Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread [2011–2018]

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Porphyrogenitos
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

DesEsseintes wrote:
I agree about merging /ki/ and /ti/ and this will only occur intermorphemically (i.e. no morphemes should contain /ki/). I'm considering adding sibilants (kinda inevitable if I'm actually gonna make this a Japonic language and not just a Japonic-inspired language). If so /hi/ and /si/ will have a similar merger, and we get this:

Code: Select all

    a     e     i     u     we
h   ha         (shi)  fu    hwe
k   ka         (chi)  ku    kwe
m   ma          mi
t         te    chi   tsu
s         se    shi   su
n         ne    ni    nu    nwe
r         re    ri    ru    rwe
w   wa   (we)   wi
y         ye          yu    ywe
That's 32 syllables. Creeping up, but I don't mind that. Syllabic/moraic /m n s/ anyone?
Tbh I like it better without the sibilant, I think - not having it gives it more of a minimalist charm. And there could easily be a Japonic language without any sibilants, considering how commonplace unconditional /s/ > /h/ shifts are.

But I guess if you do want it to be Japonic then at some point it will probably diverge further from the 26-ish original syllables, with codas and such. I'd be curious to see what you could do with just what you have here, though, if only as a Japonic-inspired conlang.
Frislander wrote:My entry into the challenge (It's a bit of a rehash of a previous idea I posted up here a couple of weeks back.

/pˠ pʲ tˠ sʲ/
/mˠ mʲ nˠ ɲ/
/ɾ ʎ/
/w βʲ j/

/ɨ a/

Syllable structure is CV. /ɨ/ is realised as after velarised consonants and after palatalised ones, with word-initial /wɨ jɨ/ being realised as .


Nice! So does /ɨ/ stay [ɨ] after /ɾ/, or does /ɾ/ function as the velarized counterpart of /ʎ/? And it looks rather Oceanic.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by opipik »

t k m n s ɣ
i u a ɑ
all possible syllables:
[tæ ʨi tʰu tˤɑ kæ kɕi kʰu~xu qɑ mɒ̃ mjɪ̃ mʷũ nã ɲĩ nũ ŋɑ sa ɕi sʰu ja ɣɑ ji wu]
<te chi tu ta ke ki ku ka ma mi mu na nyi nu nga sa shi su ya ga yi wu>
Porphyrogenitos
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

This was originally supposed to be another 26-syllable phonology, but it got out of hand. If /aː/ merges with /a/ maybe it could get back down to 26.

Code: Select all

     a     i     u     aː
p    pa   (pu)   pu    paː
t    ta    si    tsu   taː
k    ka   (si)   kʍu   kaː
b    ba   (bu)   bu   (maː)
d    da    dʒi   dzu  (naː)
g    ga   (dʒi)  gwu  (ŋaː)
m    ma    mi   (ŋwu)  maː
ɲ   (ŋa)   ɲi   (ŋwu)  ɲaː
ŋ    ŋa   (ɲi)   ŋwu   ŋaː

saː tsaː kʍaː dʒaː dzaː gwaː ŋwaː ɲaː
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DesEsseintes
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DesEsseintes »

Porphyrogenitos wrote:This was originally supposed to be another 26-syllable phonology, but it got out of hand. If /aː/ merges with /a/ maybe it could get back down to 26.

Code: Select all

     a     i     u     aː
p    pa   (pu)   pu    paː
t    ta    si    tsu   taː
k    ka   (si)   kʍu   kaː
b    ba   (bu)   bu   (maː)
d    da    dʒi   dzu  (naː)
g    ga   (dʒi)  gwu  (ŋaː)
m    ma    mi   (ŋwu)  maː
ɲ   (ŋa)   ɲi   (ŋwu)  ɲaː
ŋ    ŋa   (ɲi)   ŋwu   ŋaː

saː tsaː kʍaː dʒaː dzaː gwaː ŋwaː ɲaː
What's stopping you from analysing Caː as Ca.a? Is syllable structure strictly CV?
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Frislander
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander »

Porphyrogenitos wrote:
Frislander wrote:My entry into the challenge (It's a bit of a rehash of a previous idea I posted up here a couple of weeks back.

/pˠ pʲ tˠ sʲ/
/mˠ mʲ nˠ ɲ/
/ɾ ʎ/
/w βʲ j/

/ɨ a/

Syllable structure is CV. /ɨ/ is realised as after velarised consonants and after palatalised ones, with word-initial /wɨ jɨ/ being realised as .


