Nexürsin

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Nachtuil
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Nexürsin

Post by Nachtuil »

Nexürsin /Nek͡xüɾsin/ (Edit: I changed it from Nexursin but not in all the previous posts)

This is a language I have been working on for a while. It is intended to be used by magic users in a fantasy style setting, some of whom may be necromancers. This will be a stub of a post and I'll add more things when I have time.

I am cursed by changing my mind all the time and am forever toying with changing the phonology but I am posting what I have so far. I created an old version of the phonology to try to justify what is probably an odd phonology. I regret t͡ʃ deeply, it shall be marginal going forward.

Old Nexursin
/m n/
/pʰ p b tʰ t d kʰ k g ʔ/
/t͡ʃʰ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/
/s z h/
/l r w/

/i e o u a/

Sound changes
/ʔ/ -> /q/ or /h/
/pʰ/ -> /ɸ/
/tʰ/ -> /t͡s/
/kʰ/ -> /k͡x/
/t͡ʃʰ/ -> /ʃ/
/b/ merged with /p/ to /p/
/d/ merged with /t/ to /t/
/g/ merged with /k/ to /k/
/z/ merged with /s/ to /s/
/t͡ʃ/ merged with /d͡ʒ/ to /t͡ʃ/
/w/ -> /ⱱ/
/r/ to /ɾ~ɹ/

/u/ and /o/ merged
/i e a u/ before ʔ become creaky voiced
/i e a u/ before voiced consonants become low toned.
Eventually the above sets merge to lower toned with creaky voice.
/i e a u/ elsewhere become high toned.

New Nexursin (Will be Middle if I develop something from it)
/m n/ <m n>
/p t k q/ <p t k q>
/t͡s t͡ʃ k͡x/ <z c x>
/ɸ s ʃ h/ <f s j h>
/ⱱ l ɾ~ɹ/ <v l r>

high tone:
/i e a u/ <i e a u>
low tone with creaky voice:
/i e a u/ <ï ë ä ü>

(Updates:
1. ʔ still exists between words and when vowels are adjacent due to suffixing but it is not phonemic.
2. /k͡x/ turns to /x/ intervocalicly in fast speech
3. Consonants may be geminate between vowels in words. /sassu/ was permissible before but now /kakku/ is as well)

Phonotactics
(C) V (N)
C: Any consonant.
V: Any vowel (should two vowels ever come into direct contact an /h/ is inserted.
N: Any nasal, fricative or approximate.

(Update: Adjacent consonants are both articulated if indicated in orthography "Assa" = "As+sa" not "Asa")

Noun Classes
G1: Creatures capable of speech, celestial bodies, fire, souls, and magic
G2: Animals that are not invertebrates, flowing fluids, blood and lava, weather, anything made of bones, the heart, the mind, and the stomach.
G3: Plants, still fluids invertebrate creatures, abstractions and everything else.

Plurality:
Plurality is only marked on pronouns representing G1 and G2 nouns.

Classifiers are used when something has a number.

Zero-copula construction is available for location and predication in the non-past tense.
Last edited by Nachtuil on 27 Aug 2017 15:34, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Nachtuil »

Nexursin is a pretty inflected language. It fairly free in its word order except for within noun and verb phrases.
Noun Cases

Nominative and Accusative cases are only used for G1 nouns
Absolutive and Ergative/Instrumental cases are used for G2 and G3

The nominative and absolutive cases are unmarked.
Accusative: G1: si
Ergative/Instrumental: G2: vïs G3: vës
Genitive: G1: sin G2: kïs G3: kës
Allative: G1: ku G2 and G3: kü
Ablative: G1: në G2 and G3: näh
Locative: G1 te G2 and G3: të
Inessive: G1: ten G2 and G3: tën
Equative: G1: fir G2 and G3: kïn

The allative and Ablative can also be used in conjunction with the locative, inessive and equative cases. The allative and ablative suffix attach as the second suffix in these cases.

locative with allative: onto
locative with ablative: off of
inessive with allative: into
inessive with ablative: out of
equative with allative: less x than y
equative with ablative: more x than y

I still need to work with the equative case to iron out comparison.

Transitivity
G1 nouns follow a nominative and accusative pattern while G2 and G3 nouns follow an absolutive-ergative pattern.

When agent is G1, agent is nominative, G1 patients are accusative, G2 and G3 patients are absolutive.

