Lapdeutsch
Re: Lapdeutsch
Jeder & Ein Words as Pronouns
When used as pronouns, jeder and ein words have slightly different declensions in the nominative and accusative cases.
Jeder Words
Nominative: -er/-e/-er/-e
Accusative: -en/-e/-er/-e
Ein Words
Nominative: -e/-e/-e/-e
Accusative: -en/-e/-e/-e
When these declensions are used with possessives, they can optionally be preceded by a definite article. If the article is de or die and precedes here (hers), unser/unse (ours), or euer/eue (yours), it is very often contracted to d', which causes here to be further simplified to just ere. In informal speech, possessive determiners are by far most commonly used without the definite articles, except for those forms above which can contract with de & die. As a result, in informal speech "here" is mostly only used with neuter nouns, while the masculine and feminine form is typically "d'ere".
When used as pronouns, jeder and ein words have slightly different declensions in the nominative and accusative cases.
Jeder Words
Nominative: -er/-e/-er/-e
Accusative: -en/-e/-er/-e
Ein Words
Nominative: -e/-e/-e/-e
Accusative: -en/-e/-e/-e
When these declensions are used with possessives, they can optionally be preceded by a definite article. If the article is de or die and precedes here (hers), unser/unse (ours), or euer/eue (yours), it is very often contracted to d', which causes here to be further simplified to just ere. In informal speech, possessive determiners are by far most commonly used without the definite articles, except for those forms above which can contract with de & die. As a result, in informal speech "here" is mostly only used with neuter nouns, while the masculine and feminine form is typically "d'ere".
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 05 Jan 2019 17:28, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Lapdeutsch
Personal Pronouns
Personal pronouns generally have 3 forms: subject, object (also used for indirect object and unstressed reflexive), and stressed reflexive. In all forms in the third person, a unique pronoun is used for the unstressed reflexive while in third person masculine singular and third person plural there also exists a separate pronoun for the indirect object. For reflexive pronouns, the stressed forms are used after prepositions or to stress the reflexiveness of the act while unstressed forms are used elsewhere. Plural persons also take their own reciprocal pronouns which are only used instead of the reflexive after prepositions or when context isn't clear that the action is reciprocal instead of reflexive. Reciprocal pronouns can also be used in the genitive by simply adding -s.
First Person
Singular
Subject: Ik
Object: Me
Stressed Reflexive: Meself
Plural
Subject: We
Object: Uns
Stressed Reflexive: Unself
Reciprocal: Unsander
Second Person
Singular
Subject: Du
Object: Dé
Stressed Reflexive: Deself
Plural
Subject: Je
Object: Ju
Stressed Reflexive: Juself
Reciprocal: Juander
Formal (Singular And Plural)
Subject: Her
Object: Hern
Stressed Reflexive: Hernself
Reciprocal: Hernander
Conjugates as 3rd person plural but uses Euer as its possessive
Third Person
Masculine Singular
Subject: He
Object: Hin
Indirect Object: Him
Unstressed Reflexive: Se
Stressed Reflexive: Seself
Feminine Singular
Subject: Sie
Object: Her
Unstressed Reflexive: Se
Stressed Reflexive: Herself
Neuter Singular
Subject: It
Object: It
Unstressed Reflexive: Se
Stressed Reflexive: Seself
Plural
Subject: Sie
Object: Hin
Indirect Object: Him
Unstressed Reflexive: Se
Stressed Reflexive: Seself
Reciprocal: Dieander
Vowel Reduction
-All single syllable pronouns pronounce their vowel as /ə/ when unstressed
-He, hin, him, her/Her, Hern, Hernander are often further reduced to 'e /ə/, 'in /ən/, 'im /əm/, 'er/'Er /ər/, 'Ern /ərn/, 'Ernander
/ərˈnandər/ when not at the beginning of an utterance or after a vowel. All of these are written alone except after a verb where they are attached to it, except for 'ernander which is always detached.
-Before "is" (meaning is) me, dé, ju are usually just m', d', j'
-It can be further reduced to 't /t/ when after a verb/preposition not ending in -d or -t, after other pronouns including those that have the -self ending, when starting off a sentence and followed by a vowel or easy to pronounce consonant/consonant cluster, and some other situations. In the first two cases it's written attached to the word (unless it's after an already contracted pronoun) while in other cases it's written alone.
