Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

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All4Ɇn
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn »

I'm not used to making languages that are so light on grammar and am not sure where I should go from what I have so far. Does anyone have any ideas?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Creyeditor »

How about some syntactic constructions?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Frislander »

What's happened to the remnants of morphology which made it into Proto-Chamic? Have they all been lost or are there relics still somewhere for you to show us?

If you've lost it all, it would be good to say so before giving syntactical constructions, as Creyeditor said.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn »

Frislander wrote:What's happened to the remnants of morphology which made it into Proto-Chamic? Have they all been lost or are there relics still somewhere for you to show us?
There's still quite a bit of Proto-Chamic grammar elements brought in. The bigger problem is that Proto-Chamic on its own is pretty light on grammar. I could definitely go into verbs and prepositions/particles though. I can move into syntax from there
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 03 May 2017 20:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn »

Verbs
Adjectives do not exist in Ởnh·Vú and work identical to verbs. A verb typically consists of an unchangeable root which is either preceded or followed by a particle which can change meaning of the verb. Verbs are never indicated for tense or mood

Particles:
庄 (Bè)- Marks the negative imperative. Placed directly after the verb
庄 (Bũ)...空 (Ỏ)- Negates non-imperative verb. Placed around the verb
𣗓 (Ca)...空 (Ỏ)- Means not yet. Placed around the verb
𠫾 (No)- Marks the positive imperative. Placed directly before the verb
咳 (Ich)- Marks the positive 1st person plural imperative. Placed directly before the verb
咳 (Ich)...空 (Ỏ)- Marks the negative 1st person plural imperative. Placed around the verb
被 (Đram)- Marks the passive voice. Placed directly before the verb
抷 (Pơ)- Marks the causative form. Placed directly before the verb

Irregular Causative
34 verbs form their causatives irregularly. For 32 of these verbs the causative is formed by leniting the beginning consonant /ɓ ɗ g/ to /β ð ɣ/ rather than using the particle Pơ. In writing this change is marked the same as a normal causative with the character which in this case is not pronounced. 抷 is one of only 2 characters that can be silent in some words.

Verbs With Lenited Causatives:
Spoiler:
𢩮 (Ba)- To Lead
芒 (Bà)- To Carry/Wear
𣿌 (Bả)- To Be Wet/Moist/Damp (To Wet/Moisten/Dampen in Causative)
平 (Bành)- To Be Flat/Level/Plain (To Flatten/Level in causative)
菭 (Bap)- To Be Full (To Fill in causative)
𡮣 (Bì)- To Be Small (To Shrink/Reduce in causative)
𠅳 (Bit)- To Forget (To Make Forget/To Stop Remembering in causative)
𢴒 (Boc)- To Swell/Bulge/Bloat/Expand (To Swell/Inflate/Blow Up in causative)
咹 (Bơnh)- To Eat (To Feed/Make Eat in causative)
𤋿 (Bơnh)- To Burn/Be Buring (To Burn/Set On Fire in causative)
枯 (Bú)- To Be Dry (To Dry in causative)
䀡 (Bũ)- To See (To Show in causative)
瞙 (Bum)- To Be Blind (To Blind in causative)
𧁷 (Bũnh)- To Be Poor/Cheap (To Impoverish/Make Poor/Ruin in causative)
爫 (Bưt)- To Do/Make
漊 (Đãm)- To Be Deep (To Deepen in causative)
𦣰 (Đãnh)- To Lie/Lie Down (To Lay/Lay Down in causative)
𢯛 (Đap)- To Align/Line Up/Arrange
𧾌 (Đep)- To Hide/Be Hidden (To Hide/Conceal in causative)
滁 (Đer)- To Be Shallow
𨖲 (Đì)- To Rise/Go Up/Climb (To Raise/Lift/Augment in causative)
𥄬 (Đĩ)- To Sleep/Be Asleep
抖 (Đõ)- To Pull/Drag
𨅸 (Đơnh)- To Stand/Stand Up (To Stand Up/Position/Place in causative)
㧅 (Đư)- To Carry/Wear On The Head
𧼋 (Đưc)- To Run/Flow
𡗅 (Gac)- To Return/Come Back/Go Home (To Reverse/Revert/Make Return in causative)
狹 (Gãit)- To Be Narrow (To Narrow/Reduce In Width in causative)
𦠰 (Gãom)- To Carry On The Shoulder
要 (Ghẽ)- To Be Tired/Weak (To Tire/Weaken in causative)
𡚢 (Gõnh)- To Be Tall/High (To Heighten/Elevate in causative)
𨑜 (Gỡ)- To Fall/Go Down/Descend (To Trip/Fell in causative)
捲 (Gũnh)- To Roll (To Roll Up/Curl Up in causative)
In addition to these there are 2 completely irregular causative forms:
固 (A)- There Be/To Have; Causative: Pa
罖 (Nãnh)- Be (Used with nouns); Causative: Sãnh
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 21 Aug 2018 08:41, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Creyeditor »