When agent is G2, agent is ergative, G1 patients are accusative (requires special verb marking), G2 and G3 patients are absolutive.

When agent is G3, agent is ergative, G1 patients are accusative (requires special verb marking), G2 and G3 patients are absolutive.
Last edited by Nachtuil on 22 Aug 2017 01:14, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Omzinesý »

/k͡x/ is my favourite by the way.
Nachtuil wrote:The nominative and absolutive cases are unmarked.
Accusative: G1: si
Ergative/Instrumental: G2: vïs G3: vës
Genitive: G1: sin G2: kïs G3: kës
Allative: G1: ku G2 and G3: kü
Ablative: G1: në G2 and G3: näh
Locative: G1 te G2 and G3: të
Inessive: G1: ten G2 and G3: tën
Equative: G1: fir G2 and G3: kïn

The allative and Ablative can also be used in conjunction with the locative, inessive and equative cases. The allative and ablative suffix attach as the second suffix in these cases.
Are they morphologically cases? I mean should one see them as clitics instead, i.e. does some modifier of a noun agree them in case? If so does it agree both the primary and the secondary case?
Nachtuil wrote:equative with allative: less x than y
equative with ablative: more x than y
That's a nice idea! (I must copy it in some lang.)
Can the equative appear without the ablative and allative? What does it mean then?
Nachtuil wrote:Transitivity
G1 nouns follow a nominative and accusative pattern while G2 and G3 nouns follow an absolutive-ergative pattern.

When agent is G1, agent is nominative, G1 patients are accusative, G2 and G3 patients are absolutive.

When agent is G2, agent is ergative, G1 patients are accusative (requires special verb marking), G2 and G3 patients are absolutive.

When agent is G2, agent is ergative, G1 patients are accusative (requires special verb marking), G2 and G3 patients are absolutive.
Should the last row say G3 agent?
Split alignments are interesting?
If G1 does not have the instrumental, how would you say 'I burned it with fire.'?
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Nachtuil »

Omzinesý wrote:/k͡x/ is my favourite by the way.

Are they morphologically cases? I mean should one see them as clitics instead, i.e. does some modifier of a noun agree them in case? If so does it agree both the primary and the secondary case?
I am so thrilled someone actually really read what I put here! Thrilled and flattered! I am glad to find run into someone else who appreciates /k͡x/ ;)

I had intended for the case marking to be on the noun itself for each noun-phrase but your question has me thinking that maybe I should try marking the entire noun phrase with a clitic. I hear it is actually more common than direct marking in natural languages. The noun phrase, with the current thinking was that it would be pretty rigid and the noun always marked.

Adjectives were to come with two flavours, 3 for nominative/absolutive and 3 endings for other cases. In this way there was weak double agreement but the allative and ablative would never co-occur with nominative/absolutive adjective endings. I had considered having each case have corresponding adjective endings (with some potential repeats) but I am hesitant to have so many suffixes to worry about, though I understand it could be done more simply and realistically with repeated suffixes.

Omzinesý wrote: That's a nice idea! (I must copy it in some lang.)
Can the equative appear without the ablative and allative? What does it mean then?
Feel free! The equative can appear on its own. I imagine it to convey the meaning of "like x" so dog.abs cat.eqa = the dog is catlike (The language has zero-copula constructions)

I am unsure if I want adjectives to be their own word class while I have an equative case except for a closed class of true adjectives (age, dimension, value, colour) and use the equative case for other sorts of attribution/predication. I am pretty sure it works with with both adjectives and the equative case but maybe not with 1.5. It is a unresolved aspect of Nexursin that I really need to work on.
Omzinesý wrote: Should the last row say G3 agent?
Yes! Thank you for noticing that :)
Omzinesý wrote: Split alignments are interesting?
If G1 does not have the instrumental, how would you say 'I burned it with fire.'?
I think split systems are pretty interesting! I was considering for a long time having first and second person be nom-acc and all third abs-erg. It is potentially less natural having it line up so perfectly with gender though it certainly is easier for my sake! haha

You're right, you would have to say it another way putting the fire in a different case or indicating the fire burning through a verb. Possibilities:
"I gave/offered/subjected it to the fire." (using allative for fire, absolutive for it)
"I placed it in fire" (using inessive for fire absolutive for it)
"I allowed fire to it" (using accusative for fire, allative for it)
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Nachtuil »

