Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread [2011–2018]

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
LinguoFranco
greek
greek
Posts: 613
Joined: 20 Jul 2016 17:49
Location: U.S.

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by LinguoFranco »

I am thinking about making some changes to this phonemic inventory.\

/a ə e ɪ o u/ <a e i o u>
/p t k b d g ʔ q ɢ/ <p t k b d g h q >
/m n ŋ ɲ/ <m n ng ny>
/β ɕ ʑ x /<v s z x>
/ɾ l j/ <r l y>
/tɕ/ <j>

I originally had /tʑ/, but I don't think many languages would distinguish between /ʑ/ and /tʑ/. I am also wondering if I should keep /q/ and /ɢ/, though I don't have a Romanization for the latter. I'm trying to go for a pleasant sound for this language, without it being too soft or harsh sounding.

One more thing, I might replace /ɾ/ with either /ɻ/ or /ɹ/. I can't pronounce the trilled /r/, so I had to use something else. /ɹ/ comes the most naturally to me, but I also find the retroflex one mentioned to also be fairly easy to pronounce.
Clio
sinic
sinic
Posts: 228
Joined: 27 Dec 2012 23:45

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Clio »

Three vowel systems:

/i ɨ u/
/e ɘ o/
/ɛ ɔ/
/a/
/s̩ f̩/

/i u/
/e ə o/
/ɛ ɔ/
/a/
/ai au/

/i u/
/e ə o/
/æ ɑ/

Tone interacts with vowel quality in these languages, so not all vowels can take all possible tones. This phenomenon is the continuation of another, older pitch-accent system.

The third inventory is the simplest, so we'll deal with it first. All seven vowels can have any tone or tone contour: high, low, rising, falling, breathy rising, or breathy falling. These six tones appear in all three languages.

For the first inventory, the vowels /i ɨ u ɛ ɔ a/ can take any tone. The rest can only take high or low tone.

In the second inventory, it's /e o ɛ ɔ a ai au/ that can take any tone, although high and low /ɛ ɔ/ are marginal. Some dialects have further innovated so that /i u/ can have all six tones; these dialects also lost /ai au/ through a chain shift and tend to either never have high and low /ɛ ɔ/ or only have them in loanwords.
Niûro nCora
Getic: longum Getico murmur in ore fuit
scratchpad
User avatar
Man in Space
roman
roman
Posts: 1304
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 08:07
Location: Ohio

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Man in Space »

Archaic Wǫkratąk

/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ>
/mb nd ŋg/ <ṃb ṇd ṇg>
/p b t d k g/ <p b t d k g>
/h/ <h>
/w r/ <w r>

/ɔ ɔ̃ a ã ɛ ɛ̃ i/ <o ǫ a ą e ę i>
Twin Aster megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
jimydog000
greek
greek
Posts: 583
Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
Location: Australia

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by jimydog000 »

/b t d c ɖ k g/
/β s~z ɫ x h/
/l w ʍ ɻ/
/r/

/i u/
/ɛ~e/
/a ɒ/
A signature.
jimydog000
greek
greek
Posts: 583
Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
Location: Australia

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by jimydog000 »

Frislander wrote: Nice, but small thing: in the one or two languages I've seen with contrastive palatalisation (which I think are all Northwest Caucasian) ejective consonants can also be palatal, since the two features are formed in completely different places (the glottis and the palate) and are therefore not mutually exclusive.
I didn't think about that, since palatalised glottal stop doesn't work... bleh, they could easily merge or just not have arised.
Here's an orthography:

/p pʲ t tʲ k kʲ ʔ/ <p pj t tj k ky '>
/b bʲ d dʲ g gʲ/ <b by d dy g gy>
/pʼ tʼ kʼ/ <x c q>
/m mʲ n nʲ ŋ ŋʲ/ <m mj n ny ng ngy>
/w~v lʲ r rʲ ʕ/ <w ly r rj h>

/i ɨ u~ɯ/ <i y u>
/ɛ ɜ/ <é e>
/a/ <a>

C(X)V(C)
X is [w, r, ʕ] only when [b, p, t, d, k, g] is the first consonant, [tr] and [dr] don't occur.
stress is phonemic in either first or second syllable.
Word initial glottal stop only when stress is on the first syllable.
Coda stops unvoiced.
A signature.
User avatar
Frislander
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2088
Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
Location: The North

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander »

Linguifex wrote:Archaic Wǫkratąk

/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ>
/mb nd ŋg/ <ṃb ṇd ṇg>
/p b t d k g/ <p b t d k g>
/h/ <h>
/w r/ <w r>

