Altlang Ideas Discussion

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Ælfwine
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Ælfwine »

Salmoneus wrote: 02 Jul 2018 20:40 Which of the Tolkien wikis is that? Ardalambion don't mention any of that. Although of course the ardalambion page probably hasn't been updated in decades, so...
[anyway, Cuind is pretty clearly the goidelic version...]

My language would probably be called Weondeglamme or the like. One elf, wend, two elves, winde, group of elves windan. Of an elf, weonde, of two elves windu, of a group of elves windunge. Language/tongue glamme (pl. glammi, col. glammin; genitives glammu, glammau, glammunge). Something like that...
This wiki.

I also stumbled across this website.

Very Germanic looking.

I like that tonal ablaut idea WeepingElf, perhaps if I do add tones to one of the Avarin languages (I'm thinking Hwenti or Kindi atm), I'll do it.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by WeepingElf »

Salmoneus wrote: 03 Jul 2018 00:50
WeepingElf wrote: 02 Jul 2018 22:06
Salmoneus wrote: 02 Jul 2018 20:48 Why turn ablaut into tonal ablaut?
Why not?
Well, it seems like taking a language and removing what makes it what it is. It also seems like randomly picking two things to swap, even though they've got nothing to do with one another other than the word 'ablaut'.
And how? Wouldn't it be more interesting to keep ablaut, but add tone the normal way?
The idea is that PIE *e gives high tone, and PIE *o low tone. There will be further factors that contribute to tone, so there won't be a simple high/low 2-tone system, but various contour tones as in Chinese languages. Isn't this more interesting than keeping ablaut as it is and adding tone the "normal" way?
Well, you may think so, of course. Personally no, I don't think so. I'd rather have ablaut AND tone, rather than just tone. Besides, PIE has so many resources with which to create a whole range of tones, including tonal ablaut. You've got mobile pitch, you've got three stop series, you've got laryngeals, you've got vowel length, you've got complex syllables. Why spend the resource of vowel quality as well?

Also: has that ever happened, anywhere, that tones arise from front vs back vowels?
Well, tastes differ. I thought that turning PIE ablaut into tone ablaut was a nice idea. You are invited to do a Chinese-like IE language according to your preferences.

What I have so far is this - only a prototype, not the final product:

In the following, acute accent marks high tone, grave accent low tone.

*e > á
*a, *o > à
*ei > é
*ai, *oi > è
*eu > ó
*au, *ou > ò

I am not sure about zero grades, yet.

Labiovelars and Cw clusters transfer labiality to following vowels, e.g. *kwoi > kø̀ (dative postposition). Likewise, palatovelars and Cy clusters transfer palatality to following vowels, e.g. *dyeu- > dǿ 'sky'. As the examples show, this may lead to front rounded vowels.

The numerals 1-10:

èn 1
2
čé 3
kót 4
páng 5
sók 6
sáp 7
àk 8
nón 9
dák 10

And a little sentence:

Má tá kø̀ ló.
1SG 2SG DAT love
'I love you.'

Etymologies:

*me te kwoi leubh-

(The dative postposition is also used to mark animate direct object, as in Spanish or Bengali, the latter using a cognate morpheme.)
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by WeepingElf »

I have now set up a new thread for the Avarin discussion.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Ælfwine »

I'm necroing this thread, as I have something very interesting I found in researching Crimean Gothic for my own conlang to add here, so I hope it will inspire discussion.

Supposedly, there is evidence that after William the Bastard conquered England, a small group of Englishmen fled to Constantinople to seek employment by the Basileus, and were rewarded for their work with land northeast of the black sea (real life Novorossiysk).

So — what if these Englishmen managed to hold on to their tongues and identity until the modern day? What would this language look and sound like? I reckon it would have a resemblance to modern English, but heavily influenced by the Northwest Caucasian languages.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by spanick »

Ælfwine wrote: 09 Aug 2019 21:03 I'm necroing this thread, as I have something very interesting I found in researching Crimean Gothic for my own conlang to add here, so I hope it will inspire discussion.

Supposedly, there is evidence that after William the Bastard conquered England, a small group of Englishmen fled to Constantinople to seek employment by the Basileus, and were rewarded for their work with land northeast of the black sea (real life Novorossiysk).

So — what if these Englishmen managed to hold on to their tongues and identity until the modern day? What would this language look and sound like? I reckon it would have a resemblance to modern English, but heavily influenced by the Northwest Caucasian languages.
Very interesting idea!

