Vålkakil

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Re: Vålkakil

Post by shimobaatar »

Omzinesý wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:Regarding vowel orthography, I'd personally go with something like this:

/i y ɯ u/ <и ӱ~ү ы у>
/e ø ɘ o/ <е ӧ~ө ӹ~ә о>
/ä ɒ/ <ӓ а>
I think Cyrillic orthographies rarely use dots. Russian has <ë> that is usually written just <e>. Udmurt has <ö> for schwa.

The distinction between /ä/ and /ɒ/ is not that of POA but rounding.
In which orthography is <ү> used?
The letters with "dots" are all used in real Cyrillic orthographies:
  • <ӱ> is used for /y/ in Khanty, Mari, Komi-Yazva, Altai, Khakas, and Shor.
  • <ӧ> is used for /ø/ in Altai, Khakas, and Shor, and for /œ/ in Mari.
  • <ӹ> is used for /ə/ in Mari.
  • <ӓ> is used for /ɐ/ in Khanty, and for /æ/ in Mari and Gagauz.
Alternatively, you could have <а а̊> /ä ɒ/, because <а̊> is used for /ɔ/ or /ɒ/ in Selkup.
  • <ү> is used in Bashkir, Buryat, Kalmyk, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Mongolian, Tatar, and Tuvan. It is mostly used for /y/ or /ʏ/.
  • <ө> is used in Bashkir, Buryat, Kalmyk, Kazakh, Komi-Yazva, Kyrgyz, Mongolian, Tuvan, and Yakut. It is mostly used for /ø/ or /œ/.
  • <ә> is used for /ɤ/ in Dungan, and historically for /ə/ or /ε~a/ in Kurmanji.
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

shimobaatar wrote:
Omzinesý wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:Regarding vowel orthography, I'd personally go with something like this:

/i y ɯ u/ <и ӱ~ү ы у>
/e ø ɘ o/ <е ӧ~ө ӹ~ә о>
/ä ɒ/ <ӓ а>
I think Cyrillic orthographies rarely use dots. Russian has <ë> that is usually written just <e>. Udmurt has <ö> for schwa.

The distinction between /ä/ and /ɒ/ is not that of POA but rounding.
In which orthography is <ү> used?
The letters with "dots" are all used in real Cyrillic orthographies:
  • <ӱ> is used for /y/ in Khanty, Mari, Komi-Yazva, Altai, Khakas, and Shor.
  • <ӧ> is used for /ø/ in Altai, Khakas, and Shor, and for /œ/ in Mari.
  • <ӹ> is used for /ə/ in Mari.
  • <ӓ> is used for /ɐ/ in Khanty, and for /æ/ in Mari and Gagauz.
Alternatively, you could have <а а̊> /ä ɒ/, because <а̊> is used for /ɔ/ or /ɒ/ in Selkup.
  • <ү> is used in Bashkir, Buryat, Kalmyk, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Mongolian, Tatar, and Tuvan. It is mostly used for /y/ or /ʏ/.
  • <ө> is used in Bashkir, Buryat, Kalmyk, Kazakh, Komi-Yazva, Kyrgyz, Mongolian, Tuvan, and Yakut. It is mostly used for /ø/ or /œ/.
  • <ә> is used for /ɤ/ in Dungan, and historically for /ə/ or /ε~a/ in Kurmanji.
Okey
Now I have many alternatives.
I had an impression that the Cyrillic writing system avoids diacritics and rather composes a new character, altogether.
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Re: Vålkakil

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Copular endings

koj-lu 'I am a man.'
koj-lï 'You are a man.'
koj '[is] a man.'
koj-k-lu 'We are men.'
koj-k-lï 'You are men.'
koj-ok '[are] men.'

As can be seen, the third person forms are just the nominative singular and plural of the noun. First and second persons have suffixes that derive from the Finnic-Saami copular verb root *lee. They adapt to front back alternation. If the stem only has a or å, the ending has a front vowel. The person of the subject is not marked but a predicative presupposes a plural subject.

Other TAMs or negation must be expressed with lexical verbs.
Edit: The past is formed with past copula vål, which is an unaccusative verb.
vållü 'I was'
vålli 'You were'
vål 'was'
vålk 'We were'
vålkly 'You were'
vålkli 'were'

Kojlu. 'I am a man.'
Koj vållü. 'I was a man.'


