Altlang Ideas Discussion

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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by k1234567890y »

Ælfwine wrote: 11 Apr 2018 06:52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzQ_HwO792o

So I learned two things from watching this cool video.

1.) The Chinese and Romans were aware of each other.
2.) The Chinese actually sent an envoy to seek out Rome

So my idea of an altlang would be, what if the Romans not only defeated their Asiatic rivals to the east, but managed to expand to the borders of the Han Empire, within 300 years? And a language grew out of that? It's probably a bit too ambitious of a project, and I certainly have enough on my plate in terms of rom-langs, but still— what if?
I have ever thought of a Sino-Romlang...but eventually I did not continue it.

And my background for that Sino-Romlang is different.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Salmoneus »

Ælfwine wrote: 11 Apr 2018 06:52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzQ_HwO792o

So I learned two things from watching this cool video.

1.) The Chinese and Romans were aware of each other.
2.) The Chinese actually sent an envoy to seek out Rome

So my idea of an altlang would be, what if the Romans not only defeated their Asiatic rivals to the east, but managed to expand to the borders of the Han Empire, within 300 years? And a language grew out of that? It's probably a bit too ambitious of a project, and I certainly have enough on my plate in terms of rom-langs, but still— what if?
Your easiest timeline from the Chinese side might be a few centuries later. In the 8th century, the Tang warred with first the Umayyads and then the Abbassids in central asia. The Caliphate won control of the region through the Battle of Talas, but the real killer was the series of invasions and rebellions that the Tang then suffered, which essentially destroyed their empire and forced the immediate recall of the armies in the west. Otherwise, it's possible to imagine the Tang defeating the Caliphate and extending their empire, or at least their vassals, to the Caspian.

Of course, your problem on the Roman side is that not only did Rome never extend that far east, but if it had it wouldn't have spoken Latin anyway - the east of the empire was always greek-speaking, and likewise the Byzantine empire contemporaneous to the Tang was Greek-speaking.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Ælfwine »

Salmoneus wrote: 11 Apr 2018 15:31
Ælfwine wrote: 11 Apr 2018 06:52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzQ_HwO792o

So I learned two things from watching this cool video.

1.) The Chinese and Romans were aware of each other.
2.) The Chinese actually sent an envoy to seek out Rome

So my idea of an altlang would be, what if the Romans not only defeated their Asiatic rivals to the east, but managed to expand to the borders of the Han Empire, within 300 years? And a language grew out of that? It's probably a bit too ambitious of a project, and I certainly have enough on my plate in terms of rom-langs, but still— what if?
Your easiest timeline from the Chinese side might be a few centuries later. In the 8th century, the Tang warred with first the Umayyads and then the Abbassids in central asia. The Caliphate won control of the region through the Battle of Talas, but the real killer was the series of invasions and rebellions that the Tang then suffered, which essentially destroyed their empire and forced the immediate recall of the armies in the west. Otherwise, it's possible to imagine the Tang defeating the Caliphate and extending their empire, or at least their vassals, to the Caspian.

Of course, your problem on the Roman side is that not only did Rome never extend that far east, but if it had it wouldn't have spoken Latin anyway - the east of the empire was always greek-speaking, and likewise the Byzantine empire contemporaneous to the Tang was Greek-speaking.
Yeah, which is why I didn't first jump to the Byzantine. In any case it would require a lot of history bending, and I still have Castellic to keep me busy.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

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How about a persian language spoken in a timeline where Islam did not reach Iran/Persia?

Also, to avoid people proposing something like "Neanderthal languages spoken in an alternative history line where Neanderthals are still alive and occupy Europe", "language of sentient dinosaurs in an alternative history line where non-avian dinosaurs did not become extinct because of an asteroid" here. While these kinds of proposals are technically alternative histories, I guess we should restrict the range of "altlang" as "languages spoken in an alternative timeline parallel to the known recorded history"...
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

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Btw, here is a sample of words in my tonal romlang from all three stages in IPA and orthography:
Spoiler:
/ⁿ/ is vowel nasalization, to not mess with the tones.

lector → /létʰò/ <lettos> → /lézô/ <lettos> → /lézô/ <lettos>
doctor → /tótʰò/<dottos> → /tǒzô/ <dottos> → /tǒzô/ <dottos>
focus → /óⁿkʰù/<ontcus> → /óⁿɣû/ <ontcus> → /ôⁿu̯/ <ontğus>
jocus → /jókʰù/ <jotkus> → /jǒɣû/ <jotcus> → /jóu̯/ <jotğus>
districtus → /tìrítʰù/ <disrittus> → /tìrízû/ <disrittus> → /tǐrízû/ <ditrittus>
cīvitatem → /kʰìːvítʰátʰèⁿ/ <civittattens> → /tɕʰîːvǐzázêⁿ/ <ceibittattens> → /tɕʰîːvǐzázêⁿ/<ceibittattens>
adoptare → /áːtótʰàrè/ <addottasres> → /áːzǒzârè/ <addottasres> → /âːzǒzârè/ <adottasres>
opera → /ópʰèrà/ <otpesras> → /óvêrà/ <otpesras> → /óvêrà/ <otpesras>
secundus → /sékʰùⁿdù/ <setcunsdus> → /ɕéɣûⁿzù/ <seetcunsdus> → /ɕêⁿu̯zù/ <seentğusdus>
fīliam → /ìːⁿliàːⁿ/ <inlian> → /ìⁿːʎàⁿː/ <inlian> → /ìⁿːʎàⁿː/ <inlian>
pōntem → /pʰòⁿtʰèⁿ/ <ponstens> → /pʰôⁿzêⁿ/ <ponstens> → /pʰóⁿzêⁿ/ <ponttens>
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by k1234567890y »