Nice, especially the soft causative [:)] I have a few questions though:
  • Can objects of transtive verbs be ommited?
  • Is there a way to add objects to a verb, that normally only takes one?
  • How can a temporal reference be given? By adverbs? Are there any other constructions?
  • The same for sentence mood, modality and aspect
  • Is there any kind of reduplication?
  • Is there any kind of subject/object agreement? Can pronouns be reduced in some constructions (maybe to clitics)?
  • Do verbs follow or precede their objects? Can the order be reversed in certain contexts?
  • How many objects can a verb take?
  • Are there any multi-verb-constructions? Are there constructions with auxilary verbs?
  • Can the verb and its subject be inversed in any context?
  • Are there verbs without a subject (e.g. 'to rain' maybe)?
Just some questions about verbal syntax that came to my mind [:)] Maybe as an inspiration, what to think about in less-morphology languages
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn »

Creyeditor wrote:Nice, especially the soft causative [:)] I have a few questions though
Thanks! [:)] I appreciate all questions. Let me know if you have any others
Creyeditor wrote:Can objects of transtive verbs be omitted?
Yep
Creyeditor wrote:Is there a way to add objects to a verb, that normally only takes one?
Not sure entirely I understand the question. Do you mean how "and" works in a sentence like "I like dogs and cats"? If so then yes and it works much like how it does in English
Creyeditor wrote:How can a temporal reference be given? By adverbs? Are there any other constructions? The same for sentence mood, modality and aspect
Solely through adverbs. There are no other methods. Modality however is expressed through modal verbs.
Creyeditor wrote:Is there any kind of reduplication?
Some single syllable words undergo reduplication to prevent being confused with other words (such as Ãc- Child; Ãc·Ãc- Crow) and few nouns may form collective plurals using it as well.
Creyeditor wrote:Is there any kind of subject/object agreement? Can pronouns be reduced in some constructions (maybe to clitics)?
No but the idea of clitic pronouns sounds like it'd be pretty cool to add to this. Not sure how common that is in southeast Asia though.
Creyeditor wrote:Do verbs follow or precede their objects? Can the order be reversed in certain contexts? Can the verb and its subject be inversed in any context?
Verbs precede their objects and the syntax is never changed.
Creyeditor wrote:How many objects can a verb take?
Infinite I believe.
Creyeditor wrote:Are there any multi-verb-constructions?
Verbs can be linked with the aid of a particle
Creyeditor wrote:Are there constructions with auxilary verbs?
Modal verbs as well as arguably some verb prefixes (such as those for making comparatives/superlatives)
Creyeditor wrote:Are there verbs without a subject (e.g. 'to rain' maybe)?
Impersonal verbs do not take a subject.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Frislander »

All4Ɇn wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:Do verbs follow or precede their objects? Can the order be reversed in certain contexts? Can the verb and its subject be inversed in any context?
Verbs precede their objects and the syntax is never changed.
This sounds a bit odd to me, given the topic-prominent syntax of all the other languages of the area, including Vietnamese and Chinese.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Creyeditor »

Thank you for your answers, I can't wait to see more detailed descriptions at some later point.
All4Ɇn wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:Is there a way to add objects to a verb, that normally only takes one?
Not sure entirely I understand the question. Do you mean how "and" works in a sentence like "I like dogs and cats"? If so then yes and it works much like how it does in English
Creyeditor wrote:How many objects can a verb take?
Infinite I believe.
Some clarification: I was thinking about applicative like constructions. Here is some not-too-bad example from German.

Ich fahre (auf der Straße).
I drive on the.DAT street
I drive on the street.

Ich be-fahre die Straße.
I APPL-drive DEF.ACC.F street
I drive on the street.

*Ich befahre.
I APPL-drive
I drive.


In the first example you do not need an object because the verb is intransitive and the 'street' is just a location expressed by some adverbial-like construction. In the second example on the other hand the 'street' has become a proper object that cannot be omitted (see third example) and gets accusative case. I know that some language (Mandarin Chinese, I think) have periphrastic constructions to make a verb take more objects than it usually does.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn »

Frislander wrote:This sounds a bit odd to me, given the topic-prominent syntax of all the other languages of the area, including Vietnamese and Chinese.
There are topic-like particles in the grammar but syntax isn't changed to compensate for them unless its an adverb.
Creyeditor wrote:In the first example you do not need an object because the verb is intransitive and the 'street' is just a location expressed by some adverbial-like construction. In the second example on the other hand the 'street' has become a proper object that cannot be omitted (see third example) and gets accusative case. I know that some language (Mandarin Chinese, I think) have periphrastic constructions to make a verb take more objects than it usually does.
Ah I think I see what you're saying. As objects can be omitted situations like this don't typically happen. With Mandarin afaik a verb that takes 2 objects use two that are in some one way related to each other. Ởnh·Vú would use possession in this case and can only take one direct object without the use of a conjunction
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