/ɔ ɔ̃ a ã ɛ ɛ̃ i/ <o ǫ a ą e ę i>
Nice!
jimydog000 wrote:
Frislander wrote: Nice, but small thing: in the one or two languages I've seen with contrastive palatalisation (which I think are all Northwest Caucasian) ejective consonants can also be palatal, since the two features are formed in completely different places (the glottis and the palate) and are therefore not mutually exclusive.
I didn't think about that, since palatalised glottal stop doesn't work... bleh, they could easily merge or just not have arised.
Here's an orthography:

/p pʲ t tʲ k kʲ ʔ/ <p pj t tj k ky '>
/b bʲ d dʲ g gʲ/ <b by d dy g gy>
/pʼ tʼ kʼ/ <x c q>
/m mʲ n nʲ ŋ ŋʲ/ <m mj n ny ng ngy>
/w~v lʲ r rʲ ʕ/ <w ly r rj h>

/i ɨ u~ɯ/ <i y u>
/ɛ ɜ/ <é e>
/a/ <a>

C(X)V(C)
X is [w, r, ʕ] only when [b, p, t, d, k, g] is the first consonant, [tr] and [dr] don't occur.
stress is phonemic in either first or second syllable.
Word initial glottal stop only when stress is on the first syllable.
Coda stops unvoiced.
Actually a palatalised glottal stop is phonemic in some languages.
User avatar
Frislander
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2088
Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
Location: The North

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander »

/p pʷ t̪ t͡s t͡ʃ kʷ q qʷ/
/f (fʷ) ɬ̪ s ʃ ħ h/
/z ʒ/
/m mʷ n̪/
/l̪ r j w/

/ə a/

The vowels /ə a/ are fronted to /i e/ when adjacent /t͡s t͡ʃ s ʃ z ʒ j/ and rounded to /u o/ when adjacent to /pʷ kʷ qʷ (fʷ) mʷ w/.

Syllable structure is (C)V(C)
Auvon
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 104
Joined: 27 Aug 2016 08:48

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Auvon »

Frislander wrote:/p pʷ t̪ t͡s t͡ʃ kʷ q qʷ/
/f (fʷ) ɬ̪ s ʃ ħ h/
/z ʒ/
/m mʷ n̪/
/l̪ r j w/

/ə a/

The vowels /ə a/ are fronted to /i e/ when adjacent /t͡s t͡ʃ s ʃ z ʒ j/ and rounded to /u o/ when adjacent to /pʷ kʷ qʷ (fʷ) mʷ w/.

Syllable structure is (C)V(C)
Nice!
jimydog000
greek
greek
Posts: 583
Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
Location: Australia

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by jimydog000 »

Frislander wrote: Actually a palatalised glottal stop is phonemic in some languages.
I couldn't find any, I'm not a linguist. does my system work/happen IRL/have natural phonology gaps?
A signature.
User avatar
Frislander
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2088
Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
Location: The North

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander »

jimydog000 wrote:
Frislander wrote: Actually a palatalised glottal stop is phonemic in some languages.
I couldn't find any, I'm not a linguist. does my system work/happen IRL/have natural phonology gaps?
Bora. I'm pretty sure I've seen it elsewhere too.
somehomo
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 12
Joined: 19 Mar 2015 19:15

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by somehomo »

Really looking for feedback on this phonology for my as-of-yet unnamed conlang

/n ɲ/ <n nh>
/t t͡ʃ c k/ <t ch c k>
/θ s ʃ ħ/ <th s sh x>
/l j w ʕ/ <l j w r>

/i y u ø ə o ɛ ɔ a/ <i ü u ö ë o e ä a>
/ai au ei eu/ <ai au ei eu>

- Syllable structure is maximally CVC with only alveolar consonants appearing in the syllable coda
- Two vowels in succession indicate seperate syllables (I am thinking of using <h> intervocalically to distinguish from a diphthong and a sequence of vowels, or is it uncommon for diphthongs and identical vowel sequences to contrast?)
- Stress always falls on the first syllable of a word and is not phonemic and does not result in unstressed vowel reduction

Allophony:
Stops are aspirated prevocalically, except intervocalically, where they are voiced
/a/ is raised slightly to [æ] before a pharyngeal consonant
/i y u/ are realized as [ɪ ʏ ʊ] before resonant consonants

