Aelf's Scratchpad

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 940
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Ælfwine »

I encourage people who have an hour and want to learn more about the history of Norse colonization of Greenland (and Vinland) to watch this video.

To avoid confusion, I use the following terminology when discussing my conlang:

Greenlandic: Language of the Norse Greenlanders and their skraeling wives.
Kalaallisut: Language of the Inuit natives.

Greenlandic language:

Phonology:
Consonants:
/m n ŋ/
/p pʰ t tʰ kʰ/
/ts tsʰ/
/f (v) s (ɣ)/
/l (ɬ) r/
/w j/

Most consonants can be geminated. Geminated plosives can be pre-aspirated.

Vowels:
ɪ iː ʊ uː
ɛ eː ə øː ɔ oː
a aː

Diphthongs:
tbd

Other Information:
Word order is primarily SVO. Alignment is Nominative-Accusative. Head direction is initial.

Note that this is just me writing ideas down at the moment. Will update periodically. Please supply ideas!
Last edited by Ælfwine on 10 Jul 2017 00:10, edited 2 times in total.
My Blog

A-posteriori, alternative history nerd
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by qwed117 »

What happens to /æ/? I can imagine a wild variety of things occurring.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Creyeditor »

Ælfwine wrote:[...]
/p pʰ t tʰ kʰ q qʰ/[...]
Most consonants can be geminated. Geminated plosives are pre-aspirated.
Is the aspiration contrast neutralized in gemination yielding [ʰpp ʰpp ʰtt ʰtt ʰkk ʰqq ʰqq]? Or is does it yield a contrast between pre-aspirated and circum-aspirated plosives [ʰpp ʰppʰ ʰtt ʰttʰ ʰkkʰ ʰqq ʰqqʰ]? Another possibility would be a contrast between pre-aspirated and post-aspirated plosives [ʰpp ppʰ ʰtt ttʰ kkʰ ʰqq qqʰ], right?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 940
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Ælfwine »

qwed117 wrote:What happens to /æ/? I can imagine a wild variety of things occurring.
I'm thinking /æ/ might merge with /e/ while /æː/ might break to become a diphthong, somewhat like in Icelandic.
Creyeditor wrote:
Ælfwine wrote:[...]
/p pʰ t tʰ kʰ q qʰ/[...]
Most consonants can be geminated. Geminated plosives are pre-aspirated.
Is the aspiration contrast neutralized in gemination yielding [ʰpp ʰpp ʰtt ʰtt ʰkk ʰqq ʰqq]? Or is does it yield a contrast between pre-aspirated and circum-aspirated plosives [ʰpp ʰppʰ ʰtt ʰttʰ ʰkkʰ ʰqq ʰqqʰ]? Another possibility would be a contrast between pre-aspirated and post-aspirated plosives [ʰpp ppʰ ʰtt ttʰ kkʰ ʰqq qqʰ], right?
I'm sorry, I should have specified but geminated plosives have an aspiration contrast just like the other consonants. So [pp ʰpp tt ʰtt kk ʰkk qq ʰqq] from Ancient Norse /bb pp dd tt gg kk/ while /ɢɢ qq/ may be learned phonemes.

Anyway, I've been reading up on my creoles and narrowed my options for how I want to proceed; i.e. the level of creolization involved:
  • A pidgin or duel-source pidgin. I don't really want to do a simple trade pidgin, to be honest. Although some pidgins can be interesting (like Russenorsk), I'm imagining a scenario where the interaction between Norse and Inuit went further than trading, especially given the video's reasoning that part of the reason they didn't survive was due to their reluctance to adopt Inuit customs.
  • A creoloid or perhaps duel-source creoloid. Examples of this type are Copper Island Aleut, which has a mixture of qualities of both parent languages without as much simplification as other creoles. To me, this would be the most interesting conlanging, although I question which idea is most "realistic" given the scenario that the Norse found themselves in. As with many pidgins arising in the Arctic, the lexis would probably be Inuit, especially if the Norse did survive, the Inuit would be the ones with the power, not the Europeans. However, I could imagine an Inuit lexis with Norse style inflections.
  • A reverse creole, where a community gradually abandons their native language for a more dominate language, and the language shows signs of decay from underuse over time. This happened with the Norse spoken in the Shetland islands, and it is plausible it could happen here too, especially if I decide the Greenlanders survived but completely adopted Kalaallisut, like how many early European settlers abandoned living in "civilization" to live amongst the Amerindians. The language I'd make is essentially how it would have been like before its complete abandonment.
Unfortunately this board doesn't allow polls so I ask the peanut gallery what they would wish to see.
My Blog

