Atlas: new auxlang

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Xing
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Xing »

Rodiniye wrote:
Different vowels is similar sounds to you? Especially when we are talking about vowels with very different sounds?
Yes, if two words are distinct only by a single vowel – especially an unstressed one – the are very similar, and might easily get confused in a noisy environment. The same is true, for example, with pairs of words like [neʧi] and [neʨi] – that differ only at one point in the shape of the tongue. Whether two sounds are similar or "very different" depends on your linguistic background. Some people might find unstressed and [o] very similar, and might tend either to merge them or mix them up. Others might fund various post-alveolar fricatives difficult to tell apart, etc.

It's not necessarily a problem that languages have lots of similar-sounding words. In fact, natural languages often have lots of identically-sounding words – homophones – and this is rarely a problem. The fact is, we don't grasp words by hearing the phonemes one by one, and then putting them together. Rather, we fill in quite a lot from the surrounding context – both the linguistic context, and the extra-linguistic (pragmatic) context.

That the same word might belong to several different parts of speech, need not be any problem. Even if there is no overt change in the form of the word. This is frequently the case in English, where the same word can be a noun and/or a verb and/or an adjective and/or possibly also an adverb or something else. This is usually not a problem because the syntactic behaviour of nouns, adjectives and verbs are usually very different, and one can often easily tell from the syntactic environment whether a word is a noun, verb, adjective or something else. There hardly any need to make use of Esperanto-ish rules like "every noun ends in this vowel, every verb ends in that vowel". One could of course, if one liked to, but the absence of such rules does hardly pose any problems.

Agreement patterns may also help to tell near-identical words apart. Word with different genders might be distinguished only by a single letter. Or they may even be identical. But they trigger different forms of agreement – accompanying adjectives, articles, determiners, verbs, etc. may take different forms depending on the gender or the nouns, and this helps us to understand the utterance correctly.

And finally, the general, non-linguistic context may of course frequently be of great importance. If two similar-sounding – or even homophonic – words are likely to be used in very different contexts, the risk of confusion is small. If, on the other hand, two near-identical words are likely to be used in the same context, the risk for confusion is greater. Say that, in language X, the same verb root could be used to form nouns indicating agent, instrument, patient or result etc. of an action, by simply changing a single sound at the end. Then there might be a risk for confusion. Of course, the only way to know for sure would be to foster a community of people speaking language X, and see whether they would often confuse the derived nouns. Maybe they would, maybe they would not.


I'm not against the notion of an international auxlang per se, though I'm critical of the naïveté that seems to lie behind many auxlang projects. I really hope you understand that 20 pages is nowhere near a "complete grammar". There's a *lot* more needed. (And as I look through the last few pages, I can see that there are still questions that hasn't been answered.)
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye »

Yes, if two words are distinct only by a single vowel – especially an unstressed one – the are very similar,
Again, there is no reason to think that with the 5 vowels in Atlas. Same example, Spanish and Italian use them at the end of the sentence and there is no confussion. The example you provided is totally different, it is a VERY similar sound. In 30 years as Spanish native speaker, never had a confussion or heard about someone confusing the masculine and the feminine.
I really hope you understand that 20 pages is nowhere near a "complete grammar". There's a *lot* more needed.
A bit more, not too much. I need to correct a few things, add some more examples and a bit more practice. That is it.

Go to the grammar, and apart from examples, tell me what's not explained. I am translating texts and the grammar found in there is enough. This is not a challange, it would be a great help. Having said this, I know that a bit more on numbers, hours, examples with particles, greetings and a bit with word formation needs to be added.

Grammar books are usually long because there are full of exceptions and different structures. When you have no exceptions and simple structures, you get short grammars (as I said, a bit more needs to be added, but I am sure it will not get over 30 pages or so - depending on the number of exercises I add as well).

