Quick Diachronics Challenge

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sangi39
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

My guess at groupings:
Spoiler:
Image
If I had to make a guess at a proto-forms I'd go with... *tʃitʃak and *tʃatʃəŋ
Spoiler:
I would have guessed *tʃatʃəŋ for the second form, but it doesn't show the same shift from palato-alveolar to alveolo-palatal that you see in the first word, so I don't think the second vowel is *i... although... all of the languages that show palatalisation also lack a conditioning environment for it in the second syllable, so if there was a *i > change before palatalisation spread out, that could certain explain it, and it would make more sense than multiple sporadic instances of > *i, so maybe the second word was *tʃatʃiŋ

I had originally thought that the medial consonant was *dʒ but it seems more likely that we're looking at intervocalic voicing than a loss of a voicing distinction.

At a guess I'd say that this had a mix between typical "tree" descent with waves of sound changes crossing nearby branches (palatalisation, tonogenesis, loss of final consonants).
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

I will wait for a few more posts before I give some feedback [:)]
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Inkcube-Revolver
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver »

Creyeditor wrote: Second word:
Spoiler:
Image
Are the two forms at the bottom left supposed to be the same? I went halfway into solving the puzzle and I wasn't completely sure of this.
Edit: Also, are we supposed to find the protoform for the two cognates, or are we just finding the proto-cognates themselves?
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain »

I basically came to the same conclusion as sangi, except that I think the second vowel was indeed *i and that the palatalization simply happened after i→ə. That is, my words are *ˈtʃi.tʃak and *ˈtʃa.tʃiŋ. I conjecture stress was initial because V→ə only happened in unstressed syllables, before stress shifts.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

Inkcube-Revolver wrote:
Creyeditor wrote: Second word:
Spoiler:
Image
Are the two forms at the bottom left supposed to be the same? I went halfway into solving the puzzle and I wasn't completely sure of this.
Edit: Also, are we supposed to find the protoform for the two cognates, or are we just finding the proto-cognates themselves?
Yes, they are supposed to be the same. You are supposed to find two proto-words, one for each cognate set/map.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Any further statements regarding this challenge? [:)]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

Actually, it is already over. Adarain won, he guessed he exact proto-forms. They are btw. the Indonesian words for 'worm' and 'gecko'. Congratulations.
I will provide more information about the changes in the next days. It was a purely wave-based scenario [:D]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Creyeditor wrote:Actually, it is already over. Adarain won, he guessed he exact proto-forms. They are btw. the Indonesian words for 'worm' and 'gecko'. Congratulations.
I will provide more information about the changes in the next days. It was a purely wave-based scenario [:D]
Grargh, I was so close (although I did forget to take stress into account, lol).

Actually, kind of glad Adarain got it. Going back to me would have been a bit... samey and boring [:P]

Congratulations to Adarain [:D]
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So close your eyes once more and once more believe
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Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain »

Well I guess I oughtta do sth then, eh? Sadly I still don’t have the map of my conworld yet so no stuff from my major projects is done yet :/ I can either jot something together (gimme a few hours), or alternatively I’ll skip and post my thing whenever I’ve got it ready (think of pushing my turn to some time in the future). I’ll start working on sth smaller either way though.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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sangi39
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Adarain wrote:Well I guess I oughtta do sth then, eh? Sadly I still don’t have the map of my conworld yet so no stuff from my major projects is done yet :/ I can either jot something together (gimme a few hours), or alternatively I’ll skip and post my thing whenever I’ve got it ready (think of pushing my turn to some time in the future). I’ll start working on sth smaller either way though.
I used a random map generator for mine, and I believe in the past we've just used maps of Europe, whatever fits the migration pattern (with mine I chose one that kind of made the migration pattern a little bit confusing, hence the confusion from some users over where làvá fit in), and *ŋglamat doesn't even come from any of my conlangs, lol.

Few hours, couple of days, it's up to you. I'm happy to wait [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain »

What I meant was that I’m planning a big challenge like these based on a conlang of mine, but I want it to be done with the diachronics I’m actually doing, so it’s gonna take a while. Meanwhile I’ve started a challenge. It won’t be done today tho cause I’m maybe a third done and am going to bed now. Time depth is not deep enough yet.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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sangi39
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Adarain wrote:What I meant was that I’m planning a big challenge like these based on a conlang of mine, but I want it to be done with the diachronics I’m actually doing, so it’s gonna take a while. Meanwhile I’ve started a challenge. It won’t be done today tho cause I’m maybe a third done and am going to bed now. Time depth is not deep enough yet.
Oo, then I look forward to that muchly [:)]

I'd love to see a larger challenge go up when that's ready as well, but we'll see [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

So here is an animated .gif for the first word of my last scenario.
Spoiler:
Image
And here is the groupings exemplified with the second word. You can't see the effects of palatalization here, as Adarain correctly pointed out. I would suggest looking at the processes one by one, because it looks pretty messy otherwise.
Spoiler:
Image
Red: spirantization lenition
Yellow: sonorization lenition
Black: Coda deletion
White: Vowel Reduction
Light Green: Stress shift
Dark Green: Tonogenesis
Light Blue: Palatalization
Dark Blue: Onset Deletion
Purple: Vowel Insertion
Pink: Umlaut
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Ooo, I was so close! [:P]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain »

I’m getting there, maybe I can finish the challenge up today or tomorrow :D
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor »

sangi39 wrote:Ooo, I was so close! [:P]
Yep, there were several groupings that you guessed (almost) correctly. Just a little more overlap than you thought there was.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Adarain wrote:I’m getting there, maybe I can finish the challenge up today or tomorrow :D
You'll be ready when you're ready. Excited to see a new challenge, but no rush [:)]


Creyeditor wrote:
sangi39 wrote:Ooo, I was so close! [:P]
Yep, there were several groupings that you guessed (almost) correctly. Just a little more overlap than you thought there was.
Best bit is, some of the overlap that is there is overlap that, briefly, I did think was there and then ignored [:P]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver »

Is anyone here still up for this? May has come and is almost gone completely (in a wickedly fast fashion, I must add). I have some ideas for different challenges if anyone's game.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by GamerGeek »

Inkcube-Revolver wrote:Is anyone here still up for this?
Why not?
Last edited by GamerGeek on 20 May 2017 05:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

Inkcube-Revolver wrote:Is anyone here still up for this? May has come and is almost gone completely (in a wickedly fast fashion, I must add). I have some ideas for different challenges if anyone's game.
I think Adarain must have forgotten. Give him a day or two, and if he doesn't appear then, I can make a challenge.
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