Vowel harmony:
Vowel harmony is based on +/-ATR, with /i/ being neutral
+ATR vowels: <ü u o e ei eu>
-ATR vowels: <ö ë ä a ai au>
jimydog000
greek
greek
Posts: 583
Joined: 19 Mar 2016 04:14
Location: Australia

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by jimydog000 »

somehomo wrote:Really looking for feedback on this phonology for my as-of-yet unnamed conlang

/n ɲ/ <n nh>
/t t͡ʃ c k/ <t ch c k>
/θ s ʃ ħ/ <th s sh x>
/l j w ʕ/ <l j w r>

/i y u ø ə o ɛ ɔ a/ <i ü u ö ë o e ä a>
/ai au ei eu/ <ai au ei eu>

- Syllable structure is maximally CVC with only alveolar consonants appearing in the syllable coda
- Two vowels in succession indicate seperate syllables (I am thinking of using <h> intervocalically to distinguish from a diphthong and a sequence of vowels, or is it uncommon for diphthongs and identical vowel sequences to contrast?)
- Stress always falls on the first syllable of a word and is not phonemic and does not result in unstressed vowel reduction

Allophony:
Stops are aspirated prevocalically, except intervocalically, where they are voiced
/a/ is raised slightly to [æ] before a pharyngeal consonant
/i y u/ are realized as [ɪ ʏ ʊ] before resonant consonants

Vowel harmony:
Vowel harmony is based on +/-ATR, with /i/ being neutral
+ATR vowels: <ü u o e ei eu>
-ATR vowels: <ö ë ä a ai au>
I usually see the opposite where an a/æ becomes ɑ next to ʕ etc.
Not sure why /ø/ contrasts /e/ in ATR and /au/ being -ATR looks strange unless there's something else going on (regressive harmony? vowel shifts?).
Other then that it looks good.
I did notice there are no true labials BTW.
A signature.
User avatar
Frislander
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2088
Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
Location: The North

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander »

somehomo wrote:Really looking for feedback on this phonology for my as-of-yet unnamed conlang

/n ɲ/ <n nh>
/t t͡ʃ c k/ <t ch c k>
/θ s ʃ ħ/ <th s sh x>
/l j w ʕ/ <l j w r>

/i y u ø ə o ɛ ɔ a/ <i ü u ö ë o e ä a>
/ai au ei eu/ <ai au ei eu>

- Syllable structure is maximally CVC with only alveolar consonants appearing in the syllable coda
- Two vowels in succession indicate seperate syllables (I am thinking of using <h> intervocalically to distinguish from a diphthong and a sequence of vowels, or is it uncommon for diphthongs and identical vowel sequences to contrast?)
- Stress always falls on the first syllable of a word and is not phonemic and does not result in unstressed vowel reduction

Allophony:
Stops are aspirated prevocalically, except intervocalically, where they are voiced
/a/ is raised slightly to [æ] before a pharyngeal consonant
/i y u/ are realized as [ɪ ʏ ʊ] before resonant consonants

Vowel harmony:
Vowel harmony is based on +/-ATR, with /i/ being neutral
+ATR vowels: <ü u o e ei eu>
-ATR vowels: <ö ë ä a ai au>
Consonants: great, little to fault IMO, though you do have a weird voicing contrast in pharyngeals and nowhere else, which is a bit unusual (though not a flaw). The whole thing looks rather Native-American bar the palatal nasal.

The vowels, they look nice as a system, but the harmony looks a bit messy, and almost makes me wonder whether you have completely got the hang of what ATR is. The sets don't seem to line up properly: why are /y ø/ in opposite classes but /u o/ in the same? Why is the -ATR counterpart of /u/ unrounded? Why is there a gap in the close-mid front unrounded vowels; did it originally harmonise with /i/ but later merge with it, thereby making it neutral (which even more begs the question of why the -ATR for /u/ is unrounded when you have /o/? Or did it merge with /ɛ/ which also further begs the question? I could see the system being perfectly natural if it was

+ATR /y u i ɛ ɛi ɛu/ <ü u i ä ei eu>
-ATR /ø o e a ai au/ <ö o e a ai au>

With /ə/ being neutral, but the classes still don't look like they totally match with +/-ATR as the main distinction.

I'm not being mean, I'm just trying to give constructive criticism to improve your system.
jimydog000 wrote:I did notice there are no true labials BTW.
I know, isn't it wonderful?
somehomo
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 12
Joined: 19 Mar 2015 19:15

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by somehomo »

Frislander wrote: Consonants: great, little to fault IMO, though you do have a weird voicing contrast in pharyngeals and nowhere else, which is a bit unusual (though not a flaw). The whole thing looks rather Native-American bar the palatal nasal.