And just to be clear, there are a few things that will evolve with the language itself. A bit on phonetics maybe, like sound changes. I am not keen on writing about that because that is something that evolves naturally. As I said, I am expecting people to use /z/ in some words instead of /s/ for instance, but that is not something I want to make a rule of. It is something that it might appear and if so, it will be described in a (much) later stage.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Xing »

Rodiniye wrote:
Again, there is no reason to think that with the 5 vowels in Atlas. Same example, Spanish and Italian use them at the end of the sentence and there is no confussion. The example you provided is totally different, it is a VERY similar sound. In 30 years as Spanish native speaker, never had a confussion or heard about someone confusing the masculine and the feminine.
Which sounds that appears "very similar" is to a large extent language-dependent. Do you *really* think, that just because *you* happen to be familiar with a Romance five-vowel system, everybody on the planet finds it equally easy to distinguish those cardinal vowels? (For instance, many Swedish speakers might confuse or merge unstressed /o/ and /u/.)

But the important thing is not that people might not be able to distinguish /a e i o u/ when spoken clearly in isolation. Rather, it's that – in a normal conversation – we don't hear every single sound. If we hear a word [bedo], it's not that we first here a , then an [e], then a [d], and then an [o], and that we then finally put these sounds together and infer that the word [bedo] has been spoken. Rather, we fill in a whole lot from the context. It's the same with you – even if you claim that you "never" has "misheard" a word for ~30 years. You don't hear every single vowel every time. Rather, you – like everybody else – are able to guess from the context which word has been spoken.
A bit more, not too much. I need to correct a few things, add some more examples and a bit more practice. That is it.

Go to the grammar, and apart from examples, tell me what's not explained.



This whole thread is full of suggestions of things left out. You have discussed some of them, but not all of them.

For instance, I would like to see a detailed discussion on how the reflexive pronoun(s) work, with examples of situations where they can and cannot be used.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye »

Working on the new things* plus a bigish translation (Lamb to the Slaughter). Hopefully should have everything by mid-end of next week. I am super busy at work at the moment [:'(]

@Xing I still remember what you said about pronouns etc, everything will be included in the grammar update. But if you see anything else you would like to see in there let me know.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by lsd »

I really hope you understand that 20 pages is nowhere near a "complete grammar". There's a *lot* more needed.
Descriptive grammar has no end...
Not so sure prescriptive grammar needs so... to let some place to speakers...
(maybe a difference between artlangs which simulate real language withe fake descriptive grammar and auxlangs which need to be used as a real language with smallest presciptive grammar...)
Esperanto began with no more... (and it's now a real language..( perhaps the only conlang to be so...))
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye »

New entry!

http://atlas-language.blogspot.com.es/2 ... -less.html

This time I have translated "lamb to the slaughter", from Roald Dahl. You can find the translated text in there.

See as well how, even if Atlas is only using 500ish roots, the final result is shorter and uses less space than English and Spanish for instance.... which I found very interesting. Comments on that in the blog too.

Grammar and dictionary updated too, although more updates will follow.

Thank you!!
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by shanoxilt »

Rodiniye wrote: You have as well a video in order to see how Atlas sounds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QNAX0h ... load_owner
It sounds vaguely German, which I wouldn't have expected.

If you are serious about promoting your language, then you'll need to network with the posters on the Auxiliary Language Listserv. The creator of Pandunia can give you some tips on how to deal with international vocabulary.
Click here to join the Common Honey server. Or click here for a general glossopoeia server.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Axiem »

Rodiniye wrote:the final result is shorter and uses less space than English and Spanish for instance
This feels like a bug, not a feature. The more "efficient" you are within a language, the more catastrophic partial communication becomes to the intended message. That extra redundancy is useful over a staticky CB.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye »

shanoxilt wrote:
Rodiniye wrote: You have as well a video in order to see how Atlas sounds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QNAX0h ... load_owner
It sounds vaguely German, which I wouldn't have expected.

If you are serious about promoting your language, then you'll need to network with the posters on the Auxiliary Language Listserv. The creator of Pandunia can give you some tips on how to deal with international vocabulary.
Can you give me some more tips on that? I have tried before that page and did not manage. PM me if you like. Thanks! [:D]

Edit: I was not speaking about the same thing, process started, thanks!
Last edited by Rodiniye on 11 Jul 2017 20:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Xing »

I can see that you've updated the section on prepositions. You seem to make a big point that your prepositions "have only one meaning". Yet, even if your prepositional inventory is approaching kitchen-sinkyness, there seems to be a whole lot of ambiguity. You conflate meanings that in many natural languages are expressed by different adpositions and/or cases:

"Sur" can – supposedly, mean both "on" and "above". Yet theses are two different meanings. (Is something resting on/in direct contact with a surface, or at some height over the surface?)

