Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

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Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by CarsonDaConlanger »

Sadhín
Sadhín [səˈdʱin] is an artlang inspired by Semitic and IE languages. It features bi(!)consonantal roots and other fun stuff! Here is an intro post to give you the basics of phonology and typology.
Contents Phonology
Consonants
Nasal: /m n/m n
Plosive: /p b bɦ t d dɦ k g gɦ ʔ/p b bh t d dh k g gh '
Fricative: /f θ s sh ʃ x h/f ṯ s sh s̱ ḵ h
Liquid/semivowel: /l lɦ ɾ j w/l lh r y w
  • /h/ and /x/ neutralize to /ç/ before /i/
  • /ɾ/ becomes /r/ intervocalically
  • There's plenty of sandhi, I'll post it later.
[b}Vowels[/b]
/i i: u u:/i ī u ū
/ɛ e: o:/e ē ō
/a a:/a ā

All vowels are pure; however, short vowels reduce in unstressed syllables:
/a/, /ɛ/>/ə/
/i/, /u/>/ɪ̈/
Stress is phonemic and is marked with an acute. á or ā́.
Two long vowels in one word only occurs when one of them is either /e:/ or /o:/ because of a sound law in the protolang.

Phonotactics
(C)V(C) All phonemes are allowed in all places except for /h/. It lengthens the preceding vowel when in the coda.
Typology
Morphological typology: Sadhín is a synthetic language in a place between agglutinating and fusional.
Alignment: Nominative-Accusative
Order: SOoV
Strongly head final including postpositions and relative clauses coming before the noun.
Human/non human gender distinction(not shown on noun in nominative sg, must be memorized.
Primarily suffixing and infixing.
Last edited by CarsonDaConlanger on 17 Sep 2018 17:18, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by gestaltist »

Having sh is typologically weird - even more so in the absence of voiceless aspirated stops. Is it a conscious choice against naturalism?
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

I like the look of this.
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by CarsonDaConlanger »

gestaltist wrote: 14 Sep 2018 08:09 Having sh is typologically weird - even more so in the absence of voiceless aspirated stops. Is it a conscious choice against naturalism?
The proto lang had an aspirated/plain and voiced/ unvoiced distinction, but then did a grim's law esque sound change where t>[θ] and th>t.
likewise, the fricatives were only /s/ and /ɬ/ with aspiration and velarization distinctions. The veloalveolars merged with the plain alveolars and ɬ>ʃ ɬh>lɦ(which I forgot to list on the inventory lol)
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by Frislander »

gestaltist wrote: 14 Sep 2018 08:09 Having sh is typologically weird - even more so in the absence of voiceless aspirated stops. Is it a conscious choice against naturalism?
Eh, they're found in Burmese, Chumashan, Oto-Manguean, they're definitely attested.
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by Salmoneus »

Frislander wrote: 14 Sep 2018 15:36
gestaltist wrote: 14 Sep 2018 08:09 Having sh is typologically weird - even more so in the absence of voiceless aspirated stops. Is it a conscious choice against naturalism?
Eh, they're found in Burmese, Chumashan, Oto-Manguean, they're definitely attested.
He didn't say they were unattested, he said they were typologically weird. And yeah, "exist in maybe a dozen, mostly sparsely-reported and extinct, of the thousands and thousands of human languages recorded" certainly counts as "weird".

What's more, Burmese and the Chumashan languages also have/had aspirated stops. So did Ofo, and so does Chone, two other languages that had/have this sound. I can't find the specific Oto-Manguean languages you're talking about, but I'll bet they do. Also, the aspirated /s/ in Burmese isn't actually aspirated, it just patterns with the aspirated stops phonologically - and in any case merges with /s/ for most speakers.


Looking up at article on the topic: apparently they're basically only found in Sino-Tibetan and Oto-Manguean and a couple of random other languages. The Oto-Manguean languages may not actually have them, because it's more likely that in at least some of the languages the aspiration is phonemically carried by the vowel, not the consonant, and similarly many of the Sino-Tibetan languages have been questioned. They're always very fragile sounds that typically don't last long diachronically. Where they exist, they may be reinforced by areal affects.