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Okay, thank you for the info. If verbs are linked by a particle, can both have an object of their own. Can they also have a subject of their own?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn »

Creyeditor wrote:Okay, thank you for the info. If verbs are linked by a particle, can both have an object of their own. Can they also have a subject of their own?
Not in that case. If they have different subjects or objects they'd take a conjunction instead
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

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Wow, that was a great conversation [:)]
I don't usually see someone answering that fast over here.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn »

Creyeditor wrote:Wow, that was a great conversation [:)]
I don't usually see someone answering that fast over here.
Thanks [:D]. Given all the different time zones on this board I find myself doing the same thing sometimes
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn »

Given the amount of time it takes for me to take a screenshot of each individual character, I was wondering how you guys would feel about me taking pictures for each entire post instead. That'll also make it a lot easier to post sample sentences.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Lao Kou »

You should, of course, do what's easiest for you. We'll manage. [:)]
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Frislander »

If it sorts out the distracting disparity in character sizes, I can't say I oppose it.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn »

Let me know what you guys think of the formatting [:)]
Prepositions
𤲂 (Ã)- Below/Under/At The Bottom
𨕭 (Ả)- Above/On/On Top Of
行 (Ánh)- Through/Across/By
头 (Áo)- To/Towards
𠓀 (Ãp)- Before
𠓀梗 (Ãp·Khã)- In Front Of
朱 (Cơ)- To/For (Indirect Object)
於 (Đi)- At/In/With (Instrumental)
於在 (Đi·Mơnh)- (In Order) To/So That
*自 (Đì)- Since/Until/From
𥪝 (Đrãm)- In/Inside/Within
梗 (Gã)- Next To/Beside
𧵆 (Gè)- Near/Almost/Close To
耒 (Húy)- After
𧶮 (Mờ)- Of (Indicates Possession) (If preceded by a noun and counter means one like red one)
在 (Mơnh)- From/Because Of/By (Passive Voice)
唄 (Nanh)- With
外 (Nio)- Out/Outside
空 (Ỏ)- Without
**𠌨 (Pá)- To/Into/Towards
遶 (Tuy)- According To
除 (Sả)- Except For/Aside From/Apart From/Besides
賴 (Yo)- Despite/Contrary/In Spite Of

Usage note:
*自 usually means since/until but is also used to express from a to b, from a till b, and a to b (such as in 8 to 10 days), all of which would be expressed as 自a自b
**𠌨 is only used for indicating movement towards a vague concept rather than something concrete. Some common words encountered with it are directions (left, straight, north etc.) and periods of time (past, future, etc.)

Irregular Indirect Objects
Similar to the irregular causatives, a small group of 18 nouns, pronouns and determiners form their indirect objects by lenition of /ɓ ɗ g/ to /β ð ɣ/
Spoiler:
𠰺穌員 (Ba·To·Quon)- Teacher
伴 (Bàn)- You (Informal)
伴侶 (Bàn·Lú)- Friend
巫𥳉 (Bi·Gio)- Medical Doctor/Witch Doctor/Shaman
𡛔𡥵 (Bính·Ãc)- Girl/Daughter
𡛔伴 (Bính·Bàn)- Girlfriend
𡛔𡥙 (Bính·Cứnh)- Niece
𡛔𡦫 (Bính·Chưt)- Great-Granddaughter
恪 (Búinh)- Other/Another/Further
𢚸 (Buit)- Soul/Mind/Heart/Feeling
佛 (But)- Buddha
穉ヌ (Đã·Đã)- Children (Collective Noun)
妬 (Đĩ)- There/That Place
𠇍 (Đỉt)- Some/Several
媄 (Đơ)- Mother/Mom
𠄩 (Đư)- Two
教師 (Gào·Ri)- Professor
戶 (Ghep)- They
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 20 Jul 2018 08:42, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

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All4Ɇn wrote:Irregular Indirect Objects
Similar to the irregular causatives, a small group of 15 nouns, pronouns and determiners form their indirect objects by lenition of /ɓ ɗ g/ to /β ð ɣ/
Spoiler:
Image
What exactly do you mean by this? Is it like dative case marking?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn »

Creyeditor wrote:What exactly do you mean by this? Is it like dative case marking?
In essence yes. They're written the same as any other indirect object form but drop the in pronunciation and replace it with the lenited form of the first consonant
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