-Pronouns ending in -self and -ander are always stressed on the second syllable and pronounce the vowel in the first as /ə/
-Juander and dieander are often further simplified to j'ander /ˈjandər/ and d'ander /ˈdandər/
Personal pronouns generally have 3 forms: subject, object (also used for indirect object and unstressed reflexive), and stressed reflexive. In all forms in the third person, a unique pronoun is used for the unstressed reflexive while in third person masculine singular and third person plural there also exists a separate pronoun for the indirect object. For reflexive pronouns, the stressed forms are used after prepositions or to stress the reflexiveness of the act while unstressed forms are used elsewhere. Plural persons also take their own reciprocal pronouns which are only used instead of the reflexive after prepositions or when context isn't clear that the action is reciprocal instead of reflexive. Reciprocal pronouns can also be used in the genitive by simply adding -s.
First Person
Singular
Subject: Ik
Object: Me
Stressed Reflexive: Meself
Plural
Subject: We
Object: Uns
Stressed Reflexive: Unself
Reciprocal: Unsander
Second Person
Singular
Subject: Du
Object: Dé
Stressed Reflexive: Deself
Plural
Subject: Je
Object: Ju
Stressed Reflexive: Juself
Reciprocal: Juander
Formal (Singular And Plural)
Subject: Her
Object: Hern
Stressed Reflexive: Hernself
Reciprocal: Hernander
Conjugates as 3rd person plural but uses Euer as its possessive
Third Person
Masculine Singular
Subject: He
Object: Hin
Indirect Object: Him
Unstressed Reflexive: Se
Stressed Reflexive: Seself
Feminine Singular
Subject: Sie
Object: Her
Unstressed Reflexive: Se
Stressed Reflexive: Herself
Neuter Singular
Subject: It
Object: It
Unstressed Reflexive: Se
Stressed Reflexive: Seself
Plural
Subject: Sie
Object: Hin
Indirect Object: Him
Unstressed Reflexive: Se
Stressed Reflexive: Seself
Reciprocal: Dieander
Vowel Reduction
-All single syllable pronouns pronounce their vowel as /ə/ when unstressed
-He, hin, him, her/Her, Hern, Hernander are often further reduced to 'e /ə/, 'in /ən/, 'im /əm/, 'er/'Er /ər/, 'Ern /ərn/, 'Ernander
/ərˈnandər/ when not at the beginning of an utterance or after a vowel. All of these are written alone except after a verb where they are attached to it, except for 'ernander which is always detached.
-Before "is" (meaning is) me, dé, ju are usually just m', d', j'
-It can be further reduced to 't /t/ when after a verb/preposition not ending in -d or -t, after other pronouns including those that have the -self ending, when starting off a sentence and followed by a vowel or easy to pronounce consonant/consonant cluster, and some other situations. In the first two cases it's written attached to the word (unless it's after an already contracted pronoun) while in other cases it's written alone.
-Pronouns ending in -self and -ander are always stressed on the second syllable and pronounce the vowel in the first as /ə/
-Juander and dieander are often further simplified to j'ander /ˈjandər/ and d'ander /ˈdandər/
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 07 Jan 2019 17:34, edited 7 times in total.
Re: Lapdeutsch
So this is an idea that I just came up with and was wondering what people thought of it. Given that vowels in unstressed syllables are sometimes reduced to /ə/, it makes since to be that we'd see this in terms suffixed to numbers like einmal /ˈɛɪ̯nməl/ (once) or tweifald /ˈtwɛɪ̯fəlt/ (twofold) and started thinking that I could extend this to include other nouns used partitively to create a class of counters such as:
Einflasche /ˈɛɪ̯nfləʃə/- A bottle of
Einglas /ˈɛɪ̯ngləs/- A glass of
Einmenge /ˈɛɪ̯nməŋə/- A crowd of
Einsack /ˈɛɪ̯nzək/- A sack/bag of
Einscheiv /ˈɛɪ̯nʃəf/- A slice of
Einstück /ˈɛɪ̯nstək/- A piece of
Eintass /ˈɛɪ̯ntəs/- A cup of
What do you guys think of this idea?