Pronouns

:1st: singular, inclusive, exclusive :2nd: singular, plural :3rd: G1 singular, G1 plural
Nominative : Je Xuj Urë Xu Ënxu Fe Ïfe
Accusative : Jes Xujes Urës Xus Ënxus Fes Ïfes

:3rd: G2 general, G3 general
Absolutive : Nës Zäs
Ergative : Nëh Zäh

:1st: sing, incl, excl :2nd: sing, plur :3rd: G1 sing, G1 plur, G2 General, G3 General
Genitive : Jesin Xujsin Ursin Xusin Ënxusin Fesin Ïfesin Nëkïs Zäkës
Allative : Jeku Xujku Urku Xuku Ënxuku Feku Ïfeku Nëkï Zäkë
Ablative : Jenë Xujnë Urnë Xunë Ënxunë Fenë Ïfenë Nënäh Zänäh
Locative : Jete Xujete Urte Xute Ënxute Fete Ïfete Nëtë Zätë
Inessive : Jeten Xujten Urten Xuten Ënxuten Feten Ïfeten Nëtën Zätën
Equative : Jefir Xujfir Urfir Xufir Ënxufir Fefir Ïfefir Nëkïn Zäkïn

It's definitely a lot of pronouns.... thank god they are perfectly regular right?

I really wish this messaging board software had native table support (or maybe it does?)
Last edited by Nachtuil on 14 Jul 2017 22:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Nachtuil »

Classifiers:

Classifier words are used for when nouns are counted or have a number attached as if all nouns are normally mass nouns and not count nouns.

zëm Solid flat things like plates, scales, doors etc.
lah Flat flexible things like sheets, leaves etc
är Stiff shaft like things like poles or sticks.
hër Noodles, ropes, vines, string, rivers.
üze Containers, boxes, bags, vases, bags
tir Living non-sentient creatures, animals
nam Sentient creatures, celestial bodies
xäs Undead creatures, machines, vehicles, tools.
cïr Groups generally, swarms, families, armies, flocks.
hij Generic physical objects with solid forms.
qül Clouds, plumes of smoke, generally undefined forms and abstractions.


Hija nd qül are both generic classifiers that can strictly speaking be used in place of any of the others.
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Omzinesý »

Nachtuil wrote:Classifiers:

Classifier words are used for when nouns are counted or have a number attached as if all nouns are normally mass nouns and not count nouns.

zëm Solid flat things like plates, scales, doors etc.
lah Flat flexible things like sheets, leaves etc
är Stiff shaft like things like poles or sticks.
hër Noodles, ropes, vines, string, rivers.
üze Containers, boxes, bags, vases, bags
tir Living non-sentient creatures, animals
nam Sentient creatures, celestial bodies
xäs Undead creatures, machines, vehicles, tools.
cïr Groups generally, swarms, families, armies, flocks.
hij Generic physical objects with solid forms.
qül Clouds, plumes of smoke, generally undefined forms and abstractions.


Hija nd qül are both generic classifiers that can strictly speaking be used in place of any of the others.
I know very little of classifiers. Not even what they are really. If you want to say 'I saw an apple.' would you use a classifier, or do you have to specify 'I saw one apple.' to use the classifier.
Do they cooperate with the genders or are they fully distinct?
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Re: Nexursin

Post by gach »

Good job having both noun classes and classifiers. I like when languages grammaticalise more than one type of nominal classification.
Omzinesý wrote:I know very little of classifiers. Not even what they are really. If you want to say 'I saw an apple.' would you use a classifier, or do you have to specify 'I saw one apple.' to use the classifier.
Nachtuil's description defines the classifiers as numeral classifiers so I'd guess you'd form the sentences along the lines of "I saw an apple" and "I saw one hij apple". There are languages that use classifiers in different ways, including with verbs, with possession, or with nouns in general, sometimes using a single set of classifiers for more than one purpose and in other cases using parallel sets of classifiers for different purposes. Numeral classifiers are one particularly well known type of nominal classifiers.
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Nachtuil »

Thanks Gach!

Gach has is it on the nose about how they work! That said, as he mentions there are many different uses that classifiers see in different languages. Part of my reason for including them is also due to their novelty to me and I want to explore them a bit. In Nexursin, the each noun is not strictly related to specific classifiers but they have semantic implication about them.