A-posteriori, alternative history nerd
User avatar
Vlürch
greek
greek
Posts: 452
Joined: 09 Mar 2016 21:19
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Vlürch »

What about two creoles with the polar opposite features that developed concurrently, one used by the natives and one by the colonisers, that eventually merged?
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Creyeditor »

I find it really hard to vote on this, because I don't see/find it difficult to believe that the historical contact situation determines language structure/complexity.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 940
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Ælfwine »

Vlürch wrote:What about two creoles with the polar opposite features that developed concurrently, one used by the natives and one by the colonisers, that eventually merged?
Wouldn't it be more intuitive for them to agree on a language (pidgin) to speak then to speak reduced versions of their own languages until they merge? If I am understanding you correctly, that is.
Creyeditor wrote:I find it really hard to vote on this, because I don't see/find it difficult to believe that the historical contact situation determines language structure/complexity.
I'm not sure what you mean though. Surely a pidgin has a different level of complexity than a creole, which has a different level of complexity as a creolized language like Afrikaans, and that all three types arise from different contact situations?
My Blog

A-posteriori, alternative history nerd
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Creyeditor »

Ælfwine wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:I find it really hard to vote on this, because I don't see/find it difficult to believe that the historical contact situation determines language structure/complexity.
I'm not sure what you mean though. Surely a pidgin has a different level of complexity than a creole, which has a different level of complexity as a creolized language like Afrikaans, and that all three types arise from different contact situations?
Well, if level of complexity means rigid rules and less optionality than I guess you're right. Maybe this depends on the number of native speakers? I don't really know, I am not up to date with the newest research in pidgin and creoles. I just remembered my professor saying that the terms pidgin/creole were often used in the colonial context of contact situations, to make sure that people who are not really considered people also do not speak 'real' languages. I'm not sure if I agree with this, but complexity is surely not the primary reason for a contact situation in conlanging, IMHO.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
spanick
roman
roman
Posts: 1336
Joined: 11 May 2017 01:47
Location: California

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by spanick »

I like the second option personally. I wouldn't care as much about realism if it were more fun and the final product was to my liking.

I like what you have so far. I'll be following this.
Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 940
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Ælfwine »

Here are some ideas for phonology/sound changes from the parent languages to the creole

Changes from Kalaallisut to Greenlandic:

/q/ becomes /kʰ/
taleq → talek “arm” (/e/ and /o/ subsequently phonemize, especially as they are already phonemes in Old Norse).

/ʁ/ becomes /r/

Otherwise words are mostly preserved as they are.

Changes from Old Norse to Greenlandic:

An epithetic vowel is inserted between clusters with differing places of articulation (i.e. /dl/ is allowed, but not /hl/).
hlaupa → halaapa “to run” (also notice the change /au/ → /aː/)

When /s/ is followed by a stop, it is assimilated
hesta → hetta “horse”

Otherwise, /s/ is deleted, especially at the beginning of a word
skrá → karaa → kalaa “dried skin”

/t/ becomes /ts/ when preceding /i/ or /j/
átti → aattsi “eighth”

/j/ subsequently becomes assimilated
sitja → sitsa “to sit”
My Blog

A-posteriori, alternative history nerd
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Creyeditor »

Looks nice [:)]
Do the same changes apply to affixes and roots? And will that lead to words of wildly differing length based on their origin?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 940
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Ælfwine »

Creyeditor wrote:Looks nice [:)]
Do the same changes apply to affixes and roots? And will that lead to words of wildly differing length based on their origin?
I don't see why it wouldn't, there is nothing special about roots and affixes.

I am thinking that both compounding and redulplication would be productive processes in the conlang, and that yes, the changes would effect them.
My Blog

A-posteriori, alternative history nerd
Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 940
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Ælfwine »

Greenlandic has a rudimentary determiner, manna, corresponding to the same demonstrative in Kalaalisut.

E.g. Manna man "the (that, this) man"

The determiner is versatile, and can also take the role of a pronoun or possessive. Context is usually the only way to distinguish the meaning of manna.

Greenlandic employs partial reduplication of the root in order to mark number:

talek "arm" → talalek "arms"
man "man" → maman "men"
hetta "horse" → hettetta "horses"

etc...
My Blog

A-posteriori, alternative history nerd
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Creyeditor »

Is the reduplicant always a consonant and a vowel / a CV-template / a light syllable?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 940
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Ælfwine »

Creyeditor wrote:Is the reduplicant always a consonant and a vowel / a CV-template / a light syllable?
A light syllable, yes.

Now that you mention it, some of my forms are wrong. /hetta/ should be analyzed like /het.ta/, so perhaps it's duplicant form would be /het.et.ta/.