Einflasche /ˈɛɪ̯nfləʃə/- A bottle of
Einglas /ˈɛɪ̯ngləs/- A glass of
Einmenge /ˈɛɪ̯nməŋə/- A crowd of
Einsack /ˈɛɪ̯nzək/- A sack/bag of
Einscheiv /ˈɛɪ̯nʃəf/- A slice of
Einstück /ˈɛɪ̯nstək/- A piece of
Eintass /ˈɛɪ̯ntəs/- A cup of
What do you guys think of this idea?
- Creyeditor
- MVP
- Posts: 5091
- Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32
Re: Lapdeutsch
I have to admit that I don't like it. It makes it look like English to my mind.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
Re: Lapdeutsch
Yeah I think I'm not going to include it. Maybe I'll reuse it for another language sometimeCreyeditor wrote: ↑23 Nov 2018 19:04 I have to admit that I don't like it. It makes it look like English to my mind.
Re: Lapdeutsch
Declensions of Borrowed Nouns
Just realized I forgot to discuss the declensions of loanwords. These words can be put into two groups: those from Latin & Greek and those from other languages
Latin & Greek Loans
Latin & Greek loans typically have far more restricted declensions than native nouns:
-In the dative singular, they never add -e, in the genitive they typically add the regular genitive endings, except when the noun already ends in -s in which case nothing is added (rather than the normal -es ending)
-In the nominative/accusative plural, the plural is typically the same as the one in Greek/Latin such as Stadion-Stadia or Casus-Casus
-In the dative plural, the noun may take an ending -n but for these nouns this is seen as optional. As these nouns are very rarely encountered in the dative plural, a lot of speakers don't know the rules to the dative plural formation and may simply opt to replace the ending with a regular -en dative plural ending
Some nouns borrowed from Latin/Greek take regular native plurals, despite maintaining their irregularities in the present such as Circus-Circusse. Others may simply take the plural -s borrowed from French and English. Some nouns may have 2 plurals: a Latin/Greek one used either formally/archaically and a native/French one that occurs more frequently. An example of this is the noun Thema (theme) which has both the plural Themas as well as the plural Themata.
Like in German, in older texts some nouns may be used with completely Latinate declensions, including using the ablative and vocative. In modern language, only three proper nouns are ever encountered in completely Latinate declension. Outside of religious usage, the only non-nominative forms still in use for these nouns are the vocative and genitive for both Jesus & Christus, although the use of these forms has been continually decreasing despite still being common. In modern speech all three of these nouns can take the modern genitive forms used for names.
Jesus- Jesus
Christus- Christ
Maria- Mary
Other Loans
Nouns borrowed from other languages typically maintain the same plural as the language of origin such as Cherub-Cherubim although if the plural is unknown to the speaker they may replace it with -s. Like Latin/Greek borrowings these nouns never take an ending in the dative singular, but unlike them they always take the proper ending in the genitive singular, and they never take an ending in the dative plural.
Just realized I forgot to discuss the declensions of loanwords. These words can be put into two groups: those from Latin & Greek and those from other languages
Latin & Greek Loans
Latin & Greek loans typically have far more restricted declensions than native nouns:
-In the dative singular, they never add -e, in the genitive they typically add the regular genitive endings, except when the noun already ends in -s in which case nothing is added (rather than the normal -es ending)
-In the nominative/accusative plural, the plural is typically the same as the one in Greek/Latin such as Stadion-Stadia or Casus-Casus
-In the dative plural, the noun may take an ending -n but for these nouns this is seen as optional. As these nouns are very rarely encountered in the dative plural, a lot of speakers don't know the rules to the dative plural formation and may simply opt to replace the ending with a regular -en dative plural ending
Some nouns borrowed from Latin/Greek take regular native plurals, despite maintaining their irregularities in the present such as Circus-Circusse. Others may simply take the plural -s borrowed from French and English. Some nouns may have 2 plurals: a Latin/Greek one used either formally/archaically and a native/French one that occurs more frequently. An example of this is the noun Thema (theme) which has both the plural Themas as well as the plural Themata.
