Quick Diachronics Challenge

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loglorn
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn »

What you call rambly i call thorough. I had a similar thought process to yours but decided not to document it. We've mostly agreed about the west because the west is far less divergent, and in my opinion a more recent expansion. I'm fairly certain the urheimat is in the east.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Adarain
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain »

loglorn wrote:What you call rambly i call thorough. I had a similar thought process to yours but decided not to document it. We've mostly agreed about the west because the west is far less divergent, and in my opinion a more recent expansion. I'm fairly certain the urheimat is in the east.
Heh, I had the same thought. It's not really thorough though, I just wrote down thoughts as I was making them rather than thinking and then writing. Hence my intermediate reconstructions sometimes changing a bit throughout the text as I change my mind on things.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

Wow, some of your descriptions and details are really exactly what happened, Adarain. Still not everything. Is anyone interested in another hint? It would be some forms from recently extinct languages.
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Adarain
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain »

That sounds like a good type hint, yea.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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ixals
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ixals »

Yeah, I'd like to see another hint as well! [:D]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

So here is the next hint.

Original size
Spoiler:
Image
Small size
Spoiler:
Image
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain »

Alright (watch me get beaten while I type this out), time to fit the data in.

First, a touched up reminder of what I reconstructed last time:

Image

Now I'll try to fit in every newly given word, adjusting my reconstuctions as needed.

tʰɛsanx fits in neatly in (1) without any need of adjusting.

tḁsãh fits into the grouping of (A) without needing to adjust it. It's obviously shares a node with (2) but this detail is not really necessary. The reconstruction of that node is identical to current Proto-A. Thus, (A) remains unchanged, woo.

tʰasəh has two possible groupings. It could either be a close relative of tḁsãh above, requiring no changes to the current reconstruction, or instead be a brother of (3). Under my current reconstruction, it makes more sense to put it into (A) because of the coda -h, which is one of two distinctive features of (A) vs (B) (the other being the second vowel, which is here not relevant). Therefore, I'm putting it together with tḁsãh, forming a new group, uh… 2.5? 2b it is. Bear in mind also the the reconstructed form for 2b is identical to that of A, so technically I guess I can't really call it a group. Whatever.

tʰʰɑsɛ̃ç might for one have a typo, but who cares. More importantly, it confirms my conjecture for the western roundings being caused by backing. The grouping here is very obvious: it goes under (B), closest to (5). No adjustments necessary.

tsæsɛ̃ʔ gives some nice new information: it's obviously under a node with (6), and the glottal stop tells me that (6) in fact under a node with 7-8, not 1-5. Proto-6 now ends with a glottal stop rather than creaky voice, as the latter clearly arose from the former.

tʃasɛ̃k is literally my reconstruction of (II). I'll just group it with (8) to give it a friend and be done with it. A bit of rearranging needs to be done though: I'll call that node (C) and put it under a new (II) tsasɛ̃k which is above (6) and (C)

tʃœsɛ̃k meanwhile gives absolutely no new info. It's literally the same as tʃøsɛ̃k and tʃʷɶsɛ̃k, just with another slightly different vowel quality. So guess where it's grouped and how much it affects my reconstruction.

Looking at the remaining words, this concludes all of Green. No changes to that form necessary. Doesn't really suprise me either, I was quite confident about that one.

tsẽ fits into (9) neatly, no changes required.

ttsĩk also fits into (9), but raises the question of that whole -t vs -k alteration once more, especially when looking at the following word in my list, ttsẽːt. That one clearly forms a node with ttsẽt. Ultimately, the easiest explanation (apart from "those forms are actually quite distant and look similar only by chance/areal effects", which is cute but foundationless) is to say that said last node (9a) for whatever reason changed the coda, which was originally -k. However, there's another curiosity to watch out for and that's the vowel length. One could probably go into some deep analyses here but ultimately that isn't really possible with the data of one whole word (which, btw, is my main criticism of this game, I think it'd be more interesting if there were multiple words involved). One assumption is that the lengthening is related to the loss of the original vowel in syllable one and thus original to that clade, however this seems a bit odd considering it only survived in one word somewhere deep down the branches. My best guess is something like this:

Image

But I don't really like it. Too much handwaving. Oh well, maybe someone else can crack it.

tɬɪssẽk is useful, now. It quite clearly shows that my prediciton of there being an older tɬ was right, woo! It's also, apart from the more specified vowel, identical to my Proto-10.