The vowels, they look nice as a system, but the harmony looks a bit messy, and almost makes me wonder whether you have completely got the hang of what ATR is. The sets don't seem to line up properly: why are /y ø/ in opposite classes but /u o/ in the same? Why is the -ATR counterpart of /u/ unrounded? Why is there a gap in the close-mid front unrounded vowels; did it originally harmonise with /i/ but later merge with it, thereby making it neutral (which even more begs the question of why the -ATR for /u/ is unrounded when you have /o/? Or did it merge with /ɛ/ which also further begs the question? I could see the system being perfectly natural if it was

+ATR /y u i ɛ ɛi ɛu/ <ü u i ä ei eu>
-ATR /ø o e a ai au/ <ö o e a ai au>

With /ə/ being neutral, but the classes still don't look like they totally match with +/-ATR as the main distinction.

I'm not being mean, I'm just trying to give constructive criticism to improve your system.
The voiced pharyngeal "fricative" patterns more as a approximant, I just didn't use the diacritic for ease of transcription.

I like a height-based harmony like /i ə u/ in contrast with /e a o/ but I want like more vowels than that, and I figured ATR was kinda height based just based on how people transcribe +/-ATR vowels probably. Obviously you're right that I don't really get the hang of ATR haha this is really the first I've concerned myself with ATR harmony and it's a little difficult for me to understand. I wanted to kinda base my system off of Mongolian but throw in some front rounded vowels and I think that's where I screwed up. The reason I patterned /u/ and /ə/ in opposition was because I just don't really like /ʊ/ and I felt that /ʊ/ becoming /ə/ is realistic. Otherwise it was just kind of .. guessing lol.
User avatar
Frislander
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2088
Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
Location: The North

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander »

somehomo wrote:The voiced pharyngeal "fricative" patterns more as a approximant, I just didn't use the diacritic for ease of transcription.
Indeed, so that's all OK then.
I like a height-based harmony like /i ə u/ in contrast with /e a o/ but I want like more vowels than that, and I figured ATR was kinda height based just based on how people transcribe +/-ATR vowels probably. Obviously you're right that I don't really get the hang of ATR haha this is really the first I've concerned myself with ATR harmony and it's a little difficult for me to understand. I wanted to kinda base my system off of Mongolian but throw in some front rounded vowels and I think that's where I screwed up. The reason I patterned /u/ and /ə/ in opposition was because I just don't really like /ʊ/ and I felt that /ʊ/ becoming /ə/ is realistic. Otherwise it was just kind of .. guessing lol.
Actually I'm not really aware of ʊ > ə outside of English. Time to consult the Index Diachronica...

OK so according to the Index the only incidence of that shift outside of English/Scots is a merger with an already present *ə in a couple of Alaskan Athabaskan languages; note that the reflexes of hiostorical *ʊ in all the other languages (of which there are a lot of them, you'll see) remains rounded, most often as /o/ or something similar. So it's not unknown what you propose, just not that common.

Mongolian (or more specifically Khalka Mongolian) is interesting because it was originally a front-back system like so:

Back /a o u/
Front /e ø y/

with /i/ neutral. However, the front-rounded vowels then backed and altered to give more +/-ATR contrast, forming the system as it stands today.

(Also just a reminder note that the system I proposed above lacks /ʊ/)
Davush
greek
greek
Posts: 670
Joined: 10 Jan 2015 14:10

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Davush »

Frislander wrote:
somehomo wrote: Actually I'm not really aware of ʊ > ə outside of English. Time to consult the Index Diachronica...
Kuwaiti and Iraqi Arabic have /ʊ/ > /ǝ/ in most places. /ʊ/ is sometimes an allophone of /ǝ/ (mostly when surrounded by pharyngealised consonants and bilabials).

aktub > aktǝb
kutub > kǝtǝb
qalb > gaɫǝb > gaɫʊb
kull > kǝll/kɪll
User avatar
Frislander
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2088
Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
Location: The North

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander »

Davush wrote:
Frislander wrote:
somehomo wrote: Actually I'm not really aware of ʊ > ə outside of English. Time to consult the Index Diachronica...
Kuwaiti and Iraqi Arabic have /ʊ/ > /ǝ/ in most places. /ʊ/ is sometimes an allophone of /ǝ/ (mostly when surrounded by pharyngealised consonants and bilabials).