"One hij apple" would be how to say "one apple"

Some languages use different classifiers in a way I'd like to replicate you could have:

"One cïr apple" which would mean "One batch of apples"
"One üze apple" which would mean "one crate of apples"
"One lah apple" might mean "one apple skin peel" and
"One zëm apple" would indicate "one slice of apple"

They would cooperate with genders in that you could never use the one for sentient creatures with non-sentients or animals for people (actually.... people probably would do that to insult said people)

I think some languages have very strict associations between nouns and classifiers, such as Chinese??
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Nachtuil »

I wish to elaborate further on the interplay between noun class and classifier. The classifiers are their own thing aside from the noun class, for instance, fire is of the first gender, but no Nexursin speaker would refer to it with "nam", the classifier for sentients and celestial bodies (though interestingly, the celestial bodies are also of the first gender) but probably with "qül", the classifer of abstractions, clouds and amorphous objects. This is despite referring to fire with the same pronoun that one would refer to people with, using the same rules of transitivity too.

Edit: Upon even further consideration, maybe sentient bodies shouldn't take the nam classifier. I'll have to play around with it.
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Nachtuil »

I've decided that the ablative and allative cases are to be marked at the end of the noun phrase, while other cases are attached directly to the effected noun.

True adjectives are a closed class and will follow directly behind their modified noun. Their ending inflects for the gender of the word being modified.
G1: "nï" G2: "nïs" G3: "nïh"

Here is an example of the word for star "Atëh" (first gender) with the adjective "keh" which means beautiful or blessed.

Nominative: Atëh kehnï
Accusative: Atëhsi kehnï
Genitive: Atëhsin kehnï (requires a second noun to be grammatically complete)

Allative: Atëh kehnïku
Ablative: Atëh kehnïnë

Compare with unadjectived versions:
Allative: Ahëhku
Alative: Ahëhnë

Locative: Atëhte kehnï
Locative+Allative: Atëhte kehnïku
Locative+Ablative: Atëhte kehnïnë

Inessive: Atëhten kehnï
Inessive+Allative: Atëhten kehnïku
Inessive+Ablative: Atëhten kehnïnë

Equative: Atëhtfir kehnï
Equative+Allative: Atëhfir kehnïku (requires a second noun to be grammatically complete)
Equative+Ablative: Atëhfir kehnïnë (requires a second noun to be grammatical complete)

I have no hope of ever being able to speak this language with any bit of fluency, but it is humanly possible, or so I imagine.
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Re: Nexursin

Post by DesEsseintes »

Nachtuil wrote:
Omzinesý wrote:/k͡x/ is my favourite by the way.
I am so thrilled someone actually really read what I put here! Thrilled and flattered! I am glad to find run into someone else who appreciates /k͡x/ ;)
I like k͡x, too. In fact I like most if not all non-sibilant affricates. [:)]
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Nachtuil »

Hurrah! Do you think it is plausible to get it from an aspirated k?


Here is the current list of the closed class of adjectives. These directly follow the nouns the modify. I will make a post about the noun phrase eventually. I think they are pretty standard for a closed class: dimension, colour, age, value, beauty, but with a few others. 17 total.


Spoiler:
Ajkë. Adjective
Strong or healthy.

Ashe. Adjective
Weird or strange. Often used for situations and people. Not necessarily negative.

Cë. Adjective.
Bad, or undesirable. Applies to ethics as well as valuation.

Ëca. Adjective.
Small

Hezu. Adjective.
Tall or long

Ipum. Adjective.
Large

Keh. Adjective
Beautiful or blessed.

Küpar. Adjective. Colour
Yellow.

Lir. Adjective.
Young or new

Mëqi. Adjective.
Weak or sickly.

Pas. Adjective.
Ugly or cursed

Pïcë. Adjective. Colour
Black.

Teh. Adjective. Colour
White.

Ucä. Adjective.
Old

Vüs. Adjective. Colour
Red

Xa. Adjective.
Good, valuable. Applies to ethics as well as valuation.

Zuj. Adjective.
Short in height or length
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Omzinesý »

Nachtuil wrote:Hurrah! Do you think it is plausible to get it from an aspirated k?
It's such a rare sound that it's difficult to give examples. In Lakota and Navajo, velarization and aspiration seem to have free variation. High-German made p -> pf and t -> ts but k -> x.

In my Ronlang Kagenian I have:
sk -> xk -> kx /_V [back]
t -> cç /_V[front]
Then kx and cç merge and becomes back and front allophones of one phoneme.
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Nachtuil »

Perhaps I will make /kx/ turn to /x/ if I have a later stage of this language. In the mean time, maybe it will be allophonically /x/ intervocalically.