Also, I’m glad you necroed the thread because it reminded me to work on my Arabic-Old French altlang idea.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by eldin raigmore »

Ælfwine wrote: 09 Aug 2019 21:03 ....
Supposedly, there is evidence that after William the Bastard conquered England, a small group of Englishmen fled to Constantinople to seek employment by the Basileus, and were rewarded for their work with land northeast of the black sea (real life Novorossiysk).
....
“https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Robert_of_Paris#Plot_introduction” wrote:Set in Constantinople at the time of the First Crusade, Count Robert of Paris portrays the impact of Western medieval values and attitudes on the sophisticated Romano-Greek classical society of the Byzantine Empire. The two main characters are Count Robert, a Frankish knight, and Hereward, an Anglo-Saxon refugee from the Norman conquest of England, serving as a mercenary soldier in the Varangian Guard of the Emperor Alexios I Komnenos. Count Robert was an actual but minor historical figure who disrupted negotiations between the Crusader leaders and the Emperor by occupying the latter's throne when it was temporarily vacated.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Shemtov »

An Austranesian language spoken in Ryukyu
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Omzinesý »

This is the thread I should have posted this
Omzinesý wrote: 17 Jun 2023 13:51 An idea for a Romlang in Spain.

It loses *f. Apparently some Spanish dialects do that completely.
Then it has the sound change θ -> f, which is apparently happening in English.
Latin facere Spanis hacer would be afer.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Creyeditor »

Ooh, I just rediscovered this thread. Romlang in West Africa (from Wikipedia ot seems we know more now about possible North African Romance natlangs, so it might have become easier) or in Western China. Greeklang in Northern India, an Austronesian lang in East Africa with a Nilotic substratum. So many ideas, so little time.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by WeepingElf »

Creyeditor wrote: 25 Jun 2023 20:37 Ooh, I just rediscovered this thread. Romlang in West Africa (from Wikipedia ot seems we know more now about possible North African Romance natlangs, so it might have become easier) or in Western China. Greeklang in Northern India, an Austronesian lang in East Africa with a Nilotic substratum. So many ideas, so little time.
If you find plausible ways of how those languages got there, fine. Otherwise, silly.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Creyeditor »

Of course there would have to be. And of course I have initial ideas. If Austronesian setllement if Madagascar headed a bit further north, they would have probably settled in Nilotic-speaking area (assuming that Swahili and similar Bantu speaking groups expanded later).
Actually, this gives me another idea. What if an Afroasiatic language (probably Cushitic) came into contact with a Hadza-related substrate and developed Clicks.

West African Romance could be realistic if North African Romance speaking populations fled through the Sahara with the help of Berber speakers in order to escape religious persecution.

Greeklang in Northern India would mean we would have traces of Alexanders armee of course.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Salmoneus »

It wouldn't have to be Alexander's army - Greek was spoken in or near northern India for hundreds of years.

Latin was spoken in West Africa, because Romans travelled there for trade... but probably not very many of them, assuming you mean equitorial africa. Morocco obviously spoke Latin historically. It seems unlikely enough Romans would end up in, say, Liberia through exodus to be a viable colony, particularly as Romans in North Africa didn't all speak Latin yet anyway. But an althist with more Roman colonisation of the coast - a major expedition to the Gambia, for example, might be doable.

Much more plausible would be Roman settlement of, say, the Cape Verde islands.

[people underestimate how far the Romans travelled, incidentally. There was a long-term Roman settlement in Vietnam, for instance!]

Romans in Western China is less plausible to me; I'm not sure how they'd have gotten there (unless they conquered Persia, of course!)

Austronesian in east africa is obviously very plausible, but it's a bit of a stretch to put Nilotes there, as they're late arrivals even in their present area. Both click languages and cushitic historically had wider ranges (Cushitic is a major cultural and linguistic substrate for the southerly nilotic groups), but most of the pre-Bantu landscape is unknown.

An Afroasiatic language DID come into contact with a Hadza- (or Sandawe-related) substrate and DID develop clicks! It's called Dahalo!
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Creyeditor »

Thanks for the input. Cushitic substrate Austronesian also sounds like a great idea. Also, thanks for reminding me of Daholo, what a great language. And there might be better places for Romlangs than Western China (I might have confused different strands of Christiniaty-related religions that made it to China early-ish with other strands that spoke more Latin). And a Romlang in Vietnam sounds even better [:D]
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Keenir »

Salmoneus wrote: 26 Jun 2023 03:38Much more plausible would be Roman settlement of, say, the Cape Verde islands.

[people underestimate how far the Romans travelled, incidentally. There was a long-term Roman settlement in Vietnam, for instance!]

Romans in Western China is less plausible to me; I'm not sure how they'd have gotten there (unless they conquered Persia, of course!)
Wait...