"Around" is polysemous. It can refer to location ("I have a chain around my neck"), or movement ("the boy ran around the house"). Yet these meanings are covered by the same preposition in you language. The same is the case for many of your other prepositions – "along (ite)", "below (qu)", "behind (det)", and some others – they can refer to either location or movement.

Some kinds of locations seem to lack prepositions in your language. How do you express that something is attached to a vertical surface? ("The painting is hanging on the wall", or possibly, "the man was leaning against the tree"?). Or if something is attached to a horizontal surface, without being "on" or "above" it (such as something "hanging from the ceiling"? Or perhaps, "hanging on a branch"?)


Various other comments


As for the reflexive pronouns:

"Reflexive and reciprocal pronouns are only used when the subject and the object of the sentence are the same"

Does this mean that reflexives can only appear in direct object position? Or can various prepositional/oblique objects also be expressed by the reflexive pronouns, if they refer to the same thing as the subject in the sentence? Must the subject and the object be in the same clause, or can the reflexive pronoun have a subject antecedent in an earlier clause?

As for pronouns in general:

Are they obligatory, or can they be left out in some situations, when the referents are clear? If the latter is the case, in which situations can they be left out, and in which situations must they be retained?

Irregular ending:

"Lastly, roots ending in –u (as dibu), when adding another –u, transform that last –u in –c, so from root dibu, we get dibuc (drawing)."

Why this irregularity? Why not accept a form like <dubuu>? (You seem to allow double vowels elsewhere...???)

Plural nouns

Could you explain more how the plural is used? Don't say just "when there's more than one of something", because different languages may have different views on whether something is "one" or "many". What about groups of people? The hair on my head? A chest of drawers? A pair of trousers? The walls of a house? The furniture in my room?
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye »

First of all thanks for your comments.

Prepositions, you might see a lot of them, but they are necessary. I have just been having a look at another auxlang project and it is funny because it starts the preposition section saying: X language only has 3 prepositions....

Great!

To then add... oh... if you want to specify the meaning, then add this other two hundred of words next to them.

So... you cannot get away without them. If somebody says otherwise to you they are not telling the truth. I could have said oh, Atlas only has 1 preposition! great! but then with other 200 additions to them that make them very complicated when you study them in depth. That is misleading. Having to study 3 prepositions with 494 different uses and additions and cases is not easy. Atlas has less prepositions than natural languages, and with clear meanings. That makes things easier in the long run for learners (as I said, could have done the trick, but I would not be telling the truth or I would have not created a real language).
"Sur" can – supposedly, mean both "on" and "above"
Yes, for these prepositions, if you want to specify that it is touching the surface, you add a suffix. It will be updated in the next grammar update.
Around" is polysemous.
I see location or movement as location only. There are complements of place but not of movement, as far as I am concerned. The only preposition indicating movement specifically is "zu" (to)
Some kinds of locations seem to lack prepositions
I forgot the "against"! silly me. All the others, I am trying to simplify as much as possible within reason (and as I said, without lying to people and say that I have 3 prepositions - but 4050 additions). I think a similar meaning can be expressed by "sur" in your examples.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye »

So... some news and changes!!

I finally surrendered :roll: and we have simplified prepositions... their number is now cut down and we have now less than half prepositions than before, with multiple meanings. So now yes, "hou" means after, behind.... in location and time. That was a request made by many people, and I have now accepted that it is the best way to do it [tick]

So you can see the changes in the grammar book, but I will post them too in the next post.

[grammar book here: http://atlas-language.blogspot.com.es/p ... ammar.html]

[from page 11]

Other changes apart from prepositions:
- correlatives simplified: one ending only.
- demonstratives simplified: no distinction for word category.
- Now more exercises and their answers!