Creyeditor wrote: 13 Apr 2018 21:35 Btw, here is a sample of words in my tonal romlang from all three stages in IPA and orthography:
Spoiler:
/ⁿ/ is vowel nasalization, to not mess with the tones.

lector → /létʰò/ <lettos> → /lézô/ <lettos> → /lézô/ <lettos>
doctor → /tótʰò/<dottos> → /tǒzô/ <dottos> → /tǒzô/ <dottos>
focus → /óⁿkʰù/<ontcus> → /óⁿɣû/ <ontcus> → /ôⁿu̯/ <ontğus>
jocus → /jókʰù/ <jotkus> → /jǒɣû/ <jotcus> → /jóu̯/ <jotğus>
districtus → /tìrítʰù/ <disrittus> → /tìrízû/ <disrittus> → /tǐrízû/ <ditrittus>
cīvitatem → /kʰìːvítʰátʰèⁿ/ <civittattens> → /tɕʰîːvǐzázêⁿ/ <ceibittattens> → /tɕʰîːvǐzázêⁿ/<ceibittattens>
adoptare → /áːtótʰàrè/ <addottasres> → /áːzǒzârè/ <addottasres> → /âːzǒzârè/ <adottasres>
opera → /ópʰèrà/ <otpesras> → /óvêrà/ <otpesras> → /óvêrà/ <otpesras>
secundus → /sékʰùⁿdù/ <setcunsdus> → /ɕéɣûⁿzù/ <seetcunsdus> → /ɕêⁿu̯zù/ <seentğusdus>
fīliam → /ìːⁿliàːⁿ/ <inlian> → /ìⁿːʎàⁿː/ <inlian> → /ìⁿːʎàⁿː/ <inlian>
pōntem → /pʰòⁿtʰèⁿ/ <ponstens> → /pʰôⁿzêⁿ/ <ponstens> → /pʰóⁿzêⁿ/ <ponttens>
nice (:

any rules behind the differences of tones between <lettos> and <dottos>? initial consonant?
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

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You got it [:)]
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by k1234567890y »

nice (:

another idea: a Mongolic or Para-Mongolic language that is spoken in the Yellow River Basin in a parallel history where Mongolic invaders killed all Han Chinese people in Northern China
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Cavaliers327 »

k1234567890y wrote: 13 Apr 2018 21:51
another idea: a Mongolic or Para-Mongolic language that is spoken in the Yellow River Basin in a parallel history where Mongolic invaders killed all Han Chinese people in Northern China
I like that idea. How about a Mongolic or Turkic language heavily influenced by Chinese like Vietnamese, Korean, or Japanese. The language would have a robust Sino-Xenic vocabulary. The heavy influence from Chinese might impact the phonology to an extent as well as the morphology to a larger extent. The case system might be eroded or not as robust as before.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

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Cavaliers327 wrote: 13 Apr 2018 22:08
k1234567890y wrote: 13 Apr 2018 21:51
another idea: a Mongolic or Para-Mongolic language that is spoken in the Yellow River Basin in a parallel history where Mongolic invaders killed all Han Chinese people in Northern China
I like that idea. How about a Mongolic or Turkic language heavily influenced by Chinese like Vietnamese, Korean, or Japanese. The language would have a robust Sino-Xenic vocabulary. The heavy influence from Chinese might impact the phonology to an extent as well as the morphology to a larger extent. The case system might be eroded or not as robust as before.
I was thinking that too after sending that post, and I guess I might end up having a sinosphere Mongolic language.

btw, unrelated, I have made a sinosphere ingvaeonic Germanic language which has a lot of Sino-Xenic word borrowed through Japanese with the use of Hanzi/Kanji/Hanja...it is called Urban Basanawa(later renamed Town Speech)
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

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You could start off with the Northern Yuan Dynasty breaking into two. The eastern part survives and joins the Sinosphere by becoming a tributary of China. The territory would have a significant Han population that would intermix with the Native Mongols and Manchus. Here, an increasingly sinicized dialect of Mongolian would be the lingua franca in the country with Classical Chinese the official language. Over time, the new dialect would be the official language of the kingdom/territory. They would be using Chinese characters for a Mongolic language which would prove cumbersome. However, in the 18th century, the King wants to modernize and seeks to establish a modern state free from China. They would adopt the Cyrillic script from Russia and adopt modern vocabulary from Russian. However, in the year 1920, a Far-Right Nationalist movement takes power and attempts purge all Russian "socialist" vocabulary and the government forces lexicographers to use archaic vocabulary and roots to form new words. This attempt was only semi-successful as some words of Russian origin would survive. The King would regain autonomy and westernize his country and establish a Parliamentary Democracy with the Royal Family having significant power.