Looking again at my reconstruction for Blue, I don't quite agree with the method of aspiration. One subbranch shows tɬ, the other ts (though the latter isn't really that useful as it's directly adjacent to an s, so assimilation is probable). Based on this, I assume that proto-blue had tɬ or something similar, but definitely not tʰ.

təʃʃɔ̃q I feel like gives me the info I was missing. It definitely fits into (11), and here is what I conjecture happened: The original coda was -k. This backed to -q in Proto-11. This then caused backing of the vowel, which in turn explains the rounding. Then in the sub-branch containing the currently alive words, the uvular for whatever reason fronts again, retaining the rounding on the vowel. Alternatively, an explanation with the same effect but less straw-grasping is that the vowel first backed and subsequently rounded, which then backed original -k to -q in one word and rounded it in the others. For ease of representation I'm going with the latter, the results are the same.

The final two, təʃʃɛ̃c and təʲɕɕɛ̃k fit neatly into (12). Ultimately what I gather from the whole thing is mostly a lot of confirmations of what I suspected already.

Here's where I'm at currently:

Image

Now some conjectures: The first vowel looks like it would be something like [ɪ] based on blue and orange, and like it would be literally anything else based on green. I still like [ə] as a guess, but I find it more likely that one branch would just lower the vowel for some reason than that two branches would invent a palatalization without reason. Of course another possibility is [əʃː], developing along the lines of əsː → as; ɪʃː → ɪsː, but this again seems like a stretch. So, I guess [ɪ] it is. Everything behind it is basically set in stone. The onset is tricky. Going by sub-major subbranches, we see:
tʰ, ts, (merger with medial s), tɬ and then plain t- in both of orange. I very much doubt that it was plain t- as it's restricted to orange. That leaves us with the options tʰ, ts and tɬ. Of those, I assume tʰ is an innovation. Then ultimately the question lies in "which of ts, tɬ, tθ, tʃ and whatever other options there are is the most likely to yield those results"… the answer to which I don't know. Thus, my current guess sadly must include an archiphoneme.

tSɪsːɛ̃k
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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ixals
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ixals »

You know, I'm just trying something really different and propose something that's the opposite of Adarain's guess.

tʰəsːɛ̃qʲ

Only because "q > ʔ", "q > h", "qʲ > q > kʷ/kw > p" and "qʲ > kʲ > c > tʃ/t" seem likely to me and have been attested, so why not? [:P]

/q/ could also explain some of the vowel backings.
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loglorn
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn »

ixals wrote:You know, I'm just trying something really different and propose something that's the opposite of Adarain's guess.

tʰəsːɛ̃qʲ

Only because "q > ʔ", "q > h", "qʲ > q > kʷ/kw > p" and "qʲ > kʲ > c > tʃ/t" seem likely to me and have been attested, so why not? [:P]

/q/ could also explain some of the vowel backings.
That is the most elegant solution that doesn't involve a cluster imo for that last segment. A wildly differing stance could be to use the extinct form with a long vowel as argument pointing towards the cluster analysis, as compensatory lengthening from the cluster simplification can swiftly explain the lengthening, and once there is a cluster it can be used to explain much.

As for Adarain's comments on areal effect, there are attested isoglosses that "leap" branches so to say, as with the r > R change in Europe, which is an isogloss that crosses the Romance Germanic border, and within Germanic the border between west and north Germanic.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

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ixals
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ixals »

loglorn wrote:That is the most elegant solution that doesn't involve a cluster imo for that last segment. A wildly differing stance could be to use the extinct form with a long vowel as argument pointing towards the cluster analysis, as compensatory lengthening from the cluster simplification can swiftly explain the lengthening, and once there is a cluster it can be used to explain much.
I'll take that as a compliment, thank you! [:D] But my theory for that long nasal vowel was that the vowel was already long in the proto-word and it got either shortened or lowered/backed (à la Polish long nasal vowels) but I think there is not enough proof for that.
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Inkcube-Revolver
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver »

Guys, this is a silly question, but how does one post pictures on this site? I'm having some trouble with this.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

Inkcube-Revolver wrote:Guys, this is a silly question, but how does one post pictures on this site? I'm having some trouble with this.
Like this:

Code: Select all

[img]Your pictures URL[/img]

Shall I give the solution?
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loglorn
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn »

Creyeditor wrote:
Inkcube-Revolver wrote:Guys, this is a silly question, but how does one post pictures on this site? I'm having some trouble with this.
Like this:

Code: Select all

[img]Your pictures URL[/img]

Shall I give the solution?
I'm too lazy to change my reconstruction to account for the new words, so in my part yes.
Last edited by loglorn on 16 Mar 2017 23:18, edited 1 time in total.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver »

This isn't the best looking map, but here's my guess:
Spoiler:
Image

with the protoform I propose being

*tʰəsːə̃kʲ


Edit: Scribal error: *tʰesãh > tʰehãh, not *tʰesanx > tʰehãh
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ixals »

Creyeditor wrote:Shall I give the solution?
I'd be happy to see the solution now that Inkcube-Revolver posted his guess. [:)]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

Wow, I really like the style of your guess, Inkcube-Revolver.

So here is the solution:

The proto-word was: *tassɛ̃k

These are the families.
Spoiler:
Image
The three major subfamilies are the green, the blue and the red languages. Each subfamily is subdivided into dot and bar languages. The blue dot below languages are further subdivided into double dot and single dot languages.
The blue and the green languages are more closely related to each other; they both had a relatively early intervocalic degemination.

So I tried to do a classic family tree. It turns out it is far to big to fit on any image. This is why you get the list style tree. 'XXX' means that a conservative branch died out. I worked with a system where languages can only branch binary, i.e. change or not change. If a language does not change twice it will become extinct. In the final time tier there was a major extinction event. I included the recently extinct languages in the list tree.
Spoiler:
Blue-Green Languages
-tʰassɛ̃k
Blue Languages
--tʰasɛ̃k
Blue dot languages
---tʰasɛ̃h
Blue dot below languages
----tʰasãh
Blue double dot below languages
-----tʰɛsãh
------tʰɛsãh
-------tʰɛhãh
-------XXX
------tʰɛsanh
-------tʰɛsanx
-------tʰɛsan̥
Blue single dot below languages
-----tʰasãh
------tʰazãh
-------tʰazãh
-------tʰaɹãh
------tʰasãh
-------XXX
-------tḁsãh
Blue dot above languages
----tʰasɛ̃h
-----tʰasɛh
------tʰasɛh
-------XXX
-------tʰasəh
------tʰasɛ̥
-------tʰasɛ̥
-------tʰas
-----XXX
Blue bar languages
---tʰasɛ̃k
----tʰasɛ̃ç
Blue bar below languages
-----tʰasɛ̃ç
------XXX
------tʰasɛ̃ʃ
-------tʰasɛ̃ʂ
-------tʰasɛ̃ʃ
Blue bar above languages
-----tʰɑsɛ̃ç
------tʰɑsɛ̃ç
-------XXX
-------tʰʰɑsɛ̃ç
------tʰɒsɛ̃ç
-------tʰɒsɛ̃ç
-------tʰɔsɛ̃ç
----XXX
Green Languages
--tʰasɛ̃k
---XXX
---tsasɛ̃k
Green dot languages
----tsasɛ̃k
-----XXX
-----tsasɛ̃ʔ
------tsasɛ̃ʔ
-------XXX
-------tsæsɛ̃ʔ
------tsasɛ̰̃
-------tsasɛ̰̃
-------tsasɛ̃̀
Green bar languages
----tʃasɛ̃k
Green bar below languages
-----tʃɶsɛ̃k
------tʃœsɛ̃k
-------tʃœsɛ̃k
-------tʃøsɛ̃k
------tʃɶsɛ̃k
-------XXX
-------tʃʷɶsɛ̃k
Green bar above languages
-----tʃasɛ̃k
------XXX
------tʃasɛ̃k
-------tʃasɛ̃k
-------ʃasɛ̃k
Red Languages
-tassɛ̃k
--təssɛ̃k
Red dot languages
---təssẽk
Red dot below languages
----tssẽk
-----tssẽk
------tssẽ
-------tssẽ
-------tsẽ
------XXX
-----ttsẽk
------ttsẽt
-------ttsẽt
-------ttsẽ:t
------ttsẽk
-------XXX
-------ttsĩk
Red dot above languages
----təssẽk
-----tɪssẽk
------tɪssẽk
-------XXX
-------tissẽk
------tɬɪssẽk
-------tɬɪssẽk
-------ɬɪssẽk
-----XXX
Red bar languages
---təssɛ̃k
----təʃʃɛ̃k
Red bar below
-----təʃʃɔ̃k
------təʃʃɔ̃k
-------təʃʃɔ̃q
-------XXX
------təʃʃɔ̃kʷ
-------təʃʃɔ̃kʷ
-------təʃʃɔ̃p
Red bar above
-----təʃʃɛ̃k
------təʃʃɛ̃c
-------təʃʃɛ̃c
-------təʃʃɛ̃tʃ
------təʃʃɛ̃k
-------XXX
------təɕɕɛ̃k
-------təɕɕɛ̃k
-------təʲɕɕɛ̃k
------XXX
----XXX
--XXX
So here is a description of the changes. Most of them were conditional and I found them in some natlang/reconstruction.