Negation, however, needs just the negative verb, not a copular verb. A negative predicative usually has the partitive case.

Kojta őm. 'I am not a man.'
Kojta *vålo eśöm. 'I was not a man.' lit. 'I didn't [be] a man.'

Unaccusative conjugation


The copular endings can also be added to verb stems to form unaccusative intransitive verbs. The subject of unaccusative verbs is a patient(like argument).

kul-lu 'I die.'
kul-lï 'You die.'
kul 'dies'
kul-klu 'We die.'
kul-klï 'You all die.'
kul-ok 'die'

Unaccusative SG3 is the simplest verb form, the bare stem.
The formal difference between unaccusative VERBs and copular forms of NOUNs is that unaccusative verbs can have TAMs. I'm not sure how they are formed for any verb.
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Re: Vålkakil

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Plural

The plural suufix is /k/, /ok/ or /ök/. It's apparently related to the Hungarian plural suffix.
In the nominative /k/ is used if the coda is phonologically acceptable, i.e. the word ends in a short vowel + one fricative or one liquid, e.g. pof 'a tree' - pofk 'trees', nul 'arrow' - nulk 'arrows'. The usage of /ok/ or /ök/ depends on vowel harmony. /ok/ is used after a or å.

For other cases the plural suffix is usually /k/.

Plural partitive does not exist. There are semantic reasons for that.
Source cases merge with the corresponding location cases.

koj 'man'

NOM koj-ok
ACC koj-k-ä
GEN.DAT koj-k-a

INESS koj-k-an
ELAT koj-k-an
SUPER koj-k-al
DELAT koj-k-al


If the noun has several stems, plurals are formed from the oblique stem.

Singular 'eye'
NOM śelem
ACC śelmå
GEN.DAT śelma
PART śelemta

INESS śelman
ELAT śelemtan
SUPER śelmal
DELAT śelemtal


plural 'eyes'
NOM śelmök
ACC śelmökå
GEN.DAT śelmöka

INESS śelmökan
ELAT śelmökan
SUPER śelmökal
DELAT śelmökal
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

Unergative verb:

men-ek 'to go'

PRESENT
SG1 menn
SG2 menet
SG3 menö
PL1 menme
PL3 mente
PL3 menök

PAST
SG1 meni
SG2 menit
SG3 menej
PL1 menime
PL3 menite
PL3 meneć

FUTURE
SG1 menem
SG2 menet (identical to the present)
SG3 menes
PL1 meneme
PL3 menete
PL3 menek



I' not sure if mentek can be inflected in the transitive conjugation. If so, it means 'take'. This is just an example paradigm.

PRESENT
SG1 menen <- menem-ta
SG2 menetta <- menet-ta
SG3 menta <- men-ta
PL1 menemta <-mene-me-ta
PL3 mente <-menedta <- mene-te-ta
PL3 mentak (analogical with SG1)

PAST
SG1 menin
SG2 menitta
SG3 menca
PL1 menimta
PL3 menidta
PL3 mencak

FUT
SG1 mentam
SG2 mentat
SG3 mentas
PL1 mentame
PL3 mentate
PL3 mentak (analogical with the unergative conjugation)


Unaccusative
(menlek means something like 'to end up')

PRESENT
SG1 menlü
SG2 menli
SG3 men
PL1 menklü
PL2 menkli
PL3 menk

PAST
(The past form is formed from past participle -t.)
SG1 mentlü
SG2 mentli
SG3 ment
PL1 mentklü
PL2 mentkli
PL3 mentök

FUTURE
(The future participle might be -eng/-ëng.)
SG1 menenglü
SG2 menengli
SG3 meneng
PL1 menenklü
PL2 menenkli
PL3 menenk
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

I'm still struggling with consinant gradation.
Most consonant gradations are based on prestopping.

Strong - weak
r - dr
R -dR
l - dl
m - bm
n - dn
ng - gng

Geminates and cobsonant clusters get a voiced first component.
pp - bp
tt - dt
cc - dc
...

I have problems deciding where the weak grade really appears.

NOM matt
ACC madtå
DAT madta

doesn't look fine because the nominative without suffix would be the only case in the weak grade.