The language loses vowel harmony eventually. All front rounded vowels lose their rounding. A major consonant shift occurs. There are many Manchu loanwords as well due to the near-complete assimilation of the Manchu people.

This is just a scenario that I came up with. I think it's fun and cool.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Imperious »

Idea: Romance language with a really strong Germanic superstrate initially, then the region comes under strong Polish and other Slavic influence.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Ælfwine »

Imperious wrote: 15 Apr 2018 03:21 Idea: Romance language with a really strong Germanic superstrate initially, then the region comes under strong Polish and other Slavic influence.
Though Germanic influence on my romlang isn't particularly strong, there were Germanics amongst the Avars as well as Slavs, and while the Slavs came to dominate the Germanic influence should not be discounted. It is more or less on par with Germanic influence on Czech and Slovakian.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

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Imperious wrote: 15 Apr 2018 03:21 Idea: Romance language with a really strong Germanic superstrate initially, then the region comes under strong Polish and other Slavic influence.
not a bad idea (: what is the background though? immigration? Slavs moved west?
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Salmoneus »

The one zone where Romance, Germanic and Slavic strata have actually been present is in western pannonia and surrounding areas (like lowland styria, and also carinthia).

It wouldn't take much, however, to produce the effect elsewhere in althistories: slightly further Roman conquest could put such a language in, say, Bohemia; slightly further Germanic conquest could put such a language in, say, Slovenia; or slightly further Slavic conquest could put such a language in, say, Bavaria.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Imperious »

Salmoneus wrote: 15 Apr 2018 22:28 The one zone where Romance, Germanic and Slavic strata have actually been present is in western Pannonia and surrounding areas (like lowland Styria, and also Carinthia).

It wouldn't take much, however, to produce the effect elsewhere in althistories: slightly further Roman conquest could put such a language in, say, Bohemia; slightly further Germanic conquest could put such a language in, say, Slovenia; or slightly further Slavic conquest could put such a language in, say, Bavaria.

I agree. I really like that. So, perhaps the Romans take over a good amount of Magna Germania. Later, after the fall of the Roman Empire there, Germanic dialects take prestige. Then, the Slavic expansion could crop up into as far as Eastern Germany and Northern Austria.

On the language itself, it would be a Western Romance language that would share some features with Eastern Romance as well. We could call it Styrian or Carinthian. Perhaps this language could be set in a world where the Roman Empire spread as far as Ireland and the Germanic migrations would go further West into Ireland. Iceland could be colonized be Romance-speaking Irishmen.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by k1234567890y »

an idea: Judeo-Mongolic, which could co-exist with the Sino-Mongolic language mentioned before
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Cavaliers327 »

k1234567890y wrote: 17 Apr 2018 10:38 an idea: Judeo-Mongolic, which could co-exist with the Sino-Mongolic language mentioned before
Check out Karaim, a Judeo-Turkic language. Get inspiration from that. You'd probably have Persian, Arabic, Turkic, and Chinese loanwords.
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by Imperious »

I like this Judeo-Mongolic idea. I would love to see it.



How about an English version of Afrikaans, a simplified version of the language. You could have the Mayflower go to South Africa. Much like Our Timeline, religious dissidents from Europe would flee their home countries. However, they would congregate in South Africa and speak an archaic dialect of English that diverged from our own Modern English. It would borrow words from Khoisan, Portuguese, and the languages of the other colonists.

Example

He speaks the truth
/hi spiks ðə tɹuθ/

versus
He speaketh the truth
/hɪ ʃpixif də truf/
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Re: Altlang Ideas Discussion

Post by k1234567890y »

Imperious wrote: 19 Apr 2018 00:08 I like this Judeo-Mongolic idea. I would love to see it.



How about an English version of Afrikaans, a simplified version of the language. You could have the Mayflower go to South Africa. Much like Our Timeline, religious dissidents from Europe would flee their home countries. However, they would congregate in South Africa and speak an archaic dialect of English that diverged from our own Modern English. It would borrow words from Khoisan, Portuguese, and the languages of the other colonists.

Example

He speaks the truth
/hi spiks ðə tɹuθ/

versus
He speaketh the truth
/hɪ ʃpixif də truf/
nice idea (: and thanks (:

I guess I will do the Sino-Mongolic and Judeo-Mongolic at the same time...and make them mutually intelligible but with different script and different sources of loanwords
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