Apart from that, dictionary has been updated and it is now clearer to read derived words.

Hope you like these changes... they really make Atlas easier I believe, and prepositions have been really cut down to a minimum.
Last edited by Rodiniye on 17 Jul 2017 21:51, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye »

New prepositions in Atlas: prepositions simplified

[see post above]

Any comments much appreciated.

I am still thinking on how expressing "along" and "across", so any hints will be welcome.

---

In Atlas, every verb complement (except for the subject and the direct object) takes a preposition. The subject is always placed in front of the verb, and the DO is placed behind. Therefore there is no need for a preposition in order to mark their function within the sentence. Main prepositions are:
• i [location, place]:
Wi zaias i al-xekbaxu – I am at school
Dien zaias i Sidni? – are you in Sidney?

• u [time]:
Wi beanxiet u 1967 – I was born in 1967.
Al-zeleben eset u ekmese – The celebration were in January.
Wi visez di u sandine – I will see you on Wednesday.
Ze kommet u letzi wike – He-she came last week.

• o [quantity]
Ze axtet o 8kg – She-he bought 8kg.

• e [situation, event, activity]
Ze zaiat i Milano e drolzaite – She-he was in Milan in a party
Ze zaias e al-gerbaxu – She-he was in hospital

Pay attention to the first sentence. In other languages, we would have two complements of location. However, they are not. The first one is expressing the location, but the second one is expressing an event or situation, happening at that location (a party).
In the second sentence, “e” is used instead of “i”. The use of “i” (location) would not have further connotations other than expressing that someone is there, but without saying doing what. Using “e” (activity) means that the subject is doing something in there. In this case, “Ze” (subject) is under treatment, whereas with “i” he/she could be visiting. Same, for instance, would happen if the subject was in school. The use of “e” would emphasize that the subject is a student in there, whereas “i” would probably mean he/she is passing by or visiting only.

• w [manner, way, role, profession]
Qing, di zedues ez w wi dizet – Please, do it as I said.
Al-baitu esas w nirmane – the house is under construction.
Ze kaqis w oxa – she-he works as a teacher [rol, profession]
The majority of the rest of prepositions can have multiple meanings depending on their context.
In order to avoid ambiguity, when/if needed (only), one of the five prepositions above can be added in front of it separated by a (-) sign, in order to specify the meaning:

zeen kommet hou ze – They came after him-her [after in time? were they behind?]
zeen kommet i-hou ze – They came after him-her [location, behind]
zeen kommet u-hou ze – They came after him-her [time]
• vo [in front, before]
Ze lasset al-veturu vo al-direbo – He left the car in front of the tree.
qing, di zekommez vo 7 dian – please, come before 7 o’clock.

• hou [behind, after]
nai, wi haiek kommez hou 8 dian dax – No, I can only come after 8.
robba zaiet hou al-baitu – a thief was behind the house.

• sei [on, on top, above, reference]
al-vliegu vliegat sei al-zitu – the aircraft was flying above the city
Sei al-tatize… - in reference to the problem…

• qu [below]
wien passat qu al-abpassu – we were passing under the bridge
When all the previous 4 prepositions have implicit in their meaning that the object is touching a surface, then an “-n” is added to the preposition:

Al-vliegu vliegat sei al-zitu – The aircraft was flying above the city.
Al-vliegu vitat sein al-vliegdruku – The aircraft was speeding up on the runway.

• v [opposition, confrontation]:
Wi quget v qugzue de di – I played against your team

• zu [direction, benefactor, indirect object]
Wi datzes al-kitabu zu Peter – I give the book to Peter.
Wien vesas zu Moskoba – We are going to Moscow.

• ot [origin]
Mchumba kommas ot al-vindu – Mchumba is coming from the shop.
Al-kitabu ot Markus – The book given by Markus.

• der [close, near, around]
al-vragzuen esez der 4 – the interviews will be around 4.
Ze axtet bai 8kg – She-he bought more or less 8kg.

• vai [far, far away]
Al-vligbaxu zaiis vai al-zitu – The airport is far from the city.

