Quick Diachronics Challenge

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

Image
That's roughly my guess to the groupings. The dashed lines are extremely tenuous connections. I suspect the words were something like *ˈtʰogen and *ipʰuqin, but I haven't delved deep enough yet.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
Click
runic
runic
Posts: 2785
Joined: 21 Jan 2012 12:17

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Click »

Spoiler:
My guesses are *tʰógen and ipʰirkín. The acute accent denotes stress and the r is rather guttural.
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

qwed117 wrote:Image
That's roughly my guess to the groupings. The dashed lines are extremely tenuous connections. I suspect the words were something like *ˈtʰogen and *ipʰuqin, but I haven't delved deep enough yet.
You're almost right when it comes to the "major" groupings in that there is an east vs. west division, but you've misclassified a couple of languages into the wrong groups. Your lower level classifications are similarly almost correct, but a few languages here and there have been placed into the wrong groups.


Click wrote:
Spoiler:
My guesses are *tʰógen and ipʰirkín. The acute accent denotes stress and the r is rather guttural.
I'm more or less tempted to suggest that Click is closer here. You've correctly determined the placement of stress in the proto-language, and that, in the second word, the second syllable is closed by a "guttural" consonant.



I think that's all I'll say for the moment, but it's quite interesting to see incredibly similar preliminary guesses so quickly from two different users. You're not quite there, but I think you might get closer with some more digging [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

]
Very interesting response. Given that there's only 11 languages, and you mention that there's more than one language misplaced, that makes my groupings rather inaccurate, doesn't it....

Hmm, the word "guttural" isn't particularly helpful, but I figure that taking the most colloquial definition is probably safe. I can't really imagine what this guttural consonant could be other than Click's /ʁ/. I guess I'll just attach Click's corrections onto my word and add glottalization instead of aspiration...
*t'ógen
*ip'uʁqín
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

I think I'm going to have to wait for a guess or two from other people before saying anything more [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
Znex
roman
roman
Posts: 1036
Joined: 12 Aug 2013 14:05
Location: Australia

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Znex »

I'm gonna go a bit of a weird way here, with no glottalisations or aspirations:
*tógjən
*əpjaʁkjə́ŋ

My map is not much, but I hope I get some parts right (particularly the relative isolates).
Image
:eng: : [tick] | :grc: : [:|] | :chn: :isr: :wls: : [:S] | :deu: :ell: :rus: : [:x]
Conlangs: Hawntow, Yorkish, misc.
she/her
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Hmmm... let's have a go at this...

Znex's grouping is a little more accurate in some areas, but less so in others. The orange group is a valid low-level grouping and they are related to the languages to the south, but not in the way proposed. In the west, by excluding the language on the small southern island, you've improved on Qwed's black group (which is a valid highest-level grouping), but simultaneously made it too constrained by excluding the language the the north of the northern island.

The only improvement that's been made in terms of the actual proto-words is that they don't contain aspirated or glottalised consonants, but the reflexes seen in the various daughter languages aren't down to *j-final clusters either.

So far you've hit on the following:
a) The first word is bisyllabic, and the second is trisyllabic
b) Both words end in *n
c) The syllable structure of both words
d) The stress placement in both words
e) The coda "guttural" in the second word, and that it's uvular.
f) And Click has correctly guessed the POA of the rest of the consonants in both words

As a hint, there may be some areal influence going on in lower-level groups.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

*tógen and ipʰiʁgín?
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Whoops, sorry, the POA of the second consonant of the first word has not been correctly identified yet.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

*tóɟen and *ipiʁkín?
(EDIT: I don't know why I put aspiration on the second
Last edited by qwed117 on 30 Sep 2017 01:44, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

(sort of a hint) I'd be quite interested in seeing people's thinking on how the various words ended up with voiced and voiceless corresponding pairs.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
jimydog000
greek
greek
Posts: 583
Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
Location: Australia

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 »

Here was my first attempt:
Image

I also tried comparing components such as stress and having something to do with nasality in the coda, but I didn't find too much information.
/tiˈʑen/ + /aˈpoːq/ seems to be a central component to the reconstruction.
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

qwed117 wrote:*tóɟen and *ipiʁkín?
(EDIT: I don't know why I put aspiration on the second
I wondered if you'd notice that, lol. With the lack of aspiration you're actually closer to with the second word but further away with the first.


jimydog000 wrote:Here was my first attempt:
Image

I also tried comparing components such as stress and having something to do with nasality in the coda, but I didn't find too much information.
/tiˈʑen/ + /aˈpoːq/ seems to be a central component to the reconstruction.
Your red groupings on the eastern half of the largest island are correct, but that's about it without really adding too much information regarding the groupings than I've already given.

If I had to pick three languages that would be "central" to the reconstruction, I'd say maybe 'da: - 'ba.ka, 'tain - 'ba.kin and 'tʰuoçən - ɕə'cʰin.

As I mentioned in a previous post, looking at the groupings, especially in regards to the MOA of the various plosives in both words, is fairly important.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

*tʰɔ́ɟen and *əbirqín

Partly based on Sangi's comments. I decided to make the first vowel 'ɔ́' since it had reflexes similar to proto-Romance *ǫ. I also made the (previous) *p in the second word a *b considering how its voicing is differently affected throughout the range of words. I suspect the creaky voicing in [a'pak] may be because of the voicing being lost. When the stress moved back in the language, the effect was also to devoice the *b.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

qwed117 wrote:*tʰɔ́ɟen and *əbirqín

Partly based on Sangi's comments. I decided to make the first vowel 'ɔ́' since it had reflexes similar to proto-Romance *ǫ. I also made the (previous) *p in the second word a *b considering how its voicing is differently affected throughout the range of words. I suspect the creaky voicing in [a'pak] may be because of the voicing being lost. When the stress moved back in the language, the effect was also to devoice the *b.
Unfortunately getting colder.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Went a tad quiet there didn't it? [:P]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

You really are just gonna have to give us a hint.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Hmmm... the only one I can think of, and the one that inspired some of the sound changes, would be... "Yapese" and "glottalisation"
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

*tʰɔ́qən and *əpirkín

That's all I got

Maybe a Proto-lang inventory could help?
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

qwed117 wrote:*tʰɔ́qən and *əpirkín

That's all I got

Maybe a Proto-lang inventory could help?
Oooo, getting closer there [:D]

The phoneme inventory isn't actually that bad, just:

/p t ts k q/
/m n ŋ/
/s h/
/r l/
/w j/

/i u/
/e o/
/a/

(C)V(C) with unpredictable final or penultimate stress.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Post Reply