed's *kaubˤi, although plausible, was probably the least close. I admit the final /ai/ couldn't be reconstructed for certain as it was monophthongised very early.
It's not just the monophthongization. It's the fact that the changes are cyclical. No point is better in reconstruction than another.

Also, major rip.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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cedh
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by cedh »

Davush wrote:I'll put the answer in a spoiler now because I probably won't have access to the internet tomorrow. I'll explain the sound changes and groupings when I can, but feel free to start the next challenge!

Answer:
Spoiler:
Proto-word: *qappʷai

The closest answers were *k'appɨ by Creyeditor and *kaˁbbweˁ by Opipik. It's a close call because Creyeditor got the voicing of the consonants right, but Opipik got the labialisation, and the final vowel is closer to the earliest branches.

I thought /q/ might have been easier assuming that some Arabic-type changes took place. Most people got that /pp/ had some sort of labialisation or velarisation going on. Qwed's *kaubˤi, although plausible, was probably the least close. I admit the final /ai/ couldn't be reconstructed for certain as it was monophthongised very early.
After reading your hints I'd have guessed *qapp(’)oj, but I didn't have the time to work it out in detail. Alas...

(I have a new challenge lying around for some time already, so I could post that if nobody objects...)
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

I have no objections.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by opipik »

Creyeditor wrote:I have no objections.
Me neither.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

opipik wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:I have no objections.
Me neither.
[+1]
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by cedh »

Okay. Here it is:

Image

Lots of languages, but I think it shouldn't be as difficult as it looks. Hint: Start with finding small (sub-)subfamilies.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Davush »

qwed117 wrote: It's not just the monophthongization. It's the fact that the changes are cyclical. No point is better in reconstruction than another.

Also, major rip.
Of course all reconstructions were very plausible. By closest I meant closest to the proto-word I had in mind (which seems to be how 'winners' were determined in previous rounds).

I'm not sure what you mean by 'major rip'.

Most people got the groupings very close to what I had imagined:

Hornian: *qæp'æi. The Western branch lost /q/, the Yemeni branch turned it into /k/.
Omani: *ɢɑppwɑi. This was the isolated branch that split early. /pp/ eventually led to glottalisation, and /ɑi/ > /ɑ/.

Middle-Arabian, North-Arabian/Egyptian derive from a branch which split as it moved north. It went: *qappʷai > *ɢɑbbɛ: > *ɢɑbbe (Proto-Mid-Arabian), *go:bi (Proto-North-Arabian/Egyptian).

Emirati: From *ɑɢɑbbwǝ.

The presence of /ɢ/ in South Arabia was meant to be an areal feature, so only /ɑɢɑmbɨ ɑɢɨbbɨ/ belonged to the Emirati branch. Middle Arabian had /gɑ:pɛ gˤǝbˤɛ ɢɔ:bb ɢɑɔp/. /gʷʊbbɪ gǝbbˤɪj/ were meant to be transition dialects which have been influence a lot by the surrounding Arabic dialects. I had them derived from Proto-North-Arabian *go:bi, but they could easily belong to the Southern branch too.

I will hopefully be able to try the new challenge later!
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by gufferdk »

I don't have time to do a stab at the protoform right now but here is my initial stab at the subfamilies that I'm still not really satisfied with. There are a couple of langs that could fit with several subfamilies or doesn't fit well with any of them.
Spoiler:
Image
Warning: Anything I post may be ninja-edited up to half an hour after posting.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

Davush wrote:
qwed117 wrote: It's not just the monophthongization. It's the fact that the changes are cyclical. No point is better in reconstruction than another.

Also, major rip.
Of course all reconstructions were very plausible. By closest I meant closest to the proto-word I had in mind (which seems to be how 'winners' were determined in previous rounds).

I'm not sure what you mean by 'major rip'.
I'm just referring to the last vowel. When the last vowel starts moving in a cycle, it's becomes impossible to determine the original vowels without a clue. It's like trying to tell me where the beginning of a circle is; there isn't any.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

So, I got a grouping, a subgrouping (on the map) and a guess on the proto-word, based on intermediate stages.
Spoiler:
Image
Proto-World: ***ⁿgʷalakʷi

Proto-Trans-North-East: **malakʷi
-Proto-Black (north-west): *malagi
-Proto-White (upper-west): *munakʷi
-Proto-Red (central-north): *mølki
-Proto-Darkblue (north-east): *makwi
-Proto-Purple (south-East): *malekʷ
-Proto-Brown (east): *morkʷu
-Proto-Cyan (south-east): *walok
-Isolated (north-east): muhai

Proto-Trans-South-West: **gʷrakʷi
-Proto-Grey (lower-west): *gʷakʷi
-Proto-Orange (south-west): *blaki
-Proto-Yellow (central-east): *brɔki
-Proto-LightGreen (south-west): *wlakʷi
-Proto-Pink (central-south): *bˤatʃi
-Proto-DarkGreen (south): *kʷaki
-Isolated (south-east): begwi
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

I'm tempted to say something like /malakʷi/.

