Telemiska - Orthography

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kingdemon
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Telemiska - Orthography

Post by kingdemon »

I just started working on a new language for my universe and I almost immediately hit a snag: orthography. Orthography is not one of my strong points. I'd say it's one of many of my weak points when working on a language. I saved it for second to last on my previous project, so I figured I'd come get advice early this time around.

My new language has a nice small variety of phones/phonemes this go around (I still struggle understanding the difference, fyi); however, I decided to do something I hate about English: make an alphabetical letter have multiple phones/phonemes to it. I made strict rules regarding HOW to know what phone/phoneme a letter should be making and was hoping that would be enough during transliteration, but I wanted to be sure. I'm going to present the alphabet: how I would like to represent them followed by their accompanying phones. The rules regarding their pronunciation are at the bottom. If anyone would like to comment about how I could improve this orthography or tell me if I'm way off track that would be appreciated. I do try to keep the transliteration as close to the alien alphabet as possible.

o - oʊ ɔɪ aʊ
õ - oʊ̃
s - s
f - f ɸ β
æ - æ eɪ
æ̃ - æ̃
p - p p̪f p’
g - ɡ ɣ
i - ɪ aɪ
ĩ - ɪ̃
š - ʃ t͡ʃ
k - k kw kx’
d - ɖ ð/θ d͡ʒ
l - ɻ͡l ɬ ɫ
u - ʌ ʊ u:
ũ - ʌ̃
z - z ʒ
t - t ʡ ʈʂ'
n - n ŋ n̥
a - ɒ ɔ: ə
ã - ɒ̃
m - m ɱ m̥
e - ɛ ɪ i:
ẽ - ɛ̃

Consonants letters are divided by two types. These are known as dual or triad. /s/ is an exception. It always produces the /s/ phone.

In triad forms the first variation is used before a vowel, the second is used before a consonant, and the third is used following a vowel or a consonant.
For Example: telemisk - t is used before a vowel so it is pronounced /t/ - l is also used before a vowel, but it is also following a vowel which overrides the other rule, so it is pronounced /ɫ/ - the same is true of m being pronounced /m̥/ - k follows a consonant so it is pronounced /kx’/. For the case of s it is always pronounced as /s/. [tɛ ɫi: m̥ɪskx’]

In dual forms they alternate. The first form is used first, the second next, and then the first form again for longer words.
For example: šamiš - š at the beginning is pronounced /ʃ/ while the š at the end is pronounced /t͡ʃ/ . [ʃɒ maɪ t͡ʃ]

There are 12 vowel letters in the language, half of which are nasal.
The other six make fifteen distinct phones/phonemes. The first form follows after a consonant, the second after another vowel, and the third is the stressed version of the vowel. In the case of æ the phone /eɪ/ fills in the roll of the third vowel and the same is true for i’s /aɪ/.

Thank you for your help! [:D]
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spanick
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Re: Telemiska - Orthography

Post by spanick »

kingdemon wrote: 29 Apr 2018 20:45
My new language has a nice small variety of phones/phonemes this go around (I still struggle understanding the difference, fyi)
A phone is just any sound (or with in s language the actuial way a phoneme and its allophones are pronounced) but phonemes are the sounds that actually distinguish one word from another. They’re more meaningful to the particular language.

Phone is more of a phonetic term while phoneme is a phonological term.

For example I can pronounced <pin> as either [pʰɪn] or [pɪn] without changing the meaning of the word. The phones have changed but the phonemically it’s still /pɪn/. [bɪn] has the new phone [b.] but that is, in English, also a separate phoneme /b/ and thus its also a new word <bin>. This is just basic allophone/phoneme stuff but phones could include other phonetic aspects of speech that don’t really have bearing on the phonology.

Edit: what you have here is a system of allophones which are readily predictable in the orthography based on their environment. It looks nice! Hope to see more of this language.

NB: the period is in the bracket with the b to prevent it from holding he text after it haha
Last edited by spanick on 29 Apr 2018 21:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Telemiska - Orthography

Post by shimobaatar »

I don't have very much time now, but I'll come back later to look further into your orthography.
kingdemon wrote: 29 Apr 2018 20:45 My new language has a nice small variety of phones/phonemes this go around (I still struggle understanding the difference, fyi)
No worries, that's a pretty common source of confusion. I'll do my best to explain the difference.