Verbal morphology. (subject to change of course)

The infinitive verb from is the stem+pur. This may also be a the gerund version with a case ending.

Adverbial prefixes:
Spoiler:
Nexursin has the following verbal prefixes. Truth be told, I am considering making them free floating particles that mandatorily precede the verb. Any more free floating they'd just be regular adverbs. I am not sure what the general method or "rules"are as to whether something is considered a prefix as opposed to a preceding particle orthographically. I have yet to determine how they all interact, which is something I see manifesting through translation and use of the language:

Lïr: requestive - used for being polite while making requests, when used in conjunction with the imperative construction but especially so when used with the optative mood for making requests.

Kar: Interrogative - this is used to indicate something is a question, since nothing else currently in the grammar indicates questions explicitly.

Cüs: negation - This is used to negate the verb or an adverb. With the imperative this has a prohibitive meaning. When used with the optative conjugation this produces a vetitive meaning. Not all verbs use the cüs prefix. The seven copulae the language has use alternative verbs. Really there are fourteen copulae.

Nun: Reflexive - This is simply used to indicate a verbs action is directed at the subject.

If multiple adverbial prefixes are used together they come in the order presented up to "(lïr/kar)cüsnun". Lïr and kar are mutually exclusive.
Tense and aspect:
Nexursin has the following:

Two tenses: past and non-past.
The non-past is generally unmarked. Every aspect that follows is available in the past. Those are that are also available in the non-past experience reduplication of the initial syllable to put them into the past.

The aspects are as follow:
Jir - perfective
unmarked - imperfective
kem - perfect
Väj - momentane
kirer - frequentative

Consider the following example in the 1st person singular indicative conjugation of the verb "ämvupur" which means to place something in or remove from water.
Spoiler:
Non-past:
Imperfective: ämvuse
Perfect: ämvukemse
Frequentative: ämvukïrerse

Past:
Perfective: ämvujirse
Imperfective: ämämvuse
Perfect: ämämvukemse
Momentane: ämvuväjse
Frequentative: ämämvukïrerse
The imperative mood
The imperative has no person, gender or plurality marking, thought aspects still are used. To indicate imperative the verb is so left "bare" and shunted to the front of the clause.

The three conjugations
There are three moods in the language without any great amount of exceptions.
Spoiler:
Indicative mood:

1st singular: se
1st inclusive: sehu (sometimes just "seh")
1st exclusive: su

2nd singular: hu
2nd plural: hum

3rd G1 sing: hi
3rd G1 plur: his

3rd G2: që
3rd G3: zä

Unspecified: nih

Subjunctive Mood:

1st singular: ser
1st inclusive: sehur
1st exclusive: sur

2nd singular: hur
2nd plural: humär

3rd G1 sing: hir
3rd G1 plur: hisär

3rd G2: qër
3rd G3: zär

Unspecified: nihär

Optative mood:

1st singular: lëse
1st inclusive: lësehu (sometimes just "lëseh")
1st exclusive: lësu

2nd singular: lëhu
2nd plural: lëhum

3rd G1 sing: lëhi
3rd G1 plur: lëhis

3rd G2: lëqë
3rd G3: lëzä

Unspecified: Lënih
The unspecified conjugation is used when the subject's gender/number/person is unknown. It is also used when a "lower"noun class is the agent to a "higher" noun class. That is, if a second or third gender agent is affecting a first gender patient, or a third gender to a second gender patient, the unspecified is used.

That is what I am working with for now. I just recently learned that some languages use a subjunctive verb form as an infinitive:

"I want that I would bike" instead of "I want to bike". Which I find utterly entrancing. I still need to nail down where my subjunctive is and isn't used as it seems a wily designation used for very varied things across different languages. I am leaning towards irrealis subordinate clauses but need to do more research I suppose.

Indefinite nouns can never be the subject of a verb. All verb subjects are assumed to be definite.
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Nachtuil »

Numbers.

Nexursin's native number system is base 12 and the traditional way of counting derives from knuckle counting. Five and ten are clearly related, ten meaning "twofive" which leads to some speculation as to where these numbers came from and if Nexursin at one time had a base ten system or borrowed some number terms from another source.