I think it's not unfair to note, so that Carson is aware, that the sound he's using is one of the rarest attested sounds in human languages, and that it probably never occurs without aspirated stops alongside it (though I'm no certain of that), and that it's very prone to changing or merging. That doesn't mean, of course, that he can't have it in his conlang - just that he migh want to be aware of how weird it is.
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

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Salmoneus wrote: 14 Sep 2018 16:16What's more, Burmese and the Chumashan languages also have/had aspirated stops. So did Ofo, and so does Chone, two other languages that had/have this sound. I can't find the specific Oto-Manguean languages you're talking about, but I'll bet they do. Also, the aspirated /s/ in Burmese isn't actually aspirated, it just patterns with the aspirated stops phonologically - and in any case merges with /s/ for most speakers.
(emphasis mine)

Just wanted to mention that this is a nice point of departure for doing some serious phonology conlanging. In Korean some people argue for phonological aspiration on some non-stop sounds either because they pattern with aspirated stops in some processes or IIRC they sometimes act as if there is a /h/ following and sometimes they don't.(Maybe they also alternate with [h], I'm not quite sure.) /sh/ patterning with the breathy voiced stops for some process (coda neutralization maybe) and alternating with /h/ in some contexts would be really cool. Phonetically it could be pronounced [ s ] in all or most contexts.
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by CarsonDaConlanger »

Creyeditor wrote: 14 Sep 2018 16:34 Just wanted to mention that this is a nice point of departure for doing some serious phonology conlanging. In Korean some people argue for phonological aspiration on some non-stop sounds either because they pattern with aspirated stops in some processes or IIRC they sometimes act as if there is a /h/ following and sometimes they don't.(Maybe they also alternate with [h], I'm not quite sure.) /sh/ patterning with the breathy voiced stops for some process (coda neutralization maybe) and alternating with /h/ in some contexts would be really cool. Phonetically it could be pronounced [ s ] in all or most contexts.
In the allophony I explain it. It loses aspiration unless before a vowel.
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by gestaltist »

I'm glad I asked. It sparked quite a discussion. Looking forward to your allophony section, Carson.
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by Shemtov »

Creyeditor wrote: 14 Sep 2018 16:34
Salmoneus wrote: 14 Sep 2018 16:16What's more, Burmese and the Chumashan languages also have/had aspirated stops. So did Ofo, and so does Chone, two other languages that had/have this sound. I can't find the specific Oto-Manguean languages you're talking about, but I'll bet they do. Also, the aspirated /s/ in Burmese isn't actually aspirated, it just patterns with the aspirated stops phonologically - and in any case merges with /s/ for most speakers.
(emphasis mine)

Just wanted to mention that this is a nice point of departure for doing some serious phonology conlanging. In Korean some people argue for phonological aspiration on some non-stop sounds either because they pattern with aspirated stops in some processes or IIRC they sometimes act as if there is a /h/ following and sometimes they don't.(Maybe they also alternate with [h], I'm not quite sure.) /sh/ patterning with the breathy voiced stops for some process (coda neutralization maybe) and alternating with /h/ in some contexts would be really cool. Phonetically it could be pronounced [ s ] in all or most contexts.
IIRC, there are linguists who claim that a now-defunct Hangeul consonant that most reconstruct as [z] was actually [sʰ] but [sʰ] and [ s ] merged to [sʰ], but they kept the "basic" letter.
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by CarsonDaConlanger »

Sadhín Part 2: Electric Boogaloo (Allophony)
Utterance initially:
Voiceless plosives aspirate.
ʔ is dropped unless the preceding word ended in a vowel.
ʃ>tʃ

Utterance medially
Because of the syllable structure, word medial clusters occur, leading to more complex allophony. These also apply across word boundaries, but aren't reflected in writing when across multiple words.