A phone is, pretty much, any speech sound. Phones are typically transcribed between [brackets]. [t tʰ t̚ t̪] are all phones that are used in English.

A phoneme, however, is a more abstract concept. Phonemes are typically transcribed between /slashes/. A phoneme is a group of phones that are all perceived as being the same "sound" by speakers, because even if that technically isn't true, that's how they function when it comes to their role in determining a word's meaning. Phonemes are contrastive; they're important for distinguishing words. For example, the words "beet" /bit/ and "bead" /bid/ are distinguished by only one phoneme. They can be said to form a minimal pair with one another.

The different phones that speakers of a language consider to be all the same "sound", that is, all part of the same phoneme, are referred to as allophones of that phoneme. Even though the phones [t tʰ t̚ t̪] all appear in English, they are all considered by speakers to be the same "sound", the phoneme /t/. There are no minimal pairs between, for instance, [t tʰ]. These phones are allophones of the phoneme /t/ which occur in different environments. For instance, /t/ is realized as [t̪] around [θ], [t̚] word-finally, and [tʰ] when it appears as the first consonant in the onset of a stressed syllable.

Of course, this is a simplification of things, but that's the gist of it, I'd say. Please feel free to ask for clarification if needed. Note that when I reference English here, I'm referring to my own variety, and things may differ from variety to variety.

(Looks like I was beaten to it!)
kingdemon
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Re: Telemiska - Orthography

Post by kingdemon »

Thank you both for answering my question about the difference between phones and phonemes. I don't know why but I generally can figure out the other terms and concepts in regards to creating a conlang; however, when it comes to these two I really struggle. It might be my dyslexia. They just refuse to click in my brain. When you do have the opportunity to help me with my orthography I would appreciate it. [:D]
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shimobaatar
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Re: Telemiska - Orthography

Post by shimobaatar »

kingdemon wrote: 01 May 2018 00:52 Thank you both for answering my question about the difference between phones and phonemes. I don't know why but I generally can figure out the other terms and concepts in regards to creating a conlang; however, when it comes to these two I really struggle. It might be my dyslexia. They just refuse to click in my brain. When you do have the opportunity to help me with my orthography I would appreciate it. [:D]
Not a problem! Like I said, you're far from alone in mixing those two terms up. Sorry for taking so long to get back to you about the orthography.

kingdemon wrote: 29 Apr 2018 20:45 In triad forms the first variation is used before a vowel, the second is used before a consonant, and the third is used following a vowel or a consonant.
For Example: telemisk - t is used before a vowel so it is pronounced /t/ - l is also used before a vowel, but it is also following a vowel which overrides the other rule, so it is pronounced /ɫ/ - the same is true of m being pronounced /m̥/ - k follows a consonant so it is pronounced /kx’/. For the case of s it is always pronounced as /s/. [tɛ ɫi: m̥ɪskx’]
So, to clarify, the third rule overrides the first rule? In other words, the first realization is only used word-initially, when before a vowel but not after a vowel or consonant? Does the third rule also override the second rule?
kingdemon wrote: 29 Apr 2018 20:45 In dual forms they alternate. The first form is used first, the second next, and then the first form again for longer words.
For example: šamiš - š at the beginning is pronounced /ʃ/ while the š at the end is pronounced /t͡ʃ/ . [ʃɒ maɪ t͡ʃ]
I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you mean here, especially when you say "alternate" and "for longer words".

Anyway, based on our explanations of the differences between the terms "phone" and "phoneme", how would you describe the sounds represented by each letter? Are, for example, [m ɱ m̥] all allophones of /m/, or are there three phonemes /m ɱ m̥/?
kingdemon
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Re: Telemiska - Orthography

Post by kingdemon »

Thank you both! Sorry it's taken me this long to respond. I think I understand now. They would be allophones.

As for the rules: second overrides first and third overrides both first and second. Consider rule one to be general and then the other rules overwrite it.

In dual forms they just go back forth such as š starting with /ʃ/ then going to /t͡ʃ/ then back to /ʃ/.

Example: šamiš = [ʃɒ maɪ t͡ʃ] while šamišaš = [ʃɒ maɪ t͡ʃɒʃ]

I hope that all makes sense. Thank you again for all your help!
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