This was a messy post :(
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

Omzinesý wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:
Omzinesý wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:Regarding vowel orthography, I'd personally go with something like this:

/i y ɯ u/ <и ӱ~ү ы у>
/e ø ɘ o/ <е ӧ~ө ӹ~ә о>
/ä ɒ/ <ӓ а>
I think Cyrillic orthographies rarely use dots. Russian has <ë> that is usually written just <e>. Udmurt has <ö> for schwa.

The distinction between /ä/ and /ɒ/ is not that of POA but rounding.
In which orthography is <ү> used?
The letters with "dots" are all used in real Cyrillic orthographies:
  • <ӱ> is used for /y/ in Khanty, Mari, Komi-Yazva, Altai, Khakas, and Shor.
  • <ӧ> is used for /ø/ in Altai, Khakas, and Shor, and for /œ/ in Mari.
  • <ӹ> is used for /ə/ in Mari.
  • <ӓ> is used for /ɐ/ in Khanty, and for /æ/ in Mari and Gagauz.
Alternatively, you could have <а а̊> /ä ɒ/, because <а̊> is used for /ɔ/ or /ɒ/ in Selkup.
  • <ү> is used in Bashkir, Buryat, Kalmyk, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Mongolian, Tatar, and Tuvan. It is mostly used for /y/ or /ʏ/.
  • <ө> is used in Bashkir, Buryat, Kalmyk, Kazakh, Komi-Yazva, Kyrgyz, Mongolian, Tuvan, and Yakut. It is mostly used for /ø/ or /œ/.
  • <ә> is used for /ɤ/ in Dungan, and historically for /ə/ or /ε~a/ in Kurmanji.
Okey
Now I have many alternatives.
I had an impression that the Cyrillic writing system avoids diacritics and rather composes a new character, altogether.
I think I'll quite follow what shimobaatar suggested.
/i y ɯ u/ <и ӱ ы у>
/e ø ɘ o/ <е ӧ ӹ о>
/ä ɒ/ <a ө>

I'll however use <ө> for the low rounded vowel.

The Latin orthography, which is less used than the Cyrillic one, is also changed tp correspond to Polish ï -> y, ë -> ÿ .

There are also letters for /ja/, /jy/, and /jy/, <я>, <ю>, and <ю¨> respectively, which also appear word-initially.

Long vowels are written in Latin alphabet in German style V + h, i.e. <ah, åh, eh, ih, oh, öh, uh, üh, yh, ÿh>, and in Cyrillic <аь, өъ, еь, иь, оъ, öъ, уъ, у¨ъ, ы¨ъ, ы¨ъ>. The criterion between <ъ and ь> is how they are the easiest to hand-write.

The yers are thus allographic. A yer is also used after resonants to mark some consonant gradations <мь, нь, нъ, ль, рь>. /n/ is written <нь> and /ŋ/ is written <нъ>. In the short grade only <н> is written and its homarganic with the following consonant.
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

I saw I have a problem with <г>. It's usually used to mark /ʀ/. It's however rarely needed for marking the weak grade of /kk/, namely /gk/.

If /ʀk/ is written <гк> and its weak grade <гьк>, the weak grade of /kk/ could of course be written for example <гък> but it would not be elegant because the weak grades of /pp/, /tt/, /t͡s/, /t͡ʃ/, and /t͡ɕ/ are written /бп/, /дт/, /дц/, /дш/, and /дч/ respectively, i.e. without a yer.
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Re: Vålkakil

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Re: Vålkakili

Post by Omzinesý »

Omzinesý wrote:Declension

PU has two word-final vowels
Vålkakil reduses word-final vowels. They are however preserved before some case endings. (Here I suppose the low word-final vowel was unrounded, at least in Pre-Vålkakil.)

Example word is kå't 'house'

Nom kå't <- kåta
Acc kå'tå <- kåta-m (labialization because of m)
Dat-gen kå'ta <- kåta-n
Part kå'tta <- kåta-tɯ

Iness kå'tan <- kåta-na
Elat kåt'tant <- kåta-na-tɯ
Superess kå'tal (West-Uralic l case)
Delat kå'talt
Adess kå'tkerg <- kåta + kera
Abl kå'tkergt

Maybe more cases to come.
I'll change the local cases. They will be: locative (at, in, on) ablative (from), orientative (towards, to), terminative (to, as far as).
So the Hungarian-style three-way system (in, on, near) will disappear.
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

The locative and approximative attach to the strong stem. If there is a strong consonant stem, they attach to it.
The ablative and the terminative take the weak vowel stem.