First old Nexursin numbers:
1 /ka/
2 /udəl/
3 /pʰam/
4 /ize/
5 /ezədi/
6 /hedəl/
7 /kʰidəl/
8 /t͡ʃʰebu’a/
9 /nazi/
10 /udəlezadi/
11 /t͡ʃurce/
12 /wipʰə/

New Nexursin Numbers:
(Reminder that ï ë ä ü are low tone with slight creaky voice and i e a u are high tone with slight breathy voice)
1 ka /ka/
2 ül /ul/
3 fam /ɸam/
4 ïs /is/
5 ësti /esti/
6 hël /hel/
7 xil /k͡xil/
8 jëpüh /ʃepuh/
9 näs /nas/
10 ülësti /ulesti/
11 jurce /ʃuɾt͡ʃe/
12 vif /ʋiɸ/

(12^2) 144 is vifkifï (kifï is an augmentative suffix)
(12^3) 1782 is xivipa
(12^4) 20736 is xivipakifï
(12^5) 248 832 is tüsarivif


For written notation using the roman alphabet the following correspondences are used:
1 to 9 is the same.
10 is d.
11 is b.
12 is 10.
So: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 d b 10.
7 is 7. 14 is 12. 22 is 1d. 38 is 32. 73 is 61. 100 is 84. 107 is 8b.

I will add more later. I still need to sort out the order numbers are written in.
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Re: Nexursin

Post by Nachtuil »

For number formation I am going to take a simple route.

Base + multiplier+ conjunction + Base + multiplier.

Examples:
14 (base 10) = 12x1+ 2 -> 12 (base 12)
"vif ha ül"
twelve and two.

84 (base 10) = 12x7 -> 70 (base 12)
"vifxil"
twelve seven.

139 (base 10) = 12x11 + 7 -> b7 (base 12) (where b is 11)
"vifjurce ha xil"
twelve eleven and seven

231 (base 10) = 144x1 + 12x7 +3 ->173 (base 12)
"vifkifï ha vifxil ha fam"
bigtwelve (one"hundred") and twelveseven and three

4301 (base 10) = 1782x2 + 144x5 + 12x1 + 5 -> 2515 (base 12)
"xivipaül ha vifkifïësti ha vif ha ësti"
thousandtwo and hundredfive and twelve and five.

83249 (base 10) = 20736x1 + 1782x0 + 144x2 + 12x1 + 5 -> 10215 (base 12)
"xivipakifïka ha vifkifïül ha vif ha ësti"
"bigthousandone and bigtwelvetwo and twelve and five

Edit:
It may or may not be too much to have to add the conjunction between every number place.
"xivipakifïka vifkifïül vif ha ësti" may be better than "xivipakifïka ha vifkifïül ha vif ha ësti"

I will make it so that only the last "ha" is required.
Nachtuil
greek
greek
Posts: 595
Joined: 21 Jul 2016 00:16

Re: Nexürsin

Post by Nachtuil »

Articles.
Definite articles are not explicitly required in Nexürsin. They are the first element of a noun phrase, just like English.

First Gender (G1) noun phrases are lead by "Së"
Second Gender (G2) noun phrases are lead by "Ü"
Third Gender (G3) noun phrases are lead by "Vus"

To explicitly mark a noun as indefinite, a relevant classifier leads the noun phrase instead of a definite article. Marking as definite or indefinite is not mandatory if the flow of conversation doesn't require it.

Demonstratives:
Demonstratives do double duty as they are also adverbs normally.
Near speaker: "La"
Near listener: "Nas"
Near neither: "Ëmi"

Demonstratives take on that role when used in conjunction with a definite article. They must come after the definite article but cannot come between a classifier and number, nor between a noun and an adjective.

Examples:
"Së vilke"
"The man."
"Së la vilke"
"That man." ("The man here")

Copulae.
Currently, Nexürsin has seven main pairs of linking verbs. Each one has a special negative form and so neither the positive or negative form use the negating prefix on the verb.

1. Equation:

Fenpur (positive) Zësapur (negative)
These are used for equation between nouns. "Dez is a doctor" "The house is a shack"

When equation is done with two nouns, the subject verb will be in the nominative/absolutive case and the object of equation will be accusative/absolutive case. When lower animacy (G2 and G3) objects are being compared there is a degree of grammatical ambiguity since both nouns are in the absolutive but usually it is clear from context. This is especially true since the subject in situations will often be marked as definite (with a particle). Generally the subject can be marked as definite, or the second noun can be marked indefinite. Since indefinite nouns can never be the subject of a verb the relationship can be made clear in that way. Some ambiguity may be unavoidable however.