The initial /b/ in the western languages could be explained as denasalisation, while the languages that have an initial /g/ tend not to have the medial /l/, suggesting something like /mVl/ > /bVr/ > /bʁ/ > /gʁ/ > /gɣ/ > /g/. /gb/ could possibly come from /gʁ/ > /gɰ/ > /gw/ > /gʷ/ > /gb/
Spoiler:
Image
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by cedh »

Creyeditor has done a good job for many of the groups:

-Proto-Black (north-west): *malagi [tick] (but four additional languages should be grouped here, and the internal structure of the group is missing. However, sangi39 has correctly identified two subbranches)
-Proto-White (upper-west): *munakʷi [tick] (the protoword here is actually *mnakʷi, but I'll count this as correct)
-Proto-Red (central-north): *mølki [tick] (but two languages are erroneously grouped here)
-Proto-Cyan (south-east): *walok [tick] (actually *wãlok)
-Proto-Grey (lower-west): *gʷakʷi [tick]
-Proto-Orange (south-west): *blaki [->] (almost correct, but two languages are missing and might give additional clues)
-Proto-Yellow (central-east): *brɔki [->] (these languages are indeed closely related, but the group is paraphyletic)
-Proto-LightGreen (south-west): *wlakʷi [->] (one language is erroneously grouped here, and removing it would improve the protoword. Again, sangi39 has correctly identified two subgroups.)
-Proto-Pink (central-south): *bˤatʃi [tick]
-Proto-DarkGreen (south): *kʷaki [tick] (actually *pʁaki, but that's not reconstructible from the descendants alone)

Sangi39's grouping is not quite as good overall, but better in some places, and he has identified the correct overall protoword *malakʷi [tick]. Congratulations!

Since the internal structure of the stock is still unidentified in large parts (mostly in the north and east), can I ask for some additional effort there? And what are the initial sound changes that form the deepest level of division?
Hints:
(1) Languages on nearby islands may exhibit areal convergence.
(2) There are four first-level families, and all of them contain at least three further subgroups.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by cedh »

Nobody? Well then, here's the solution:
Spoiler:
Image

And here's a tree diagram of the words (note that not all these forms appear on the map, and I think I added one or two forms after I made this image):
Spoiler:
Image
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Gragh! We were so close [:P]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver »

I really like how that tree came out! I couldn't set enough time for myself to fully map out the stages and changes of the protoword, but seeing like this really adds a whole new dimension to these challenges, and gives me quite a few ideas. Congrats, sangi39 for getting the protoform right!
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
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sangi39
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Inkcube-Revolver wrote:I really like how that tree came out! I couldn't set enough time for myself to fully map out the stages and changes of the protoword, but seeing like this really adds a whole new dimension to these challenges, and gives me quite a few ideas. Congrats, sangi39 for getting the protoform right!
Same here. That tree is pretty impressive [:)] Like you, I didn't have enough time to try to get the extra work out the way, so I'm honestly a little surprised that I got the proto-form (I'm happy I sort of got the origin of /gb/, even though I got the branching wrong, but I was worried I'd gotten the vowels wrong).

Has a winner been declared? (as in, is the winner based on proto-form accuracy, or branching accuracy?)
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by cedh »

sangi39 wrote:Has a winner been declared? (as in, is the winner based on proto-form accuracy, or branching accuracy?)
Are you waiting for me to decide this? I'd say it's proto-form accuracy this time, so it's your turn to present a new challenge.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

cedh wrote:
sangi39 wrote:Has a winner been declared? (as in, is the winner based on proto-form accuracy, or branching accuracy?)
Are you waiting for me to decide this? I'd say it's proto-form accuracy this time, so it's your turn to present a new challenge.
Oh my god, so sorry to anyone who was waiting for a new challenge. I did not see this response. If people are still interested, I'll be trying to work on something to put up online some time tomorrow evening/night (say, 9pm BST).
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

I am definitely interested [:)]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

Creyeditor wrote:I am definitely interested [:)]
I don't know anyone who isn't!
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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