Like in German, in older texts some nouns may be used with completely Latinate declensions, including using the ablative and vocative. In modern language, only three proper nouns are ever encountered in completely Latinate declension. Outside of religious usage, the only non-nominative forms still in use for these nouns are the vocative and genitive for both Jesus & Christus, although the use of these forms has been continually decreasing despite still being common. In modern speech all three of these nouns can take the modern genitive forms used for names.
Jesus- Jesus
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Nouns borrowed from other languages typically maintain the same plural as the language of origin such as Cherub-Cherubim although if the plural is unknown to the speaker they may replace it with -s. Like Latin/Greek borrowings these nouns never take an ending in the dative singular, but unlike them they always take the proper ending in the genitive singular, and they never take an ending in the dative plural.
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 19 Aug 2020 17:57, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Lapdeutsch
Curious - it's the exact opposite of English (in that English stressed the noun there, destressing and dramatically reducing the numeral - ainaz flaskaz aba > @flAsk@. And I don't think we have a similar category of counters, either. (I guess we do do this with qualifiers - somebody, someone, something, etc).Creyeditor wrote: ↑23 Nov 2018 19:04 I have to admit that I don't like it. It makes it look like English to my mind.
- Creyeditor
- MVP
- Posts: 5091
- Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32
Re: Lapdeutsch
Oh, it's more generally an aversion against too much vowel reduction. The more vowel reduction you have in a Germanic language, the more it resembles Enlish, IMHO. Fusing several words into one increases the amount of reduced vowels.Salmoneus wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018 01:06Curious - it's the exact opposite of English (in that English stressed the noun there, destressing and dramatically reducing the numeral - ainaz flaskaz aba > @flAsk@. And I don't think we have a similar category of counters, either. (I guess we do do this with qualifiers - somebody, someone, something, etc).Creyeditor wrote: ↑23 Nov 2018 19:04 I have to admit that I don't like it. It makes it look like English to my mind.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
Re: Lapdeutsch
True, I guess - although to an English speaker, it makes it look German, because 'fusing several words into one' is such an indicator of Germanity. And Lapdeutsch already looks almost exactly like German...Creyeditor wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018 21:01Oh, it's more generally an aversion against too much vowel reduction. The more vowel reduction you have in a Germanic language, the more it resembles Enlish, IMHO. Fusing several words into one increases the amount of reduced vowels.Salmoneus wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018 01:06Curious - it's the exact opposite of English (in that English stressed the noun there, destressing and dramatically reducing the numeral - ainaz flaskaz aba > @flAsk@. And I don't think we have a similar category of counters, either. (I guess we do do this with qualifiers - somebody, someone, something, etc).Creyeditor wrote: ↑23 Nov 2018 19:04 I have to admit that I don't like it. It makes it look like English to my mind.
- Creyeditor
- MVP
- Posts: 5091
- Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32
Re: Lapdeutsch
Also true, though it looks more like Missingsch to me
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
Re: Lapdeutsch
I had never actually heard of Missingsch! It definitely has some similarities with it and both are very much stigmatized to some degree. Now you've got me looking up Klein Erna jokes
Re: Lapdeutsch
Feminine Agent Nouns Suffixes
In contrast to German which mostly just has the suffix -in, Lapdeutsch has a wide variety of suffixes used to create feminine agent nouns from masculine ones.
-er → -ster
By far the most common way to form the feminine form from the suffix -er
Bäcker → Bäckster (baker)
Schreiver → Schreivster (writer)
-er → -e
Not very commonly used. Right now I can only think of two words that uses it
Deutscher → Deutsche (German)
Widwer (widower) → Widwe (widow)
-er → -vrou
Any umlauted stems remove their umlaut before this suffix. This -vrou is seen not as a suffix but as forming a compound word, and thus spelling changes involving long vowels aren't undertaken in writing. The plural form vrouen is very often pronounced as /frɔʊ̯n/ when used as a suffix but is never written as such. This suffix occurs in 3 different situations:
1. When forming the feminine form for demonyms ending in -er such as:
Amerikaner → Amerikanvrou (American)
Berliner → Berlinvrou (Berliner)
Italiëner → Italiënvrou (Italian)
Nederländer (Dutchman) → Nederlandvrou (Dutchwoman)
2. When the stem ends in something that would be difficult to pronounce in succession with -st such as:
Fischer (fisherman) → Fischvrou (fisherwoman)
Künster → Kunstvrou (artist)
Putser (cleaning man) → Putsvrou (cleaning lady/maid)
3. The following 2 sets of words:
Bleiker (white man) → Bleikvrou (white woman)
Swarter (black man) → Swartvrou (black woman)
-sch→ -sche
This ending only occurs in demonyms where the masculine singular form ends in -sch. In contrast to the other endings which simply use the masculine plural for collective nouns, the feminine plural is used for the collective plural for these nouns.
