Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
I'm not used to making languages that are so light on grammar and am not sure where I should go from what I have so far. Does anyone have any ideas?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
How about some syntactic constructions?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
What's happened to the remnants of morphology which made it into Proto-Chamic? Have they all been lost or are there relics still somewhere for you to show us?
If you've lost it all, it would be good to say so before giving syntactical constructions, as Creyeditor said.
If you've lost it all, it would be good to say so before giving syntactical constructions, as Creyeditor said.
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
There's still quite a bit of Proto-Chamic grammar elements brought in. The bigger problem is that Proto-Chamic on its own is pretty light on grammar. I could definitely go into verbs and prepositions/particles though. I can move into syntax from thereFrislander wrote:What's happened to the remnants of morphology which made it into Proto-Chamic? Have they all been lost or are there relics still somewhere for you to show us?
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 03 May 2017 20:32, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Verbs
Adjectives do not exist in Ởnh·Vú and work identical to verbs. A verb typically consists of an unchangeable root which is either preceded or followed by a particle which can change meaning of the verb. Verbs are never indicated for tense or mood
Particles:
庄 (Bè)- Marks the negative imperative. Placed directly after the verb
庄 (Bũ)...空 (Ỏ)- Negates non-imperative verb. Placed around the verb
𣗓 (Ca)...空 (Ỏ)- Means not yet. Placed around the verb
𠫾 (No)- Marks the positive imperative. Placed directly before the verb
咳 (Ich)- Marks the positive 1st person plural imperative. Placed directly before the verb
咳 (Ich)...空 (Ỏ)- Marks the negative 1st person plural imperative. Placed around the verb
被 (Đram)- Marks the passive voice. Placed directly before the verb
抷 (Pơ)- Marks the causative form. Placed directly before the verb
Irregular Causative
34 verbs form their causatives irregularly. For 32 of these verbs the causative is formed by leniting the beginning consonant /ɓ ɗ g/ to /β ð ɣ/ rather than using the particle Pơ. In writing this change is marked the same as a normal causative with the character 抷 which in this case is not pronounced. 抷 is one of only 2 characters that can be silent in some words.
Verbs With Lenited Causatives:
In addition to these there are 2 completely irregular causative forms:
固 (A)- There Be/To Have; Causative: Pa
罖 (Nãnh)- Be (Used with nouns); Causative: Sãnh
Adjectives do not exist in Ởnh·Vú and work identical to verbs. A verb typically consists of an unchangeable root which is either preceded or followed by a particle which can change meaning of the verb. Verbs are never indicated for tense or mood
Particles:
庄 (Bè)- Marks the negative imperative. Placed directly after the verb
庄 (Bũ)...空 (Ỏ)- Negates non-imperative verb. Placed around the verb
𣗓 (Ca)...空 (Ỏ)- Means not yet. Placed around the verb
𠫾 (No)- Marks the positive imperative. Placed directly before the verb
咳 (Ich)- Marks the positive 1st person plural imperative. Placed directly before the verb
咳 (Ich)...空 (Ỏ)- Marks the negative 1st person plural imperative. Placed around the verb
被 (Đram)- Marks the passive voice. Placed directly before the verb
抷 (Pơ)- Marks the causative form. Placed directly before the verb
Irregular Causative
34 verbs form their causatives irregularly. For 32 of these verbs the causative is formed by leniting the beginning consonant /ɓ ɗ g/ to /β ð ɣ/ rather than using the particle Pơ. In writing this change is marked the same as a normal causative with the character 抷 which in this case is not pronounced. 抷 is one of only 2 characters that can be silent in some words.
Verbs With Lenited Causatives:
Spoiler:
固 (A)- There Be/To Have; Causative: Pa
罖 (Nãnh)- Be (Used with nouns); Causative: Sãnh
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 21 Aug 2018 08:41, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Nice, especially the soft causative I have a few questions though:
- Can objects of transtive verbs be ommited?
- Is there a way to add objects to a verb, that normally only takes one?
- How can a temporal reference be given? By adverbs? Are there any other constructions?
- The same for sentence mood, modality and aspect
- Is there any kind of reduplication?
- Is there any kind of subject/object agreement? Can pronouns be reduced in some constructions (maybe to clitics)?
- Do verbs follow or precede their objects? Can the order be reversed in certain contexts?
- How many objects can a verb take?
- Are there any multi-verb-constructions? Are there constructions with auxilary verbs?
- Can the verb and its subject be inversed in any context?
- Are there verbs without a subject (e.g. 'to rain' maybe)?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Thanks! I appreciate all questions. Let me know if you have any othersCreyeditor wrote:Nice, especially the soft causative I have a few questions though
YepCreyeditor wrote:Can objects of transtive verbs be omitted?