• s [around]
Tao widas s al-binu – Tao is driving around the building

• tra [between, amongst, cooperation]
al-serpa zaiet tra di ta wi – The snake was between you and me.

• li [inside, inclusion, during, while]
Wi zaias li al-baitu – I am inside the house
Wi kaqat li di dormat – I was working while you were sleeping.
Wien vesez i ce, li di – We will go there, including you.

• wei [outside, exclusion]
Aisha varat wei al-vindu – Aisha was waiting outside the shop.
Dien vesez i ce wei zeer – You will go there except for him.

• em [company, addition]:
Di kommez em wi? – Will you come with me?

• z [without]:
Wi nai vules de vese z di – I don’t want to go without you

• ki [cause, because]
Wi duet ez ki di – I did it because of you.

• cin [consequence, in order to]
Ze duet ez cin tike skuse – He-she did it in order to apologize

• ei [result]
Ze bedaket ei more – she-he was hit until death/he-she died [showing result]

• an [on, activate]
Dukar al-luzun esas an – All lights are on.

• za [off, deactivate]
al-anwidu eset za – The engine was off.

Prepositions with single letters are pronounced as the letter itself. For instance, “s” is pronounced /se/.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Lao Kou »

Lots of assumptions made here, which may feel intuitive or obvious to you, but which may bewilder others. To wit:
• i [location, place]:
i al-xekbaxu – at school
but
• e [situation, event, activity]
e al-gerbaxu – in hospital
In what ways are these different? Why aren't both phrases "i" or both "e"? Being hospitalized is an "event" but being educated isn't ?

Oh, I see:
The use of “i” (location) would not have further connotations other than expressing that someone is there, but without saying doing what. Using “e” (activity) means that the subject is doing something in there. In this case, “Ze” (subject) is under treatment, whereas with “i” he/she could be visiting. Same, for instance, would happen if the subject was in school. The use of “e” would emphasize that the subject is a student in there, whereas “i” would probably mean he/she is passing by or visiting only.
This seems akin to a に ni/で de distinction à la japonaise, but the vibe is slightly different, which means I'd just have to learn it (and my monoglot mother wouldn't even have the Japanese analogy to grab on to).
• o [quantity]
Ze axtet o 8kg – She-he bought 8kg.
Why can't 8kg just be a direct object in this sentence? Or if "o" is an obligatory quantity marker, why isn't there a pronoun like French "en" or Italian "ne" to express "of it/them"? And "8kg of potatoes", how do we do this?
• hou [behind, after]
A nod to Chinese? This doesn't make Atlas any easier for Chinese speakers, nor make the language any more international 'cause you threw them a bone.
• tra [between, amongst, cooperation]
Would that be Italian? I feel so international.
• li [inside, inclusion, during, while]
Some more Chinese? Why, they'll be queuing up to learn this.
• wei [outside, exclusion]
I can't go to your blogspot for pronunciation, but this also looks like a nod to Chinese.
• an [on, activate]
Dukar al-luzun esas an – All lights are on.

• za [off, deactivate]
al-anwidu eset za – The engine was off.
Surely you realize that these usages are not prepositional, and are very Englishy, if not Germanicky)

I don't find this easy or intuitive at all, and as quirky as the natlangs with any international currency, so why not just learn English, French, Spanish, Chinese, Esperanto, or whatevs, and have done with it? I fear you're in the same place you were before with your previous project, Rodinian: call it an artlang or a "thought experiment" and let it flourish; call it an auxlang and let it be subject to a plethora of critiques, because this type of experimentation has all been done before, with rather limited success and endless, fractious, pointless, internecine battling -- not to mention the challenges of promoting it in the first place. I don't mean to be harsh, but you're not going to become a latter-day Zamenhof or Schleyer with this project.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye »

In what ways are these different? Why aren't both phrases "i" or both "e"? Being hospitalized is an "event" but being educated isn't ?
That is the point. In:

i al-xekbaxu - it does not specify whether you are studying or not, actually one would understand that you are passing by, or maybe picking somebody up.

e al-xekbaxu - it would mean that you are studying in there.