Any homorganic stop cluster becomes a gemminated stop. It becomes a gemminate of the 2nd stop, unless there is a aspirated voiced plosive in the mix, then it becomes a gemminated breathy voiced stop, regardless of the order it is in.
td>dd
dt>tt
dht>ddh
tdh>ddh
Clusters of 2 nasals result in a gemminated nasal, with the POA of the latter.
nm>mm
mn>nn
All aspirated consonants loose aspiration before another consonant, unless that consonant has an aspirated form, then aspiration is pushed to the latter consonant. If the latter is also aspirated, both consonants loose aspiration.
dhl>dlh
dhlh>dl
sh>s//V_V
Fricatives become voiced when next to another voiced consonant, including liquids and nasals.
ɾ>r/V_V
n>ŋ/_velar

Utterance finally
Voiceless stops>unreleased
sh>s
l>ɬ
lɦ>l
Up next is the conscript!
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

Providing an example for each rule (or at least some rules) would definitely liven up the thread. We want to see snippets of your lang! [:D]
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by CarsonDaConlanger »

DesEsseintes wrote: 15 Sep 2018 05:10 Providing an example for each rule (or at least some rules) would definitely liven up the thread. We want to see snippets of your lang! [:D]
Alrighty, lets get allophoning! [:)] (Keep in mind, the grammar is barely decided yet so many of these word forms may not be permanent
Allophony Examples
I'm gonna do the utterance medial ones cuz they're the interesting ones.
(changes across word boundaries aren't reflected in orthography, but word medial ones are.)

Gemmination
(Two homorganic plosives form a gemminate plosive (final one is strong).)
Sarat da /ˈsa.ɾətˌda/ [ˈsa.ɾəˌd:a] in (a) house

(If a breathy voiced stop is present, then the gemminate will be breathy voiced.)
Gamagh da /'ga.məgɦ,da/ ['ga.mə,d:ɦa] in (a) bowl

Nasal clusters always result in a gemminate
samnā́>sannā́ [sə'n:a :] eat-1s.Human(passive)

Aspiration transfer
If an aspirated (or breathy voiced) consonant is followed by a consonant that can be aspirated, aspiration shifts to the second one.
sadhlam>sadlham ['sad.lɦəm] make-1s.Human

If the second consonant is also aspirated, then they both lose aspiration.
nabhghā́>nabgā́ [nəb'ga:] sleep-1s.Human(passive)

k>ts/_i
kitan ['tsi.tən

ɾ>r when stressed
rarínak [ɾə'ri.nək]

That's all for now! Hope you enjoyed it! I'll post more when the language is more fleshed out.
Last edited by CarsonDaConlanger on 17 Sep 2018 16:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by DesEsseintes »

CarsonDaConlanger wrote: 15 Sep 2018 20:10 That's all for now! Hope you enjoyed it! I'll post more when the language is more fleshed out.
Definitely more fun than just reading a list of rules! [:D]
ɾ>r when stressed
rarínak [ɾə'ri.nək]

I especially liked this word form.
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by CarsonDaConlanger »

DesEsseintes wrote: 17 Sep 2018 12:16 Definitely more fun than just reading a list of rules! [:D]
Glad you liked it!
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by CarsonDaConlanger »

Conscript!

Below is a link to my conscript:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mVMZrL ... sp=sharing
It's still a rough draft so if you have any things I should change I'm glad to take advice!
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by Ahzoh »

It looks nice although it looks a little too similar to Armenian and Armenioid conscripts.
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by sangi39 »

Ahzoh wrote: 17 Sep 2018 19:29 It looks nice although it looks a little too similar to Armenian and Armenioid conscripts.
I would have said that's a matter of style and taste, though, isn't it, resulting from minimalist stroke variation (something similar happens in certain black letter fonts for the Latin alphabet). If you add in some additional variations to the basic strokes (play around with ascenders and descenders, including variations in their height, add in some rounding on horizontal or vertical strokes, etc.) and the script starts to feel a little more fleshed out.