Then how did they get to Vietnam without conquering Persia?
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Salmoneus »

Vietnam is on the coast; they went by boat.

However, I seem to have been over-bold. It's not clear whether the Romans stayed in Vietnam, or in what numbers, or when. Roman currency and trade goods reached Vietnam, and southern Vietnam (probably) appeared on their maps as the city of Cattigara. However, Ptolemy was unaware that it was possible to sail from Vietnam to China - he believed the land connected directly to Australia, and hence Antarctica and Africa - which suggests that knowledge of Vietnam did not read the Empire in any great amount.

However, the Chinese report the Romans reaching China from Vietnam in the 2nd century, and by the 3rd century they reported Roman merchants as being widespread in Vietnam.

So I'd guess that Romans travelled to Vietnam, where they operated as merchants, but they didn't travel back very often.

Roman presence in India, on the other hand, was more substantial and solidly-reported.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Keenir »

Salmoneus wrote: 27 Jun 2023 02:18 Vietnam is on the coast; they went by boat.
ah. I'd heard historians say it was hard enough for Rome to get by boat to India, and it may've been easier had the conquest of Arabia succeeded.

*snip various replies*

*shrugs*
sorry.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by WeepingElf »

Well, trade goods, especially coins, may end up in places where the people who produced them never were. We know that there was trade between Rome and China, involving middlemen, along the famous Silk Road, and there also was trade between China and Vietnam, of course, so Roman coins may have ended up in Vietnam that way.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Salmoneus »

Yes; but the more direct the contact, the moe likely it is for sizeable amount of currency to end up somewhere - I'm not aware, for instance, of Roman currency being found in eastern Siberia, though the same via-china route would be possible. In general, I'd expect Vietnamese* to want Chinese currency from the Chinese, as they'd have been more familiar with it, and there would have been more of it.

I'm not sure how much Roman coinage would have reached China via the silk road anyway. The whole point of the Roman naval expeditions to India and China was to avoid Persia; Persia would not allow Romans to trade directly with the Chinese. Instead, Persians bought silk from the Chinese and sold it to the Romans at a considerable markup.

In any case, I'll reiterate:
- Romans (pretty much) definitely reached northern Vietnam (then part of China), reportedly from the south. It's pretty clear that they really were Romans because they claimed to be sent by the emperor "Andun", and they appeared early in the reign of Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (though they may have left Rome in the reign of Antoninus Pius). [an intriguing detail is that the trade goods they brought were from SEA, not from Europe. The main assumption apparently is that they lost their original goods en route. It's possible, though, that an autonomous Roman community in SEA might have taken it upon themselves to visit China with their own local trade goods; they would have known the name of the Emperor via ongoing contacts with Roman India and beyond].

- The Chinese later believed that there were many Roman merchants in southeast Asia

- Roman sailors based in Egypt were able to (by the standards of the time) accurately describe the route to southern Vietnam to Ptolemy

- Romans clearly travelled as far as India on a regular basis and even lived there

- The Chinese also record Indian visitors in this era coming via Vietnam, rather than via the western route. This would suggest that the sea route from India to China was known about in this era (as it clearly was to the Arabs a few centuries later), even if nobody told Ptolemy about it.


From these, I think it's fair to assume that the Roman coins in Vietnam were brought there by Romans, not by Chinese. [if not, the second-best guess would have to be that they came via other maritime traders, not via China and the silk road]
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by LinguoFranco »

Probably not the most original idea, but I've toyed with making a conlang that is the only surviving descendant of the East Germanic branch.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Keenir »

Salmoneus wrote: 27 Jun 2023 14:55 Yes; but the more direct the contact, the moe likely it is for sizeable amount of currency to end up somewhere - I'm not aware, for instance, of Roman currency being found in eastern Siberia, though the same via-china route would be possible.
Possible, yes...but did Eastern Siberians want Chinese goods or Chinese coins? (and if they only used Chinese coins with the Chinese, what exactly would they do with Roman coins? Aside from turn them into decorations on necklaces like the Saxons did)
In general, I'd expect Vietnamese* to want Chinese currency from the Chinese, as they'd have been more familiar with it, and there would have been more of it.
Well, given how much gems and other resources from Afghanistan were found in Pharonic Egypt, such as famously in Tut's tomb, how big was the Afghani community on the Nile?
- The Chinese also record Indian visitors in this era coming via Vietnam, rather than via the western route. This would suggest that the sea route from India to China was known about in this era (as it clearly was to the Arabs a few centuries later), even if nobody told Ptolemy about it.
Wait...so does this mean that bananas and birds of paradise reached Rome via Romanovietnamese traders, and not Rome and New Guinea linked as two ends of a trade route?
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