LOC коът-са 'in the house'
ABL коъра-т 'from the house'
APPR коът-сон 'to(wards) the house'
TERM коъра-к '(in)to the house'

LOC кони-с 'on a horse'
ABL кодни-т 'from a horse'
APPR кони-сен 'to(wards) a horse'
TERM кодни-к '(on) to a horse'
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

Do Uralic langauges have other elements meaning 'from' than the tV-element that is the partitive in Finnic?
The l in Hungarian bo-l is a reflex of it too.
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by gach »

Omzinesý wrote:Do Uralic langauges have other elements meaning 'from' than the tV-element that is the partitive in Finnic?
Not that I know of, -tV seems to be the only ancient ablative element in Uralic. If you want some variation, it's best to get it by letting a new formation replace the old ablative. You could derive the new case for example from a postposition or some construction based on a repurposed derivation.
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

A gain a renewed paradigm of noun cases:

Monosyllabic vocalic stems:
'man'

NOM кэь këh
ACC кэьм këhm
GEN-DAT кэьн këhn
PART кэьтэ këhtë

LOC кэьса këhsa
ABL кэьрэ këhrë
TERMIN кэьк këhk
APPR кэьвэк këhvëk


Monosyllabic consonant stems:
'house, dwelling'

NOM кор kor
ACC кодрө kodrå
GEN-DAT кодра kodra
PART кортэ kodrë

LOC корса korsa
ABL корарэ korarë
TERMIN кодрак kodrak
APPR кодрөк kodråk


Multi-syllabic vowel stems:
'school'

NOM шуълэ šuhlë
ACC шуъдло šuhdlo
GEN-DAT шуъдлэ šuhdlë
PART шуълэрэ šuhlërë

LOC шуълэса šuhlësa
ABL шуълэрэ šuhlërë
TERMIN шуъдлэк šuhdlëk
APPR шуълoк šuhlok


Multisyllabic consonant stems:
'god'

NOM йобмөл jobmål
ACC йомьлө jom.lå
GEN-DAT йомьла jom.la
PART йобмөлтэ jobmåltë

LOC йомөлса jobmålsa
ABL йобмөлтэ jobmåltë
TERM йомьлак jom.lak
APPR йомьлөк jom.låk
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

gach wrote:
Omzinesý wrote:Do Uralic langauges have other elements meaning 'from' than the tV-element that is the partitive in Finnic?
Not that I know of, -tV seems to be the only ancient ablative element in Uralic. If you want some variation, it's best to get it by letting a new formation replace the old ablative. You could derive the new case for example from a postposition or some construction based on a repurposed derivation.
Thank you

ATM i'm staying with -tV that is lenited to -rë in some forms.
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

I'm changing the orthography again.

1. /i/ i i (ih )
3. /y/ ü ÿ (üh )
/ɯ/ y ы (yh ыь~yь)
/u/ u у (uh уъ)
/e/ e е (eh еь)
3. /ø/ ö ö (öh )
3. /ɘ/ õ ë (õh oъ)
/o/ o о (oh оъ)
/a/ a а (ah аь)
2. /ɶ/ å ѡ (åh ѡъ~aъ)

1. <и> is changed to <i> because Belorussian seems to use it.
2. <ѡ> the Cyrillic omega is used for the low rounded vowel.
3. Sorth rounded back vowels /y/ and /ø/ and unrounded mid back vowel /ɘ/ now have dots <ÿ>, <ö>, and <ë> respectively. Those dots are often omitted, like with Russian <ë>, and just <y>, <o> and <e> are used. That's especially commen in suffixes whose backing/fronting is defined by vowel harmony anyway.
4. Long rounded vowels are now consistently written with <ъ> and long unrounded vowels with <ь>. So /e:/ is written <eь> and /ø:/ with <eъ>. Most long vowels derive from diphthongs ei -> e:, eu -> ø:. So long vowels never have dots.
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

I have two alternatives for the basic sound changes leading from PU to Vålkakil.
/A/ and /E/ represent the PU lower and higher unstressed vowels, respectively. They may have some vowel harmony.