The very first split was intervocalic degememination, which the red languages did not do. I think this is not really a weird change. The second split was aspirated initial vs. unaspirated, as some of you have already guessed. Word initial aspiration of voiceless plosives is a very common synchronic process so I extended it to diachronic sound changes. The blue languages were the ones that gained aspiration.
The blue languages than split into the blue dot and the blue bar languages. The blue bar languages underwent a change from word final k to ç. I modelled it after a Northern German change were word final [k] became [ç], but it might actually have been /g/ to [ç] or even *ɣ to [ç], so this change might be a bit dubious. On the other hand you can think of it as spirantization and palatalization after a front vowel. The blue dot languages had a complete debuccalization of word final *k. The blue dot below languages than lowered their nasal vowel (first unconditional change so far). Nasal vowels just do some crazy stuff. The next split between blue double dot below and blue single dot below languages is based on the sound change that fronted and raised low vowels between two coronal consonants (blue double dot languages). The blue bar above languages split from the blue bar below languages, because the former backened their low vowel (second uncoditional change).

The green languages had a change from word intial plosives to affricates (think early stage of High German consonant shift). Later the green bar languages split off by changing *ts to tʃ. This is not really unconditional because I imagine something else happened to intervocalic affricates. The change is attested in some Northeast Caucasian and some Austronesian language I think. Green bar below languages exhibited a change were the low vowel was fronted between coronals and rounded after postalveolars. I drew inspiration from a phonological process in German where vowels are rounded after/before postalveolar. The green dot languages debuccalized the word final *k into a glottal stop (definitely well attested sound change).

Red languages centralized unstressed vowels (even though I don't think stress was distinctive/phonemic). The red dot languages than split off by raising their nasal vowels (aka nasal vowels do some crazy stuff, third unconditional change) in closed syllables. The red dot below languages had a rule of schwa deletion, wereas the red dot above languages raised and fronted their schwa between two coronal consonants. The red bar languages had alveolar fricatives become post alveolar before front vowels. In the red bar below languages the nasal vowel did some crazy stuff and backened and rounded (I think this is attested in French, also fourth unconditional change). This caused crazy changes again.

If you have questions about the finer grained sound changes (I left out the last generation as you may have noticed) feel free to ask.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver »

Alrighty, this was a pretty good one! I didn't consider the original protoform would having a tenuis [t] and that aspiration was an innovation with the attested daughters, so that was an interesting tidbit. I was also very unsure of the situation with the vowels, though seeing how prevalent [a] and [ɛ̃] were, that feels like it should've been a no brainer.

Hope everyone had a safe and fun St. Patrick's Day, and I'm eager to see who was the closest!
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

Okay, so here are the guesses that I collected. You get one point for every correct segment, half a point for every segment that is almost correct and minus half a point for every segment too much. Geminates are one segment.

ixals: 4.5 points
tʰassɛ̃k

Adarain: 3.5 points
tSɪsːɛ̃k

Adarain: 3 points
tʰəsːɛ̃kʷ

ixals: 2.5 points
tʰəsːɛ̃qʲ

loglorn: 2.5 points
tʰVtsẽkt

Inkcube: 2.0 points
tʰəsːə̃kʲ

qwed117: 2.0 points
tʰɵ'sœ̃k

So Ixals is the winner. Congratulations [:)]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

It seems as if my answer was merely a rounded version of the final answer. [:P] The rounding in the various groups really threw me off. I wasnt expecting for the vowels to round. I don't think it was really possible to understand that the aspiration was a later development. We would need more words, not a reanalysis of the current situation. That might be the reason why most language families other than PIE are largely unreconstructible. Not enough words where it matters.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ixals »

Wow, I was really close with my first guess! [:D] I'll try to come up with a new round tomorrow/later today (because I've "won"), but only if nobody has a problem with it tough!

Btw I smiled at the rounding of /a/ after the affricate when I first saw it because I KNEW German inspired you to do that! [:P]
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