Not sure entirely I understand the question. Do you mean how "and" works in a sentence like "I like dogs and cats"? If so then yes and it works much like how it does in EnglishCreyeditor wrote:Is there a way to add objects to a verb, that normally only takes one?
Solely through adverbs. There are no other methods. Modality however is expressed through modal verbs.Creyeditor wrote:How can a temporal reference be given? By adverbs? Are there any other constructions? The same for sentence mood, modality and aspect
Some single syllable words undergo reduplication to prevent being confused with other words (such as Ãc- Child; Ãc·Ãc- Crow) and few nouns may form collective plurals using it as well.Creyeditor wrote:Is there any kind of reduplication?
No but the idea of clitic pronouns sounds like it'd be pretty cool to add to this. Not sure how common that is in southeast Asia though.Creyeditor wrote:Is there any kind of subject/object agreement? Can pronouns be reduced in some constructions (maybe to clitics)?
Verbs precede their objects and the syntax is never changed.Creyeditor wrote:Do verbs follow or precede their objects? Can the order be reversed in certain contexts? Can the verb and its subject be inversed in any context?
Infinite I believe.Creyeditor wrote:How many objects can a verb take?
Verbs can be linked with the aid of a particleCreyeditor wrote:Are there any multi-verb-constructions?
Modal verbs as well as arguably some verb prefixes (such as those for making comparatives/superlatives)Creyeditor wrote:Are there constructions with auxilary verbs?
Impersonal verbs do not take a subject.Creyeditor wrote:Are there verbs without a subject (e.g. 'to rain' maybe)?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
This sounds a bit odd to me, given the topic-prominent syntax of all the other languages of the area, including Vietnamese and Chinese.All4Ɇn wrote:Verbs precede their objects and the syntax is never changed.Creyeditor wrote:Do verbs follow or precede their objects? Can the order be reversed in certain contexts? Can the verb and its subject be inversed in any context?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Thank you for your answers, I can't wait to see more detailed descriptions at some later point.
Ich fahre (auf der Straße).
I drive on the.DAT street
I drive on the street.
Ich be-fahre die Straße.
I APPL-drive DEF.ACC.F street
I drive on the street.
*Ich befahre.
I APPL-drive
I drive.
In the first example you do not need an object because the verb is intransitive and the 'street' is just a location expressed by some adverbial-like construction. In the second example on the other hand the 'street' has become a proper object that cannot be omitted (see third example) and gets accusative case. I know that some language (Mandarin Chinese, I think) have periphrastic constructions to make a verb take more objects than it usually does.
Some clarification: I was thinking about applicative like constructions. Here is some not-too-bad example from German.All4Ɇn wrote:Not sure entirely I understand the question. Do you mean how "and" works in a sentence like "I like dogs and cats"? If so then yes and it works much like how it does in EnglishCreyeditor wrote:Is there a way to add objects to a verb, that normally only takes one?Infinite I believe.Creyeditor wrote:How many objects can a verb take?
Ich fahre (auf der Straße).
I drive on the.DAT street
I drive on the street.
Ich be-fahre die Straße.
I APPL-drive DEF.ACC.F street
I drive on the street.
*Ich befahre.
I APPL-drive
I drive.
In the first example you do not need an object because the verb is intransitive and the 'street' is just a location expressed by some adverbial-like construction. In the second example on the other hand the 'street' has become a proper object that cannot be omitted (see third example) and gets accusative case. I know that some language (Mandarin Chinese, I think) have periphrastic constructions to make a verb take more objects than it usually does.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
There are topic-like particles in the grammar but syntax isn't changed to compensate for them unless its an adverb.Frislander wrote:This sounds a bit odd to me, given the topic-prominent syntax of all the other languages of the area, including Vietnamese and Chinese.
Ah I think I see what you're saying. As objects can be omitted situations like this don't typically happen. With Mandarin afaik a verb that takes 2 objects use two that are in some one way related to each other. Ởnh·Vú would use possession in this case and can only take one direct object without the use of a conjunctionCreyeditor wrote:In the first example you do not need an object because the verb is intransitive and the 'street' is just a location expressed by some adverbial-like construction. In the second example on the other hand the 'street' has become a proper object that cannot be omitted (see third example) and gets accusative case. I know that some language (Mandarin Chinese, I think) have periphrastic constructions to make a verb take more objects than it usually does.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Okay, thank you for the info. If verbs are linked by a particle, can both have an object of their own. Can they also have a subject of their own?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Not in that case. If they have different subjects or objects they'd take a conjunction insteadCreyeditor wrote:Okay, thank you for the info. If verbs are linked by a particle, can both have an object of their own. Can they also have a subject of their own?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Wow, that was a great conversation
I don't usually see someone answering that fast over here.