Nice! So does /ɨ/ stay [ɨ] after /ɾ/, or does /ɾ/ function as the velarized counterpart of /ʎ/? And it looks rather Oceanic.


Actually yes it is, it should probably have the velarisation diacritic. And yeah that is kind of the point with the aesthetic.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

DesEsseintes wrote: What's stopping you from analysing Caː as Ca.a? Is syllable structure strictly CV?
Oh, you're right, wow. That would be simpler. (I had been imagining a nasal coda, and that all nasal rhymes collapsed to /ə̃ː/ and then /aː/.) So I tried out a couple sound changes and then reorganized the chart, reanalyzing /aː/ as /a.a/, and I realized it just produced so many convoluted and arbitrary gaps that the whole system would probably just rapidly collapse in on itself and analogize new instances of every "impermissible" syllable at morphemic boundaries.
Frislander wrote:
Actually yes it is, it should probably have the velarisation diacritic. And yeah that is kind of the point with the aesthetic.
Ah okay that makes sense. I really like this little phonology - I myself have never been good at articulating velarized or palatalized consonants but I think I could manage it here. I'm kind of wanting to do something with it (or the earlier version you posted a couple weeks ago) if you're not already using it.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander »

Porphyrogenitos wrote:
Frislander wrote:
Actually yes it is, it should probably have the velarisation diacritic. And yeah that is kind of the point with the aesthetic.
Ah okay that makes sense. I really like this little phonology - I myself have never been good at articulating velarized or palatalized consonants but I think I could manage it here. I'm kind of wanting to do something with it (or the earlier version you posted a couple weeks ago) if you're not already using it.
Take it! Barely anything I post on this thread ends up getting used by me in a conlang.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Auvon »

Protolang:

/p b tʰ t d kʰ k ɡ/ (the coronal occlusive stops are dental)
/t̠͡r̥ʲ d̠͡rʲ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ (the 'trilled affricates' might not have actually been that, they have various reflexes as palatals, laterals, fricatives, and affricates and are transcribed <t̰ d̰>)
/s ʃ x h/ (/s/ is alveolar)
/m̥ m n̥ n ŋ̥ ŋ/ (the coronal nasal stops are dental)
/r̥ r/
/l̥ l/ (the laterals and trills are alveolar)
/j w/ (voiceless counterparts of these both merged into /ʃ, x/ at various points in pre-proto)

/i u e ə o a/ (and height harmony, with /i u ə/ and /e o a/)

And a descendent of it:

/p b t̪ d̪ t d t͡ʃ d͡ʒ c ɟ k ɡ/
/f v s z ʃ ʒ/
/m n̪ n ɲ ŋ/
/ɾ/
/r/
/l̪ l ʎ/
/j/

/i iː y yː u uː e eː ø øː ə əː o oː a aː/
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Frislander
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander »

/b t t͡ʃ k q/
/ɬ s h/
/m n ŋ/

/i iː y yː u uː/
/e eː (ø) øː (o) oː/
/a aː/

Underlying long vowels are shortened in unstressed syllables (see below): the mid-rounded vowels, derived from historical *oi and *au, only occur short allophonically in this environment.

Phonotactics are (C)V(C), where zero-onset syllables only occur word-initially, while /ŋ/ does not occur in that position. Intervocalic clusters are subject to assimilation rules: when two stops come into contact, the whole cluster assimilates to the voicing of the second consonant, while when a velar and a uvular come into contact the whole cluster is pronounced as a uvular irrespective of order.

There is a progressive front-back-harmony system in the language, extending not only to vowels but consonants as well, specifically the dorsal obstruents. The relevant phonemes fall into front and back sets as given below, with some vowels (and instances thereof) being neutral.

Code: Select all

F    |    B
t͡ʃ   |    k
k    |    q
y(ː) | u(ː)
ø(ː) | o(ː)
e(ː) | a(ː)
All other consonants are neutral and transparent to these harmony rules. Additionally /i/, /iː/ and some instances of /eː/ (and unstressed /e/) are neutral for harmony. This can be explained historically, with harmonising instances of /e eː/ deriving from historical *e(ː) while non-harmonising instances derive from *ai.

Stress is partly determined by pure phonological rules and partly through morphophonology. The main stress is restricted to first two syllables of a word, with successive secondary stresses following on alternate successive syllables. Syllable weight is important for the assignment of stress, with syllables containing underlying short vowels counting as light and those with underlying long vowels counting as heavy. When the first two syllables have different weights, stress automatically falls on the heavy syllable. However, when the first two syllables have the same weight, the position of the stress is morphologically determined (e.g. in nouns some case and number-inflections take initial stress while other take post-initial). If both the syllables are heavy, the vowel in the syllable which ends up unstressed is allophonically shortened.