1. World-final /E/ disappears.
2. Stressed open syllables lengthen.
3. Word-final /A/ disappers
4. Inter-vocalic plosives lenitate.

The west-Uralic alternative

Code: Select all

vetE  kotA
1. vet   kotA
2. vet   ko:tA
3. vet   ko:t

vet 'water' ko:t 'house' 
4. verat 'waters' ko:rat 'houses' 
East-Uralic alternative

Code: Select all

vetE kotA
1. vet kotA
4. vet korA
3. vet kor 

vet 'water' kor 'house'
vetat 'waters' korat 'houses' 
In "East-Uralic alternative" long vowels are developed by lenitation of /p/ and /k/, which can also appear in what is coda in modern Vålkakil.
In "west-Uralic alternative" long vowels are developed by lengthening open stressed syllables.
"West-Uralic" alternative generates a Finnic/Saami-kind vowel gradation, but I think I don't want Vålkakil to have them. I think I'll go with "East-Uralic" alternative and develop some other consonant alternations. Maybe gemination/prestopping at morpheme boundary (vettat 'waters', kodrat 'houses'), though I don't what them to every word either.
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

Like most Uralic languages, Vålkakil also has a possessed declension.

SG1 possessive suffix is /i/ in the accusative and genitive-dative and /j/ <й> everywhere else.
SG2 possessive suffix is /ts/ <ц>
SG3 possessive suffix is /S/ <ш>

In the nominative, possive suffixes join the vocalic stem.
The nominative and genitive-dative have an augment /n/ before the possessive suffix.
In the approximative and terminative, the -k suffix has been replaced by compensatory lengthening before the possessive suffix.

Above is singular paradigm of all cases of singular possessors and possesseed.

My, your, his/her/its
NOM корай, корац, кораш
ACC корwни, корwнц, корwнтш
GEN-DAT кораны, коранц, корантш
PART кортай, кортац, корташ

LOC корсай, корсац, корсаш
ABL коррай, коррац, корраш
APPR корwъй, корwъц, корwъш
TERM кораьй, кораьц, кораьш
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

Other noun cases:

Essive -ан
Comitative-instumrntal -кер (-кёр)
Abessive -афт
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Re: Vålkakil

Post by Omzinesý »

A new idea for consonant gradation - again.

Most of the sc. long consonants are created this way:

A consonant between the stressed first syllable and the following is geminated if the following syllable has a long vowel.

kor 'hause'
kora-j -> kori: -> korri: 'cozy'

On the morphemic boundary nasal and liquid affricates are prestopped.
korri: -> kodri:

Non-stressed long vowels often shorten, especially in central dialects.
kodri: -> kodri


There are also sc. overlong consonants.
Vålkakil avoids trisyllabic words and the vowel of the second syllable is often elided. This elision however causes the preceding consonant to lengthen and get voiced.

* kot-a ker
house-GEN with

kota ker -> kotakɘr -> kotəkɘr -> kodəkɘr -> kod:kɘr <кодкер> 'house.COM'


Consonant clusters are always considered long or overlong. Below there are all consonants that are not clustered.
Sort consonant - long consonant - overlong consonant

Stops:
short voiceless - long voiceless - long voiced + short voiceless
p - p: - b:p <п пп бп>
t - t: - d:t <т тт дт>
k - k: - g:k <к кк ґк>

Affricates:
Don't usually appear intervocally.
Don's undergo gradation.

Sibilants:
short voiceless - long voiceless - voiced prestopped + voiceless
s - s: - d:s <с сс дс>
ʃ - ʃ: - d:ʃ <ш шш дш>
ɕ - ɕ: - d:ɕ <щ щщ дщ>

Nasals:
short - prestopped - long
m - bm - mm <м бм мм>
n - dn - nn <н дн нн>
ŋ - gŋ - ŋ: <ҥ ґҥ ҥҥ>

Liquids:
short - prestopped - long
l - dl - l: <л дл лл>
r - dr - r <р др рр>
ʀ - ɢʀ - ʀ: <г ґг гг>

Semivowels:
Cannot be geminated. Don't undergo gradation outside consonant clusters.
j <j>
ʋ <в>
(f) <ф>
(ç) <х>
h <ъ>
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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