Or:

i al-vligbaxu - "at the airport", you are picking somebody up.

e al-vligbaxu - you are flying or maybe you work in there.

Or:

i al-gerbaxu - "in the hospital", visiting, passing by...

e al-gerbaxu - "at hospital", receiving treatment...

I think English does something similar with "at/in".

There is nothing more to learn really. if you are in a place doing something in there related to that place, use "e". If not or do not want to specify, "i".
Why can't 8kg just be a direct object in this sentence? Or if "o" is an obligatory quantity marker, why isn't there a pronoun like French "en" or Italian "ne" to express "of it/them"? And "8kg of potatoes", how do we do this?
Because in an ideal grammar it would not be Direct Object. How do you do the question?

- *What do you want? 8kg
- How much do you want? 8kg

So there you go, it is the second one. Even if English for instance treats it as DO in affirmative sentences, it is not really. In Atlas:

- Di vules o ven? - you are asking for quantity.
- Di vules venu? - you are asking for something (DO).
A nod to Chinese?
Yes, there are a few prepositions taken from different languages, same as the roots. It is not a secret. You have all the roots and the languages you are coming from in the dictionary.

There are a couple, however, that you got wrong. I did not take "li" from Chinese for instance.
Surely you realize that these usages are not prepositional, and are very Englishy, if not Germanicky)
Yes, but they are very useful for word formation. I am not English myself either, so it is not something that I have inside me, it is something which has been thought about.
I don't find this easy or intuitive at all, and as quirky as the natlangs with any international currency
Of course, 26 pages of grammar with practice and everything and 500 roots is the same as natlangs. Prepositions alone are approximately 1/3.
I don't mean to be harsh, but you're not going to become a latter-day Zamenhof or Schleyer with this project.
I do not want to become anyone. I have had success in my professional life and this is not "for me". I do this because I believe in it. I do not even share any information about myself in the blog whatsoever. "Atlas" is the important thing, and I would actually be more than happy to join forces with others as long as it is the good thing for Atlas. I do not want any credit.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Lao Kou »

Spoiler:
i al-gerbaxu - "in the hospital", visiting, passing by...

e al-gerbaxu - "at hospital", receiving treatment...

There is nothing more to learn really. if you are in a place doing something in there related to that place, use "e". If not or do not want to specify, "i".
Interesting, but why would an auxlang feel it necessary to make this distinction?
I think English does something similar with "at/in".
There may be examples in English which bear this observation out, but as a native speaker of English, I don't feel that this is the litmus test for this type of distinction, if such a distinction even exists.

We're in the schoolyard.
We're playing in the schoolyard.

Who cares? Some languages do, some don't. Why does Atlas care? Does it facilitate communication?
Because in an ideal grammar it would not be Direct Object.
What, pray tell, is an "ideal grammar"?
Spoiler:
- *What do you want? 8kg
- How much do you want? 8kg

So there you go, it is the second one. Even if English for instance treats it as DO in affirmative sentences, it is not really. In Atlas:

- Di vules o ven? - you are asking for quantity.
- Di vules venu? - you are asking for something (DO).
Okay, point taken. But how to deal with:

A - How many apples are on the table?
B - There are five, but I only want three (of them).
A nod to Chinese?
Yes, there are a few prepositions taken from different languages, same as the roots. It is not a secret. You have all the roots and the languages you are coming from in the dictionary.
Well, I certainly don't think you're trying to keep the roots a secret, as that would defeat your purpose.
There are a couple, however, that you got wrong. I did not take "li" from Chinese for instance.
Mea culpa. I guess other Atlas speakers will either just have to learn it or find other mnemonic devices.
Me wrote:Surely you realize that these usages are not prepositional, and are very Englishy, if not Germanicky)
Yes, but they are very useful for word formation. I am not English myself either, so it is not something that I have inside me, it is something which has been thought about.
So why list them under "prepositions"? The relationship between "prepositions", certain "adverbs", and "particles" is an endless bone of contention in English; why drag that into an auxlang?
Of course, 26 pages of grammar with practice and everything and 500 roots is the same as natlangs. Prepositions alone are approximately 1/3.
So why would one ever learn this? Esperanto has the kumbaya, We-Are-The-World market, surely.
Me wrote:I don't mean to be harsh, but you're not going to become a latter-day Zamenhof or Schleyer with this project.
I do not want to become anyone. I have had success in my professional life and this is not "for me". I do this because I believe in it. I do not even share any information about myself in the blog whatsoever. "Atlas" is the important thing, and I would actually be more than happy to join forces with others as long as it is the good thing for Atlas. I do not want any credit.
If that came off harsh, I apologize. I do not get the vibe that you're a megalomaniac who needs to inscribe a name on history. From what I've read about Zamenhof, he was a pretty self-effacing guy; Schleyer? hard to say. But I don't think the project you're proposing is really going to move us in any way closer toward an IAL that hasn't already been attempted.