----

I really quite like this one, I basically did it as a bit of my own take on Yeniseian minus the tones (I may add some later; it'd be interesting to see how they interact with the stress). I think I will use this at some point, though not while I have this much on my plate.
Last edited by Frislander on 24 Jun 2017 14:06, edited 1 time in total.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore »

Frislander wrote: ,,,, Underlying long vowels are shortened in immediately pre-tonic and post-tonic syllables ....
I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to already know what "pre-tonic" and "post-tonic" mean; but I don't.
What do they mean?
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by qwed117 »

eldin raigmore wrote:
Frislander wrote: ,,,, Underlying long vowels are shortened in immediately pre-tonic and post-tonic syllables ....
I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to already know what "pre-tonic" and "post-tonic" mean; but I don't.
What do they mean?
tonic is the stressed syllable in a word.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore »

qwed117 wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to already know what "pre-tonic" and "post-tonic" mean; but I don't.
What do they mean?
tonic is the stressed syllable in a word.
I should have guessed that!
So "pretonic" means "just before the stressed syllable", and "posttonic" means "just after the stressed syllable", right?

What if a word has more than one stressed syllable?
Granted a word can't have more than one primarily-stressed syllable; what if it also has one or more secondarily-stressed syllable(s)?
Do syllables immediately preceding secondarily-stressed syllables count as "pre-tonic", or do syllables immediately following secondarily-stressed syllables count as "post-tonic"?

In languages with rhythmic (secondary) stress, it's rare for there to be two or more consecutive unstressed syllables between a stressed syllable and a word-boundary, or three or more consecutive unstressed syllables between a stressed syllable and another stressed syllable.
Unless that happens, every syllable is either primarily stressed, or secondarily stressed, or next to a primarily-stressed syllable, or next to a secondarily-stressed syllable.
In a language where that never happens, there'd be no point in singling out the unstressed syllables that are just before or just after a secondarily-stressed syllable.

But some languages have polar secondary stress; words have at most one secondarily-stressed syllable.
In such a language a word with five or six or more syllables, if there are such words, might very well have an unstressed syllable that was not next to a stressed syllable, neither a primarily-stressed syllable nor a secondarily-stressed syllable.
In such languages, might it be worth counting the syllable just before or just after the only secondarily-stressed syllable, as pre-tonic or post-tonic respectively?
And if so; is that done?

There are also languages with rhythmic secondary stress that is ternary rather than binary. They, also, might have two unstressed syllables before the first (secondarily or primarily) stressed syllable; or two unstressed syllables after the last (2-arily or 1-arily) stressed syllable; or three or four unstressed syllables between one (1-arily or 2-arily) stressed syllable and the next (1- or 2-arily) stressed syllable.
So the same question applies in those languages;
Are the syllables just before and just after a secondarily-stressed syllable called pretonic and post-tonic?
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 23 Jun 2017 20:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by cromulant »

B eqlmw nr: My response to the 26-syllable challenge. Going for something non-Cartesian, rife with allophony, and gaps that arise systematically from the interaction of features.

[b t d t͡ʃ d͡ʒ k g q f s ʃ m n ŋ r j w] b t d c j k g q f s x m n ng r y w
[æ~ɛ i~ɪ ɑ~ʌ~ɔ u~ʊ] e i a u

Code: Select all

be		  ba
ce	ci	ta
je	ji	da
		    qa	 ku
		    ga    ju
	  fi		   fu
se	xi
me	  	ma
ne	  	nga
re		  ra
ye	yi
		    wa    wu
Last edited by cromulant on 25 Jun 2017 08:34, edited 4 times in total.
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Frislander
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander »

eldin raigmore wrote:
Spoiler:
qwed117 wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to already know what "pre-tonic" and "post-tonic" mean; but I don't.
What do they mean?
tonic is the stressed syllable in a word.
I should have guessed that!
So "pretonic" means "just before the stressed syllable", and "posttonic" means "just after the stressed syllable", right?

What if a word has more than one stressed syllable?
Granted a word can't have more than one primarily-stressed syllable; what if it also has one or more secondarily-stressed syllable(s)?
Do syllables immediately preceding secondarily-stressed syllables count as "pre-tonic", or do syllables immediately following secondarily-stressed syllables count as "post-tonic"?