I don't usually see someone answering that fast over here.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Thanks . Given all the different time zones on this board I find myself doing the same thing sometimesCreyeditor wrote:Wow, that was a great conversation
I don't usually see someone answering that fast over here.
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Given the amount of time it takes for me to take a screenshot of each individual character, I was wondering how you guys would feel about me taking pictures for each entire post instead. That'll also make it a lot easier to post sample sentences.
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
You should, of course, do what's easiest for you. We'll manage.
☯ 道可道,非常道
☯ 名可名,非常名
☯ 名可名,非常名
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
If it sorts out the distracting disparity in character sizes, I can't say I oppose it.
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Let me know what you guys think of the formatting
Prepositions
𤲂 (Ã)- Below/Under/At The Bottom
𨕭 (Ả)- Above/On/On Top Of
行 (Ánh)- Through/Across/By
头 (Áo)- To/Towards
𠓀 (Ãp)- Before
𠓀梗 (Ãp·Khã)- In Front Of
朱 (Cơ)- To/For (Indirect Object)
於 (Đi)- At/In/With (Instrumental)
於在 (Đi·Mơnh)- (In Order) To/So That
*自 (Đì)- Since/Until/From
𥪝 (Đrãm)- In/Inside/Within
梗 (Gã)- Next To/Beside
𧵆 (Gè)- Near/Almost/Close To
耒 (Húy)- After
𧶮 (Mờ)- Of (Indicates Possession) (If preceded by a noun and counter means one like red one)
在 (Mơnh)- From/Because Of/By (Passive Voice)
唄 (Nanh)- With
外 (Nio)- Out/Outside
空 (Ỏ)- Without
**𠌨 (Pá)- To/Into/Towards
遶 (Tuy)- According To
除 (Sả)- Except For/Aside From/Apart From/Besides
賴 (Yo)- Despite/Contrary/In Spite Of
Usage note:
*自 usually means since/until but is also used to express from a to b, from a till b, and a to b (such as in 8 to 10 days), all of which would be expressed as 自a自b
**𠌨 is only used for indicating movement towards a vague concept rather than something concrete. Some common words encountered with it are directions (left, straight, north etc.) and periods of time (past, future, etc.)
Irregular Indirect Objects
Similar to the irregular causatives, a small group of 18 nouns, pronouns and determiners form their indirect objects by lenition of /ɓ ɗ g/ to /β ð ɣ/
Prepositions
𤲂 (Ã)- Below/Under/At The Bottom
𨕭 (Ả)- Above/On/On Top Of
行 (Ánh)- Through/Across/By
头 (Áo)- To/Towards
𠓀 (Ãp)- Before
𠓀梗 (Ãp·Khã)- In Front Of
朱 (Cơ)- To/For (Indirect Object)
於 (Đi)- At/In/With (Instrumental)
於在 (Đi·Mơnh)- (In Order) To/So That
*自 (Đì)- Since/Until/From
𥪝 (Đrãm)- In/Inside/Within
梗 (Gã)- Next To/Beside
𧵆 (Gè)- Near/Almost/Close To
耒 (Húy)- After
𧶮 (Mờ)- Of (Indicates Possession) (If preceded by a noun and counter means one like red one)
在 (Mơnh)- From/Because Of/By (Passive Voice)
唄 (Nanh)- With
外 (Nio)- Out/Outside
空 (Ỏ)- Without
**𠌨 (Pá)- To/Into/Towards
遶 (Tuy)- According To
除 (Sả)- Except For/Aside From/Apart From/Besides
賴 (Yo)- Despite/Contrary/In Spite Of
Usage note:
*自 usually means since/until but is also used to express from a to b, from a till b, and a to b (such as in 8 to 10 days), all of which would be expressed as 自a自b
**𠌨 is only used for indicating movement towards a vague concept rather than something concrete. Some common words encountered with it are directions (left, straight, north etc.) and periods of time (past, future, etc.)
Irregular Indirect Objects
Similar to the irregular causatives, a small group of 18 nouns, pronouns and determiners form their indirect objects by lenition of /ɓ ɗ g/ to /β ð ɣ/
Spoiler:
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 20 Jul 2018 08:42, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
What exactly do you mean by this? Is it like dative case marking?All4Ɇn wrote:Irregular Indirect Objects
Similar to the irregular causatives, a small group of 15 nouns, pronouns and determiners form their indirect objects by lenition of /ɓ ɗ g/ to /β ð ɣ/Spoiler:
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
In essence yes. They're written the same as any other indirect object form but drop the 朱 in pronunciation and replace it with the lenited form of the first consonantCreyeditor wrote:What exactly do you mean by this? Is it like dative case marking?