aktub > aktǝb
kutub > kǝtǝb
qalb > gaɫǝb > gaɫʊb
kull > kǝll/kɪll
Ah yes forgot about those dialects of Arabic. And there's a merger with /ɪ/ in stressed syllables in Syrian Arabic esp. round Damascus.
User avatar
Frislander
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2088
Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
Location: The North

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander »

Something like Mixtec

/b t t͡ʃ k ʔ/
/m n ɲ/
/ⁿd/
/w j/

/i e ɨ a u o/

/á à a̰ a̤/

CV(ː)
Porphyrogenitos
sinic
sinic
Posts: 401
Joined: 21 Jul 2012 08:01
Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

/m mː n nː ɲ ɲː/
/p t c k/
/f fː θ θː s sː ʃ ʃː x xː h hː/
/l lː/
/w ɾ j/

/i iː u uː e eː o oː æ æː ɑ ɑː/

Singletons alternate with geminates in certain morphonological contexts. The stops, instead of having a singleton/geminate alternation, alternate with certain sonorants: /p/ with /w/, /t/ with /ɾ/, /c/ with /j/, and /k/ with /w/ or /j/ depending on context.

Singleton fricatives are voiced intervocalically, except for /h/; /hː/ is realized as [h̪͆ː] (okay, okay...maybe not. maybe just as [χː]).

Geminates may occur both word-initially and word-finally.
User avatar
CMunk
greek
greek
Posts: 509
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 15:47
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by CMunk »

I am toying around with an idea for a Greenlandic-inspired inventory with consonant harmony.

/m n ŋ ɴ/ <m n g ň>
/p t k q/ <p t k q>
/ɸ s x χ/ <f s c h>
/ʋ l ʟ ʁ/ <v l ł r>

/i u/ <i u>
/a/ <a>

Syllable structure: (C)(V)V(C)

Consonant harmony:
Throughout a word, place of articulation of the consonants may only go from back to front, or from front to back. Thus affixes are modified to comply with the form of the main word. A word such as /qali/ is "back to front", so a suffix /-la/ can be added unchanged, but the suffix /-ka/ would have to be changed. In such cases, the place of articulation is changed just so much, that the consonant harmony is obeyed.

/qali/ + /la/ > /qalila/ <qalila>
/qali/ + /ka/ > /qalita/ <qalita>
/qalima/ + /la/ > /qalimaʋa/ <qalimava>
/qalima/ + /ka/ > /qalimapa/ <qalimapa>

Same goes for words that are "front to back":
/taŋu/ + /la/ > /taŋuʟa/ <taguła>
/taŋu/ + /ka/ > /taŋuka/ <taguka>
/taŋuχa/ + /la/ > /taŋuχaʁa/ <taguhara>
/taŋuχa/ + /ka/ > /taŋuχaqa/ <taguhaqa>

Words that only have one place of articulation are neutral, but they gain harmony, when they are affixed with another place of articulation:
/tini/ + /la/ > /tinila/ <tinila> (neutral)
/tini/ + /ka/ > /tinika/ <tinika> (front to back)
/tini/ + /la/ + /ka/ > /tinilaka/ <tinilaka> (front to back)
/tini/ + /ka/ + /la/ > /tinikaʟa/ <tinikała> (front to back)

Loan words will have to be adjusted, so they retain as much of their form as possible, while still obeying consonant harmony:
Denmark - /tanmak/ > front to back > /tannak/ <Tannak>
England - /iŋlanta/ > back to front > /iŋlanta/ <Iglanta>
Hawaii - /χauai/ > neutral > /χauai/ <Hauai>
India - /intia/ > neutral > /intia/ <Intia>
Ireland - /illanta/ > neutral > /illanta/ <Illanta>
Kuala Lumpur - /kualalumpul/ > back to front > /kualalumpuʋ/ <Kualalumpuv>
Pakistan - /pakistan/ > front to back > /pakixkaŋ/ <Pakickag>
Poland - /polanta/ > front to back > /polanta/ <Polanta>
Scotland - /iskutlanta/ > back to front > /ixkutlanta/ <Ickutlanta>
Spain - /ispania/ > front to back > /iɸpania/ <Ifpania>
Native: :dan: | Fluent: :uk: | Less than fluent: :deu:, :jpn:, :epo: | Beginner: Image, :fao:, :non:
Creating: :con:Jwar Nong, :con:Mhmmz
Locked