An example is below:
Näpurin. G3 Temple
Xameh. G3. Home/House

"The house is a temple"
"Vus mefan fenzä näpurin"
Def.G3 House.G3.Abs is.3rd.G3 temple.G3.Abs

"The temple is a house"
"Mefan fenzä vus näpurin"
House.G3.Abs is.3rd.G3 Def.G3 temple.G3.Abs


2. Location:
Location copula are chosen depending on the physical nature of the subject and to a degree on its animacy.

Standing: Hespur (positive) Xüspur (negative):
Used for objects that are upright. People and legged animals take this by default unless they are physically sitting on laying. "Jack stands in the kitchen"

Sitting: Utapur (positive) Cütapur (negative):
Used to indicate the subject is sitting somewhere. By default, inanimate objects will take this or umpur.

Laying: Umpur (positive) Cümpur (negative):
Used to indicate the subject is laying somewhere. This is also used for hanging with context sometimes indicating it but also the case of the location noun. The ablative often will indicate hanging as in.

Example:
"Nës faxirnë umqë"
"It".3rd.G2.Absol "fence".G3.Ablat "lay/hang".3rd.G2
"it lays from the fence" ->"It hangs on the fence"

Compare to:
"Nës faxirtë umqë"
"It".3rd.G2.Absol "fence".G3.Locative "lay/hang".3rd.G2
"it lays on the fence" ->"It lays on the fence"


3. Possession
Possession breaks down into something akin to conventional alienable and inalienable possession. Alienable possession is also used for temporary possessions or states where as inalienable possession describes permanent states or associated objects such as eye colour, family members and traits seen as permanent, even though they might change.

Alienable possession: Ihpur (positive) Karïpur (negative)
Inalienable possession: Anpur (positive) Canpur (negative)

Examples:
"She has nine sisters": Inalienable
"näs nam ësa fe ihhi "
Nine. Classifier. Sisters 3rd.sing.G1 has.3rd.sing

"He does doesn't have black hair": Inalienable.
"Fe karïhi tah pïcënï"
3rd.sing.G1 hasn't.3rd.sing.G1 hair.absol black.G1

"She has sickness" (right now) : Alienable.
"Jïkaf anhi fe"
Sickness.absol has.3rd.sing.G1 he/she.3rd.sing.G1

Zero copula constructions:
Positive location and equation copula can be left out of the phrase in the non-past tense. This cannot be done for possession copulae or for negating copulae.

Examples:
"Zetä is in the city."
"Zetä heshi assatën"
Zetä stands.3rd.sing.G1 city.inessive.G3
~OR~
"Zetä assatën"
Zetä city.inessive.G3

"The red doe sits in the forest."
"Ü särahta vüsnïs tezestën utaqë"
The Doe.3rd.G2 red.G2 forest.inessive.G3 sits.3rd.G2
~OR~
"Ü särahta vüsnïs tezestën"

"The man is a monster"
"Vilke fenhi müfxi."
Man.G3.Nom "is".3rd.sing.G1 beast.Abs
~OR~
"Müfxi vilke"

Compare to:
"The beast is a man"
"Vilkesi fenqë müfxi"
Man.G3.Acc "is".3rd.G3 beast.Abs
~OR~
"Vilkesi müfxi"

Relative Clauses
Definite articles are used to initiate relative clauses. Relative clauses must immediately follow the noun phrase they modify. The verb of a relative clause is always the second element of the clause after the definite article.
Noun phrase being modified + definite article + verb +rest of relative clause.

Relative clauses have no explicit marking where they end, though often they will be the last element of sentence. Generally the default assumption is that the subject of the relative clause matches the root clause but context and explicit pronouns in the relative clause allow the speaker to clarify the relationship.

Examples:

"She has nine sisters, whom she cares for"
"fe ihhi näs nam ësa, së zemhi ïfes"
3rd.sing.G1 has.3rd.sing Nine. Classifier. Sisters def.art carries.3rd.sing.G1 3rd.plural.G1.Acc
(ïfes is optional here but only because there is no ambiguity which noun the verb is agreeing with.)