TBH I kind have wished I used the languages spoken in northern Labrador and Newfoundland (ala "Markland" and "Vinland" settlements) though 1.) there doesn't seem to be much attestation of Native Americans living in that part of North America during the medieval ages 2.) Beothuk, the language that was spoken in Newfoundland, has so little documentation that it would be difficult to use. I would have loved to say, preserve nasal vowels as some of those native languages have nasal vowels, or any of their other quirks as Kalaallisut is too minimalistic sometimes.

Also, regardless of which route I go next, I want to collapse the gender system of Old Norse into an animate/inanimate contrast.
My Blog

A-posteriori, alternative history nerd
Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 940
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Ælfwine »

I'm going to take a break from Old Norse for a bit (hooray) and work on an idea I shelved a while ago but I still want to explore it: A polysynthetic romlang.

Essentially what happens is that nouns start to become incorporated into the verb in the same way object pronouns may be. This could possibly happen through analogy. So the phrase "canem amo," or "I love the dog," might shorten to "canamo," glossed as dog-love-I (thanks to reddit for this example.)

I also want the language to have vowel harmony, because why the hell not.

As for location, I am quite undecided. It would have to be fairly isolated or on the fringes of the Roman empire for it to resist being more SAE in its grammar.
My Blog

A-posteriori, alternative history nerd
Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 940
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Ælfwine »

So my polysynthetic/polypersonal romlang is going to be tentatively called Erromanz. I've imagined it to be in the northeast of Spain and/or the southwest of France, similar to Basque, especially since the romlang is quite influenced by Aquitaine.

Jo t'ame [ʃtame] and notice like Basque and Spanish but unlike French there are only five vowels /a e i o u/, as well as a lack of a > ɛ vowel shift, but it does have (along with some varites of Spanish) frictivization of /ʎ j/ > /ʒ/ with devoicing before voiceless consonants.

Additionally, Erromanz has gained the phonemes /c ɟ/ from /gj/ and /kj/ (this is thought to be Basque influence once again.)

Finally, perhaps the least "realistic" of ideas would be an early on vocalization of /s/ and possibly preserve the neuter gender this way.

Masculine: PORTUS > portoj > porte "harbor"
Feminine: MANVS > manoj > mane "hand"

but

Neuter: BONUM > bonũ > bono "good"

Interestingly it seems like the masculine and feminine actually have a stronger tendency to decline alike this way. How this will influence the development of the conlang I have yet to explore.

The clitic stacking in Erromanz makes it much more French than I anticipated, which is why I guess I also wanted to see if i could preserve the Latin person marking. Maybe I'll play around with both and see what I like more. I figure if I am going to preserve the neuter via an early sound change affecting s# than adding another archaic feature won't hurt much.
My Blog

A-posteriori, alternative history nerd
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Creyeditor »

Do you already know where your /ts/ will come from?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 940
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Ælfwine »

Tbh I haven't a clue.

I might make a specific thread for my polysynth romlang. I'm still not sold on the location, but I feel like I'd be able to compose my thoughts better that way.
My Blog

A-posteriori, alternative history nerd
Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 940
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: Aelf's Scratchpad

Post by Ælfwine »

I'm no longer really pursuing polysynthesis for its own sake on my romlang. It's still something that would sound cool to do, but I have trouble justifying it. And second of all, since I got the book The Grammar of Romance I've learned to appreciate more of the intricacies of Romance grammar. At the moment I am trying to decide on a few phonological changes that might impact the grammar of my new romlang set around Lake Batalon in Hungary. Given the relative isolation from most Western dialects and potentially retaining archaic features (c.f. Dalmatian), I do have a great deal of freedom but I wish to somewhat respect the boundaries I am given as well.

Right now I am deciding whether I want to customize the grammar by introducing some sound shifts that would merge the masculine and feminine but preserve the neuter, and/or adopt Hungarian influence that would eliminate gender entirely. If I decide that this language is closely related to Dalmatian and adopt some changes associated with it, such as a lack of palatalization before /k/ as found in the toponym Keszthely, it may be more difficult to preserve a distinction in the gender after I syncope most word final vowels. Alternatively I could copy Romanian and palatalize all consonants after syncope, at least in the plural. I may try that and see where it leads me.

Also, one idea that Aero- gave me in the IRC was to preserve and fortify /j/ after consonants after syncope to something like /ç~ʝ/. The result of preserving /j/ after consonants is the fact that it preserves a class of nouns ending in -ius or -ium as -j. I haven't fully explored the consequences of this shift, but it is interesting nonetheless. To have a lot of words that end with -c, -r, or -j after consonants would definitely give an interesting flavor to the language.
My Blog

A-posteriori, alternative history nerd
Post Reply