In languages with rhythmic (secondary) stress, it's rare for there to be two or more consecutive unstressed syllables between a stressed syllable and a word-boundary, or three or more consecutive unstressed syllables between a stressed syllable and another stressed syllable.
Unless that happens, every syllable is either primarily stressed, or secondarily stressed, or next to a primarily-stressed syllable, or next to a secondarily-stressed syllable.
In a language where that never happens, there'd be no point in singling out the unstressed syllables that are just before or just after a secondarily-stressed syllable.

But some languages have polar secondary stress; words have at most one secondarily-stressed syllable.
In such a language a word with five or six or more syllables, if there are such words, might very well have an unstressed syllable that was not next to a stressed syllable, neither a primarily-stressed syllable nor a secondarily-stressed syllable.
In such languages, might it be worth counting the syllable just before or just after the only secondarily-stressed syllable, as pre-tonic or post-tonic respectively?
And if so; is that done?

There are also languages with rhythmic secondary stress that is ternary rather than binary. They, also, might have two unstressed syllables before the first (secondarily or primarily) stressed syllable; or two unstressed syllables after the last (2-arily or 1-arily) stressed syllable; or three or four unstressed syllables between one (1-arily or 2-arily) stressed syllable and the next (1- or 2-arily) stressed syllable.
So the same question applies in those languages;
Are the syllables just before and just after a secondarily-stressed syllable called pretonic and post-tonic?
You raise some valid points there, so I'm gonna simplify my wording to unstressed syllables. The terms "pre-tonic" and "post-tonic" are still useful terms, because in some languages vowels reduce in one but not the other, for instance.

And yes, I guess you'd use the same terminology with secondary stress as you do with primary.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Clio »

Late to the 26-syllable party

Code: Select all

   ɨ  ə  a
p  pu po pɔ
t  ti te tɛ
k  kɨ kə ka
m  mu mo mɔ
n  ni ne nɛ
w  u  o  ɔ
j  i  e  ɛ
ɰ  ɨ  ə  a
h     hə ha
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DV82LECM
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DV82LECM »

Clio wrote:Late to the 26-syllable party

Code: Select all

   ɨ  ə  a
p  pu po pɔ
t  ti te tɛ
k  kɨ kə ka
m  mu mo mɔ
n  ni ne nɛ
w  u  o  ɔ
j  i  e  ɛ
ɰ  ɨ  ə  a
h     hə ha
Sexy, my friend! Easily my favorite...
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by xroox »

26 syllables challengeː

pi pa pə pn
ta tu tə tn
ki ku kə ka kn
bi ba bə bn
da du də dn
gi gu gə ga gn
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cedh
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by cedh »

DV82LECM wrote:
Clio wrote:Late to the 26-syllable party

Code: Select all

   ɨ  ə  a
p  pu po pɔ
t  ti te tɛ
k  kɨ kə ka
m  mu mo mɔ
n  ni ne nɛ
w  u  o  ɔ
j  i  e  ɛ
ɰ  ɨ  ə  a
h     hə ha
Sexy, my friend! Easily my favorite...
I think I'd personally replace [hə] with [sɨ] (and probably have some of the underlying approximants actually surface ((maybe fortified to [v ʒ ʁ] or something)), depending on the preceding vowel somehow), but yes, it's quite nice!
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DV82LECM »

cedh wrote:
DV82LECM wrote:
Clio wrote:Late to the 26-syllable party

Code: Select all

   ɨ  ə  a
p  pu po pɔ
t  ti te tɛ
k  kɨ kə ka
m  mu mo mɔ
n  ni ne nɛ
w  u  o  ɔ
j  i  e  ɛ
ɰ  ɨ  ə  a
h     hə ha
Sexy, my friend! Easily my favorite...
I think I'd personally replace [hə] with [sɨ] (and probably have some of the underlying approximants actually surface ((maybe fortified to [v ʒ ʁ] or something)), depending on the preceding vowel somehow), but yes, it's quite nice!
I would be in agreement about the first part if I didn't like the continuity going on. In my version, I had a hard time liking /hɨ/ when it came up. And, once again, involving the second part about fortition, for continuity's sake, I like what he/she has going, but I wouldn't mind seeing that happen either.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by cromulant »

Here's another 26-syllable lang.

Onsets: a i u
Codas: p pm t tn m mp n nt

Word-finally, i and u are also allowable syllables.
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