"She has nine sisters, who care for her"
"fe ihhi näs nam ësa, së zemhis fes"
3rd.sing.G1 has.3rd.sing Nine. Classifier. Sisters def.art carries.3rd.plur.G1 3rd.sing.G1.Acc
(fes is optional here but only because there is no ambiguity which noun the verb is agreeing with.)
Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2102
Joined: 25 May 2014 14:17

Re: Nexürsin

Post by Iyionaku »

Nachtuil wrote:low tone with creaky voice:
Nachtuil wrote:/k͡x/
Keeping up with the Kärchers, a high society Swiss family with a lot of artificial body parts!

Back to honesty:

I like what you have presented so far. I'm a little baffled by all the tremas, would it be possible to mark low tone with a gravis accent for convenience?
Was the 1PLIN pronoun created as a portemantau of 2SG and 1SG? Xu + Je = Xuj?

I adore the split ergativity of your pronoun system, but I think your pronoun system is a little too regular... maybe through some little candy inside? Maybe also create some forms for your genitive that are a little easier?
Classifiers are always cool to have, but I always hesitated to actually use them. Also cool that there are some placeholder classifiers, does a lot for naturalism. If a noun has a specific case, is the case shown on the noun, or the classifier (that morphologically is also a noun, isn't it?), or even both? So is "like nine houses":

"Näs hij xamehkïn" OR
"Näs hijkïn xameh" OR
"Näs hijkïn xamehkïn"?
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
Nachtuil
greek
greek
Posts: 595
Joined: 21 Jul 2016 00:16

Re: Nexürsin

Post by Nachtuil »

Iyionaku wrote:
Nachtuil wrote:low tone with creaky voice:
Nachtuil wrote:/k͡x/
Keeping up with the Kärchers, a high society Swiss family with a lot of artificial body parts!
I had to look up the reference but I quite like what you were going for there :)
Iyionaku wrote: I like what you have presented so far. I'm a little baffled by all the tremas, would it be possible to mark low tone with a gravis accent for convenience?
I will consider it as that might make more sense or be more standard. I considered macrons, and tildes. Tildes are tied to nasalization of course although the under tilde is connected to creaky voice as desired. The tremas are easy for me to produce and I like them but indeed, maybe they are a bit confusing or heavy. I keep wanting to pronounce /y/ when I see <ü>. Now that you have me thinking, perhaps I will try underdots but the gravis is a solution worth my consideration.
Iyionaku wrote:
Was the 1PLIN pronoun created as a portemantau of 2SG and 1SG? Xu + Je = Xuj?
It is that exactly yes! Presumably it was a recent grammaticalization. I have the impression it is attested somewhere but can't summon an example.
Iyionaku wrote:
I adore the split ergativity of your pronoun system, but I think your pronoun system is a little too regular... maybe through some little candy inside? Maybe also create some forms for your genitive that are a little easier?
I do see what you mean. I am going to think about how I could go about this. Maybe I will start by reducing the pronouns to what phonotactics will allow yet keep them distinct, not that real world languages worry about this of course, looking at you German. At the moment I do like the degree of nonconfigurationality granted by having a clear distinction between noun and verb and the prodrop ability.

The second and third plural forms do annoy me though. Maybe I can replace them entirely with a different case paradigm although I hesitate to do so since I imagine that paradigm might be reanalysed as a plural marking that might be extended to different non-pronouns... then again, maybe that is where it came from, that it was an old plural marking paradigm that used to be shared on other nouns but was lost. I suppose I could also have a different paradigm for genitive pronouns on top of that anyways...
Iyionaku wrote:
Classifiers are always cool to have, but I always hesitated to actually use them. Also cool that there are some placeholder classifiers, does a lot for naturalism. If a noun has a specific case, is the case shown on the noun, or the classifier (that morphologically is also a noun, isn't it?), or even both? So is "like nine houses":

"Näs hij xamehkïn" OR
"Näs hijkïn xameh" OR
"Näs hijkïn xamehkïn"?
Thanks! By placeholder classifiers do you mean the ones for generic use? I have never used them either. So far I am using them with numbers and as optional indefinite articles. I am still seeing what other grammatical work I could set them to.

For classifiers my thinking was that case is indicated on the root noun only, except for the allative and ablative cases which are added to the last element of the noun phrase. I had not thought of classifiers of being noun like in that sense though seeing how so much of my language is noun-like (I am thinking how predication is mostly done and with all the case declension) maybe some agreement would not be unreasonable.

To actually answer the question, the format would be
"Näs hij xamehkïn"

Thank you so much for taking the time to read and comment!
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