I mean. C'mon! I studied Esperanto in good faith. But one keeps moving the goalposts, how much neverevending international linguistic goodwill can you expect to tap into? This isn't like cellphones or apps (an auxlang mindset before cellphones or apps), if you actually want to speak a lang with teeth, you have to learn it, and its not just icecream flavors.

In the way media works now, is this kind of discussion even relevant any more? aeromails (by air, how edgy)? letters from abroad (by land or sea)?

Even twelve seconds of bad Google translate gets you close to what 2 years of training would get you in Atlas.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
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Xing
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Xing »

Rodiniye wrote:
There is nothing more to learn really. if you are in a place doing something in there related to that place, use "e". If not or do not want to specify, "i".
This just begs the question of which activities are considered 'related' to a specific place. Suppose I'm in a shop. Should I use 'i' or 'e' if:

-I'm working in the shop?
–I'm there for a job interview?
–I'm delivering goods to the shop?
–I'm a crackpot trying to convince them to sell my new neon-coloured anti-chemtrail protection device?
-I'm buying something from the shop?
–I'm stealing something from the shop?
–I'm just looking at stuff, with no intent to buy?
–I'm looking at stuff, and haven't decided whether to buy anything or not?
–I'm talking with the owner? (business-related)
–I'm talking with the owner? (not business-related)
–I'm asking whether they've got any small change for the parking-meter outside?
–Etc.

These things might seem obvious to you, but they aren't obvious to me.

As for English 'in school' etc., I think this might primarily be an ambiguity in the word 'school' (or corresponding words in other expressions). It can refer to a school building, which I'm 'in' by being physically located there. It can also refer to a 'school' as an institution, which I'm 'in' by being enrolled in a course of study.

More generally, languages are full of idiomatic ways of saying things. It's not enough with a list of root words and some pages of grammar rules. How do you, for instance, ask what time it is? Do you say something like:

-"What hour is it?"
–"How much time has passed?"
–"How late is it"?
–"How many hours do we have?"
–"What is it struck?"
–"What does the hands show?"
–"How many hours is the clock?"
–"How high is the time?"
–"Which hour have we reached?"
–"How much is the clock?"
–"What is the clock?"
–Etc etc etc…

Or, how do you inquire about someone's age?

–"How old are you?"
–"What age are you?"
–"What age have you?"
–"At what age are you?"
–"How many years are there to you?"
–"How many years past your birth are we?"
–"How many years have you reached?"
–"What age have you come to?"
–"At which year in your life are you?"
–Etc etc etc…
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye »

Interesting, but why would an auxlang feel it necessary to make this distinction?
Because I think it is necessary to limit and establish a good definition for each verbal complement. I have always thought that the complement of location should be completely separated from the complement of situation/event. "I am in a party in London" has two different location complements ("in a party" - "in London"), which I think is not logical. It is the same for preposition "o". Could you get away thinking it is always related to a DO? Maybe. I just think it is not logical, and logic makes things easier in the long term.
A - How many apples are on the table?
B - There are five, but I only want three (of them).
Vi honas al-sebun sei al-mettmebelu o ven?
Vi honas o piat (5), ma wi haiek vules san (de zeen).