Portugeesch → Portugeesche (Portuguese)
Wäälsch (Dutchman pej)→ Wäälsche (Dutchwoman pej)
-→ -sche
This ending only occurs in demonyms that aren't either single syllable or end in -er/-sch. It comes from the feminine form of the adjective ending -sch. In contrast to the other endings which simply use the masculine plural for collective nouns, the feminine plural is used for the collective plural for these nouns.
Engelschmann (Englishman) → Engelsche (Englishwoman)
Franschmann (Frenchman) → Fransche (Frenchwoman)
Noorschmann → Noorsche (Norwegian)
Spaanjer → Spaansche (Spaniard)
Ungaar → Ungaarsche (Hungarian)
Welschmann (Welshman) → Welsche (Welshwoman)
-mann → -vrou
All words ending in -mann form their feminine with -vrou
Brandweermann (fireman) → Brandweervrou (female firefighter)
- → -vrou
Occasionally, the -vrou ending is simply added to the masculine form. This form is always used for -er when meaning year-old and it's also often used to refer to the wife of the masculine form but not always
Feiver → Feivervrou (five year-old)
Fischer (fisherman) → Fischervrou (fisherman's wife)
Jäger → Jägervrou (hunter)
- → -e
Another fairly rare ending
Ingenieur → Ingenieure (engineer)
Matros → Matrose (sailor)
Wees → Weese (orphan; feminine plural used for the collective plural for this specific term)
- → -ess
Not particularly common but used with some common words. This ending is always stressed.
Afgod → Afgoddess (idol)
Dichter → Dichtress (poet)
Lerer → Lereress (teacher)
Meister (master) → Meistress (mistress)
Mörder → Mördress (murderer)
Prins (prince) → Prinsess (princess)
-/-er → -igge
Another rare suffix. Pretty much exclusively used for rural related vocab
Herder → Herdigge (shepherd)
Melker (milker) → Melkigge (milkmaid)
-us/-o → -a
Often used for terms borrowed from Latin and Romance languages
Medicus → Medica (medic)
Leno → Lena (whore)
-eur → -euse
Essentially exclusively used for words from French. Some words ending in -teur fall into this pattern rather than the one below
Dompteur → Dompteuse (animal trainer)
Masseur (masseur) → Masseuse (masseuse)
Regisseur → Regisseuse (director)
-tor/-teur → -trits
Acteur (actor) → Actrits (actress)
Autor → Autrits (author)
Senator → Senatrits (senator)
- → -̈in
Used for most single syllable words including demonyms
Arts → Ärtsin (doctor)
Dän → Dänin (Dane)
Fründ → Fründin (friend)
God (god) → Göddin (goddess)
Held (hero) → Heldin (heroine)
Kok → Kökin (cook)
Türk → Türkin (Turk)
Irregular
Some feminine forms are irregular and have to be memorized such as a following
Abt (abbot) → Äbtiss (Abbess)
Brüdegem (bridegroom) → Brud (bride)
Imker → Immenvrou (beekeeper)
Kellner (waiter) → Kellervrou (waitress)
Singer → Sangvrou (singer)
Sükpleger → Süksuster (nurse)
Tovermann (wizard/warlock) → Tüsche (witch)
In contrast to German which mostly just has the suffix -in, Lapdeutsch has a wide variety of suffixes used to create feminine agent nouns from masculine ones.