I had a similar issue with the alphabetic scripts I've worked on so far:

Image

The one in the brown rows, the Kusan alphabet, was originally much more angular (and probably still could be in some styles), but I added in a rule that certain strokes curve in certain environments (initial downstrokes curve when immediately followed by a low horizontal stroke, for example). I then had the same problem with the alphabet in red, but I added in a couple of rules relating to the curvature of ascenders of descenders and got this:

Image

With the script in blue being a sort of uncial-esque stylistic variant.

(The runic script in between the two of them is the common ancestral alphabet)

The variation might likely come down to writing material (stone, wood, paper, etc.), and the tool used for writing (ink, which then depends on the shape and structure of the nib, a chisel for stone vs. a nail, and so on), but as a start I think this is okay.
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by CarsonDaConlanger »

sangi39 wrote: 17 Sep 2018 20:02
Ahzoh wrote: 17 Sep 2018 19:29 It looks nice although it looks a little too similar to Armenian and Armenioid conscripts.
I would have said that's a matter of style and taste, though, isn't it, resulting from minimalist stroke variation (something similar happens in certain black letter fonts for the Latin alphabet). If you add in some additional variations to the basic strokes (play around with ascenders and descenders, including variations in their height, add in some rounding on horizontal or vertical strokes, etc.) and the script starts to feel a little more fleshed out.

I had a similar issue with the alphabetic scripts I've worked on so far:

Image

The one in the brown rows, the Kusan alphabet, was originally much more angular (and probably still could be in some styles), but I added in a rule that certain strokes curve in certain environments (initial downstrokes curve when immediately followed by a low horizontal stroke, for example). I then had the same problem with the alphabet in red, but I added in a couple of rules relating to the curvature of ascenders of descenders and got this:

Image

With the script in blue being a sort of uncial-esque stylistic variant.

(The runic script in between the two of them is the common ancestral alphabet)

The variation might likely come down to writing material (stone, wood, paper, etc.), and the tool used for writing (ink, which then depends on the shape and structure of the nib, a chisel for stone vs. a nail, and so on), but as a start I think this is okay.
Do you know of any good places to do that? So far, fontstruct is the only thing that works on my computer.
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Re: Sadhín: A Biconsonantal Artlang

Post by sangi39 »

CarsonDaConlanger wrote: 18 Sep 2018 01:45
sangi39 wrote: 17 Sep 2018 20:02
Ahzoh wrote: 17 Sep 2018 19:29 It looks nice although it looks a little too similar to Armenian and Armenioid conscripts.
I would have said that's a matter of style and taste, though, isn't it, resulting from minimalist stroke variation (something similar happens in certain black letter fonts for the Latin alphabet). If you add in some additional variations to the basic strokes (play around with ascenders and descenders, including variations in their height, add in some rounding on horizontal or vertical strokes, etc.) and the script starts to feel a little more fleshed out.

I had a similar issue with the alphabetic scripts I've worked on so far:

Image

The one in the brown rows, the Kusan alphabet, was originally much more angular (and probably still could be in some styles), but I added in a rule that certain strokes curve in certain environments (initial downstrokes curve when immediately followed by a low horizontal stroke, for example). I then had the same problem with the alphabet in red, but I added in a couple of rules relating to the curvature of ascenders of descenders and got this:

Image

With the script in blue being a sort of uncial-esque stylistic variant.

(The runic script in between the two of them is the common ancestral alphabet)

The variation might likely come down to writing material (stone, wood, paper, etc.), and the tool used for writing (ink, which then depends on the shape and structure of the nib, a chisel for stone vs. a nail, and so on), but as a start I think this is okay.
Do you know of any good places to do that? So far, fontstruct is the only thing that works on my computer.
Nope [:P] I did those in MS Paint, lol.

I suspect there might an answer somewhere in this thread or someone else might read this thread and provide a resource here. I'm pretty behind in terms of what resources are useful for conlangers and conworlders (I use MS Paint and Open Office for everything).
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