In Atlas it is a Complement of quantity.
So why list them under "prepositions"? The relationship between "prepositions", certain "adverbs", and "particles" is an endless bone of contention in English; why drag that into an auxlang?
You might be right, it might be a good think to include them in adverbs instead. I will give you that.
Even twelve seconds of bad Google translate gets you close to what 2 years of training would get you in Atlas.
Yes, and technology will maybe let you speak to somebody else with instant translations. Or not. Who knows. Google translate is good but it does not reach verbal communication, yet. It is impossible to predict. 50 years ago they probably thought that we would have the technology to do instant automatic interpretation, and they thought we would have flying cars too. I don't know, time will tell.
This just begs the question of which activities are considered 'related' to a specific place
Whenever you want to specify that you are there doing something related to the place, and not just passing by. "i" is the unmarked version. What is related to a shop? People go there normally to buy things, or maybe they work in there. In an airport? they can work or travel. In school? work or study...

There is no black or white. But we would all agree that stealing, breaking stuff or jumping on white goods is not something related to the place.

If you are just having a look but not buying? Well that is something quite normal in shops too. Having an interview? A bit borderline, but if somebody else knew that you were having that interview on that day, why not using "e" to specify that you are in that shop where the event is happening.

As I said, not black and white. And in any case, "i" is the unmarked version, so used in case of doubt.
More generally, languages are full of idiomatic ways of saying things. It's not enough with a list of root words and some pages of grammar rules. How do you, for instance, ask what time it is?
Even if some guidance will have to be established on this, I understand all the examples you provided, and many languages use two or more. So it is one of the things that I think you just need to let it evolve with the language. Same for the age examples you gave. An auxlang does not need rules for everything, and as I said with the time examples, all of them are quite understable.

All I would say is, try to keep it simple. I think that way you would construct a sentence which would be understandable for most of the target population.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Xing »

Rodiniye wrote: Whenever you want to specify that you are there doing something related to the place, and not just passing by. "i" is the unmarked version. What is related to a shop? People go there normally to buy things, or maybe they work in there. In an airport? they can work or travel. In school? work or study...

There is no black or white. But we would all agree that stealing, breaking stuff or jumping on white goods is not something related to the place.

If you are just having a look but not buying? Well that is something quite normal in shops too. Having an interview? A bit borderline, but if somebody else knew that you were having that interview on that day, why not using "e" to specify that you are in that shop where the event is happening.

As I said, not black and white. And in any case, "i" is the unmarked version, so used in case of doubt.
If I were a criminal, stealing stuff could well be what I would normally normally do in shops. But anyway, why would we even need separate prepositions for shoppers and shoplifters? Why do you feel such a strong desire to let your prepositions encode not only location, but at also what people are doing at that location. Not even English (maybe the most prepositions-heavy language in the world...) does that.

Even if some guidance will have to be established on this, I understand all the examples you provided, and many languages use two or more. So it is one of the things that I think you just need to let it evolve with the language. Same for the age examples you gave. An auxlang does not need rules for everything, and as I said with the time examples, all of them are quite understable.
If people evolve different conventionalised ways of saying things, misunderstandings will definitely occur at times. "How much is the clock" is a direct translation of the Swedish way of asking what time it is, but in English it's an enquiry about the price of a time-piece. You could argue that in many cases, such ambiguities could be resolved from the context. But it would still make communication much less efficient. Given that you seem to put great emphasis on logic and precision, it seems it would contradict your goals if you ended up with a language that would rely very much on context and the goodwill of the listener to work.

And if it's enough that an utterance is *understandable*, rather than idiomatic, we don't need a simple, easy-to-learn auxlang. I can speak Icelandic, using wrong inflections and screwing up syntax all the time (not to mention my foreign accent) – and people will still understand me most of the time. It might take a little extra time for me to express myself, and it might require more goodwill/cooperation from my listeners. But this would be how communication in Atlas (or any language) would work, if you only give people a bare minimum of grammatical instructions, with no guidance how to speak idiomatically.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Nachtuil »

To be honest Rodineye, even though I don't see myself ever learning your language, I hope you manage to get some traction with this project of yours. You've obviously put a lot of effort into it and I respect that.
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