-er → -ster
By far the most common way to form the feminine form from the suffix -er
Bäcker → Bäckster (baker)
Schreiver → Schreivster (writer)
-er → -e
Not very commonly used. Right now I can only think of two words that uses it
Deutscher → Deutsche (German)
Widwer (widower) → Widwe (widow)
-er → -vrou
Any umlauted stems remove their umlaut before this suffix. This -vrou is seen not as a suffix but as forming a compound word, and thus spelling changes involving long vowels aren't undertaken in writing. The plural form vrouen is very often pronounced as /frɔʊ̯n/ when used as a suffix but is never written as such. This suffix occurs in 3 different situations:
1. When forming the feminine form for demonyms ending in -er such as:
Amerikaner → Amerikanvrou (American)
Berliner → Berlinvrou (Berliner)
Italiëner → Italiënvrou (Italian)
Nederländer (Dutchman) → Nederlandvrou (Dutchwoman)
2. When the stem ends in something that would be difficult to pronounce in succession with -st such as:
Fischer (fisherman) → Fischvrou (fisherwoman)
Künster → Kunstvrou (artist)
Putser (cleaning man) → Putsvrou (cleaning lady/maid)
3. The following 2 sets of words:
Bleiker (white man) → Bleikvrou (white woman)
Swarter (black man) → Swartvrou (black woman)
-sch→ -sche
This ending only occurs in demonyms where the masculine singular form ends in -sch. In contrast to the other endings which simply use the masculine plural for collective nouns, the feminine plural is used for the collective plural for these nouns.
Portugeesch → Portugeesche (Portuguese)
Wäälsch (Dutchman pej)→ Wäälsche (Dutchwoman pej)
-→ -sche
This ending only occurs in demonyms that aren't either single syllable or end in -er/-sch. It comes from the feminine form of the adjective ending -sch. In contrast to the other endings which simply use the masculine plural for collective nouns, the feminine plural is used for the collective plural for these nouns.
Engelschmann (Englishman) → Engelsche (Englishwoman)
Franschmann (Frenchman) → Fransche (Frenchwoman)
Noorschmann → Noorsche (Norwegian)
Spaanjer → Spaansche (Spaniard)
Ungaar → Ungaarsche (Hungarian)
Welschmann (Welshman) → Welsche (Welshwoman)
-mann → -vrou
All words ending in -mann form their feminine with -vrou
Brandweermann (fireman) → Brandweervrou (female firefighter)
- → -vrou
Occasionally, the -vrou ending is simply added to the masculine form. This form is always used for -er when meaning year-old and it's also often used to refer to the wife of the masculine form but not always
Feiver → Feivervrou (five year-old)
Fischer (fisherman) → Fischervrou (fisherman's wife)
Jäger → Jägervrou (hunter)
- → -e
Another fairly rare ending
Ingenieur → Ingenieure (engineer)
Matros → Matrose (sailor)
Wees → Weese (orphan; feminine plural used for the collective plural for this specific term)
- → -ess
Not particularly common but used with some common words. This ending is always stressed.
Afgod → Afgoddess (idol)
Dichter → Dichtress (poet)
Lerer → Lereress (teacher)
Meister (master) → Meistress (mistress)
Mörder → Mördress (murderer)
Prins (prince) → Prinsess (princess)
-/-er → -igge
Another rare suffix. Pretty much exclusively used for rural related vocab
Herder → Herdigge (shepherd)
Melker (milker) → Melkigge (milkmaid)
-us/-o → -a
Often used for terms borrowed from Latin and Romance languages
Medicus → Medica (medic)
Leno → Lena (whore)
-eur → -euse
Essentially exclusively used for words from French. Some words ending in -teur fall into this pattern rather than the one below
Dompteur → Dompteuse (animal trainer)
Masseur (masseur) → Masseuse (masseuse)
Regisseur → Regisseuse (director)
-tor/-teur → -trits
Acteur (actor) → Actrits (actress)
Autor → Autrits (author)
Senator → Senatrits (senator)
- → -̈in
Used for most single syllable words including demonyms
Arts → Ärtsin (doctor)
Dän → Dänin (Dane)
Fründ → Fründin (friend)
God (god) → Göddin (goddess)
Held (hero) → Heldin (heroine)
Kok → Kökin (cook)
Türk → Türkin (Turk)
Irregular
Some feminine forms are irregular and have to be memorized such as a following
Abt (abbot) → Äbtiss (Abbess)
Brüdegem (bridegroom) → Brud (bride)
Imker → Immenvrou (beekeeper)
Kellner (waiter) → Kellervrou (waitress)
Singer → Sangvrou (singer)
Sükpleger → Süksuster (nurse)
Tovermann (wizard/warlock) → Tüsche (witch)
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 19 Aug 2020 18:17, edited 18 times in total.
- Creyeditor
- MVP
- Posts: 5091
- Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32
Re: Lapdeutsch
I think I heard of all of these in either German or Low German, except the -st- suffix. What was the inspiration? English? French? Dutch? I'm a bit lost.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
Re: Lapdeutsch
-ster is a general Germanic feminine agent suffix. In English, it's become unisex (barrister, teamster, gangster, trickster, dumpster, etc), but in Dutch the original -er/-ster male/female alternation has been retained, as in Lapdeutsch.Creyeditor wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018 10:18I think I heard of all of these in either German or Low German, except the -st- suffix. What was the inspiration? English? French? Dutch? I'm a bit lost.
Wiktionary offers PGmc -istrijo:n or -astrijo:n. The former is probably earlier, as it comes from PIE -is (feminine suffix) + -ter (agent suffix), but the latter seems to be needed for Old High German, which had -astria. However, there may be a PIE complication there, as some of the -i suffixes (I know -i2, and iirc also -is and maybe also -iks) originally had ablaut variations (-i2 vs -ye2), which may be the origin of the form preserved in OHG?
Re: Lapdeutsch
I’ll also add that according to Wiktionary the -ster suffix was present in Old Low GermanSalmoneus wrote: ↑05 Dec 2018 01:40-ster is a general Germanic feminine agent suffix. In English, it's become unisex (barrister, teamster, gangster, trickster, dumpster, etc), but in Dutch the original -er/-ster male/female alternation has been retained, as in Lapdeutsch.Creyeditor wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018 10:18I think I heard of all of these in either German or Low German, except the -st- suffix. What was the inspiration? English? French? Dutch? I'm a bit lost.
Wiktionary offers PGmc -istrijo:n or -astrijo:n. The former is probably earlier, as it comes from PIE -is (feminine suffix) + -ter (agent suffix), but the latter seems to be needed for Old High German, which had -astria. However, there may be a PIE complication there, as some of the -i suffixes (I know -i2, and iirc also -is and maybe also -iks) originally had ablaut variations (-i2 vs -ye2), which may be the origin of the form preserved in OHG?
- Creyeditor
- MVP
- Posts: 5091
- Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32
Re: Lapdeutsch
Wow, I didn't know about these. Thank you twoSalmoneus wrote: ↑05 Dec 2018 01:40-ster is a general Germanic feminine agent suffix. In English, it's become unisex (barrister, teamster, gangster, trickster, dumpster, etc), but in Dutch the original -er/-ster male/female alternation has been retained, as in Lapdeutsch.Creyeditor wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018 10:18I think I heard of all of these in either German or Low German, except the -st- suffix. What was the inspiration? English? French? Dutch? I'm a bit lost.
Wiktionary offers PGmc -istrijo:n or -astrijo:n. The former is probably earlier, as it comes from PIE -is (feminine suffix) + -ter (agent suffix), but the latter seems to be needed for Old High German, which had -astria. However, there may be a PIE complication there, as some of the -i suffixes (I know -i2, and iirc also -is and maybe also -iks) originally had ablaut variations (-i2 vs -ye2), which may be the origin of the form preserved in OHG?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
Re: Lapdeutsch
No problem . I'm curious though. You said you thought you had seen all of the other suffixes used in either German or Low German. Where have you seen Frau/Fro used as a suffix to create the feminine from the masculine? I thought it was something I thought of and am surprised to hear it might actually already be present. Obviously there are words like Putzfrau which use the -frau to mark the feminine, but I haven't heard of it being used in ways similar to how Lapdeutsch does it before.
Re: Lapdeutsch
Well, old-fashioned English used -wife as a feminising suffix a lot. In particular, your use pairing -mann and -frou is mirrored in English: a man who works with or sells fish is a fishman (among other things), while a woman who works with or sells fish is a fishwife. Likewise aleman/alewife, oyster man/oyster wife, and more generally goodman (male head of household) vs goodwife (female head of household). Other examples used to be in use, but are now even more archaic than these ones.